Supreme Court upholds TikTok ban, but Trump might offer lifeline
(cnbc.com)960 points by kjhughes 2 months ago
960 points by kjhughes 2 months ago
They'll be on RedNote within 2 weeks.
Other's have said it; but TikTok was such a nice format for media. It emphasized what the creator can provide its users; what content was legit; entertaining, informative, etc.
Whereas Instagram and FB are more about personal "branding". You post the best version of yourself and it's rewarded with engagement. Where on TikTok the emphasis is on the content; even creators I follow and have seen dozens of videos on I couldn't tell you what their account name was.
On TikTok you put up or you were shut up.
The experience, in the end, was always on point for shortform content. Nothing else like it exists; and I don't think American tech can make it because they benefit too much from being ad networks. Maybe YouTube shorts.
I've heard the algorithms for YouTube shorts are much worse. Most people have said the best thing about TikTok is how well it learns the content you want to see.
Shorts, Instagram Reels and whatever Facebook calls its copy of it.
All of them are so bad it's not worth it.
YouTube essentially does what every big stupid US-based social media algorithm does: If you like cat videos, it serves you more and more cat videos.
Because YT is longform content and the UI isn't a scrolling feed it's OK. I appreciate the different-ness than TikTok (which is why YouTube shorts is kind of annoying actually)
TikTok's algorithm gives you more of what you like, too. But it also feeds you just... random stuff. Content adjacent to your hobbies. Or content that seems to be somewhat popular with people who frequent the niches you frequent. Feeding you a lot of uninteresting videos is low risk; user's still appreciate the variety even when the algo isn't on point.
"My algo has gone off the deep end" is a common trope amongst TikTok users. Bc every now and then TikTok would pull in a lot of new/unrelated stuff for you to check out. And you just scroll by the stuff that isn't of interest. This is how its algo gets good; it's a UX heuristic as much as an algo one.
It's an important distinction because it exposes users to new content, which is fun. YT doesn't do that as much, so YT's content recs can be dull as paint some times.
You can follow accounts, and they offer a Following tab to keep track of accounts you really like, but the default consumption mode is to use it just like TV. When you're done with a video you scroll to the next. The app uses signals like how long you spent on a video, whether you liked it or not, whether you sent it to friends or not, etc to see how much you like a video. You can also reset your "algorithm" if you find yourself consuming content you don't like.
Most people just scroll the home page yea. Of course you can follow accounts but that’s not the main use case. The algorithm really is mind bogglingly good
Rednote is a fascinating experiment in T and C blindness. Just how far can you go in the terms? Put them in Mandarin worldwide? Apparently OK. Include a commitment to uphold the "12 core socialist values" of the Chinese government? OK. Include rules against criticizing the Chinese government, Chinese socialism, or Chinese interests? I guess that's OK too.
At what point will there be a reaction from industry? From government? I guess there's no reaction point for users. Would China or RedNote try to enforce any of this?
I remember 20 years ago someone putting the right to your firstborn in a software license agreement. No-one reads them, no-one cares, and why would or should they? It's not like companies that ignore their own privacy policy get anything more than a slap on the wrist, so why bother reading it?
>Nothing else like it exists
Have you used Instagram Reels? It's nearly the exact same thing.
It’s really not, not even close to the same. The algorithm is really, really bad compared to TikTok. You can’t pause videos, can’t download them, can’t use copyrighted music, the comments are awful and full of bullying and hate and anger. It doesn’t have the powerful tools to actually edit your videos. It doesn’t have the community. Instagram reels just feels like a bad copy of TikTok. It’s also not timely; on TikTok you see things as they happen. News arrives instantly. Stitching enables two way conversations. Everything on Instagram is just recycled crap from two weeks ago on TikTok. I only use instagram to talk to people really; the actual content doesn’t do anything for me.
The problem is that Instagram content is so ... fake? manufactured?
There is very little original creator content in there, it's all semi-professional "influencers" doing heavily scripted skits or just plain stolen stuff (vertical versions of TV shows, movies, stand-up sets etc)
Reels surely will be the winner. That’s surely why Zuckerberg has courted Trump.
I have a lot of Japanese friends and travel between Japan and here frequently. TikTok is huge in Japan and a lot of my For You Page is content trending in Japanese spheres. I don't live in Japan so being able to plug into Japanese media is a very, very convenient thing.
I'll probably continue trying to use the app if possible since I mostly connect with Japanese content, but I will say there's also a fun world of Japanese creators who straddle the English and Japanese speaking words who are about to lose an outlet to the English speaking world, and I feel really bad for that too.
The "algorithm" is also just so much better than Reels and others. I spent an afternoon of PTO training my algorithm a couple years ago and it's been great ever since. My partner and I share TikToks with each other all the time and. we shape each other's algorithm and interests. Reels fixates too much on your follows and Youtube Shorts is honestly a garbage experience. Both platforms really reward creators building "brands" around their content rather than just being authentic or silly. I treat Reels as the place for polished creators or local businesses who are trying to sell me something and TikTok as the place for content. I find that I get a lot less ragebait surfaced to me than I do on other platforms, though I admit my partner gets more than I do. We both skip those videos quickly and that has helped keep this stuff off our FYP.
An important thing to remember is TikTok was one of the first platforms that was opt-in for short-form content. Both Reels and Shorts was foisted upon users who had different expectations of the network and as such had to deal with the impedance mismatch of the existing network and users who didn't want short-form content. TikTok's entire value proposition is short-form content.
I second this. I spend a few minutes each evening watching random people out and about in Japan, Korea, China as it is fascinating to learn about foreign cultures in such a direct way. Just yesterday I learned about the palm scanners some stores in China have as a payment system.
I don't create for TikTok, I have never had a TikTok account, and I don't use TikTok, outside of being exposed to videos on other sites, or occasionally clicking a link.
I had been exposed to DouYin before, but my first experience of TikTok in real life was someone at a party, holding their phone, exclaiming something along the lines of "I can't look away, it's so addictive." It was uncomfortable, and I'm aware of how fake this sounds, but it happened.
But I think this is very bad.
With Section 230 in crosshairs, EARN IT being reintroduced every year or two, and access to books and sites being fragmented across the US, things are very already bad, and have the potential to get much worse. TikTok being banned is censorship, and presents a significant delta towards more censorship.
Congress didn't just "ban TikTok", Congress banned its first social media. This is case law, this is precedent, this is a path for banning other social media apps.
I think this is bad because I think this is the start of something new and something bad for the internet.
> TikTok being banned is censorship, and presents a significant delta towards more censorship
I don't see it that way. I'm not American and I've never used TikTok.
I don't see any censorship here.
This is more of an ongoing power struggle between the US and China, tit for tat after they banned American apps.
Censorship would mean that they're banning actual content. That's not what's happening here. Any of the short form videos from TikTok can be hosted on several other video platforms, if the creators care to upload it.
Banning a platform is not censorship. It's like banning a book publishing house but allowing any other publisher to continue publishing their books.
It does appear that there is actual censorship, in the form of book banning, happening in several US states recently. But this ain't that.
I’m shutting down the film festival and reserve the right to shut down all future film festivals with this precedent. I’m not censoring you, of course. You’re free to assemble in the local Hollywood studio.
Sounds a lot like censorship lite before the full fledged version ships.
> Any of the short form videos from TikTok can be hosted on several other video platforms, if the creators care to upload it.
Sure, you can repost TikTok content anywhere, but what people really notice when they recognize that tiktok's algorithm is unique—without realizing it—is that it's apolitical by default, and not-western when politics come into play. It actually shows you what you're interested in, instead of force-feeding western progressive/consumerist messaging and banning half its users for wrongthink.
So yeah, post the same content on Reels/Shorts if you want, but if it doesn't align with the western narrative, good luck with the shadowbans and downranking.
What's being targeted is TikTok's algorithm. User's videos are still legal US speech and can be posted and shared freely.
The specific rationale upheld by SCOTUS and unenumerated in the law itself (it's only like two sentences, I would recommend just reading it) was based on national security concerns and level of scrutiny.
TikTok failed the criteria. US companies do not, and laws to ban them would have to use entirely separate methods which would face a far tougher SCOTUS test. (It's not like the Justices are falling over themselves to always agree on things, especially the current court.)
Banning US companies is just politically infeasible. But the Chinese issue is pretty bipartisan (right now).
> User's videos are still legal US speech and can be posted and shared freely.
Sure, but removing the platform still removes speech. This relies on all of the people saving and re-uploading their videos.
Imagine a scenario where you needed government and regulatory approval to create a new website. HackerNews, personal websites, etc. were all banned. Would it be okay, since you could repost all your comments and threads onto Facebook?
> Banning US companies is just politically infeasible. But the Chinese issue is pretty bipartisan (right now).
FOSTA and SESTA impacted US companies. It leakd to increased censorship on practically every social media platform.
The EARN IT Act is still a threat (unless Salt Typhoon, ironically, provided the proof necessary to show how vital e2ee is). It has also enjoyed bipartisan support, and backdooring encryption is harmful and does constitute censorship.
While I agree the legal specifics of the TikTok ban are meant to target TikTok, the political apparatus has been proven. Congress banning apps has been normalized.
No matter how you cut it, this is another big loss for the free and open internet, at a time when wins are far and few between.
I'm pretty upset about it honestly. TikTok's algorithm has always done a fantastic job of providing interesting clips in a way that Facebook and Instagram has never been able to provide. I will say that upon a new account, it's mostly garbage, but it quickly learned what I was interested in and what I would tend to engage with. It also does this while showing me considerably fewer ads than the meta platforms.
Seconded. My experiences were similar.
That said, the algorithm got noticeably worse after 2021. Maybe because of the TikTok shop. I’ve categorized around 3,000 clips into different collections (with 600+ being in “educational”) but that fell off over the last few years. I would be a lot more upset about the ban if they had maintained quality, but now I’m like well, whatever.
> It was weaponized once with how they created armies of teenagers who called their local representatives and made threats.
This is an extremely dramatic way of saying "they had a banner in the app which informed users of a policy that affected them and directed them to contact their representatives", something which plenty of other social media platforms, such as Reddit have done without controversy.
> Why is the back end learning of so many human habits not creepy to you?
In the context of banning TikTok for this particular reason, then X.com, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube are all equally guilty in how they both boost and suppress different types of content based on interference from local government.
All the other content recommendation systems force you into a ghetto and are highly auto-regressive. They only show you content like they already showed you, so you will never be exposed to new things. This hampers discovery, and you end up with only a few winner-take-all accounts with mass appeal and mass distribution (e.g., "Mr. Beast") who are broadly not interesting or specialized.
TikTok is more stochastic and is more likely to give wider circulation to niche and esoteric subjects. Booktok could never happen on YouTube shorts or Instagram.
Using those other platforms is like shouting into the wind. You could have videos up for years and not get 50 views. With TikTok, a random video could be seen by 250k people.
A corollary to other systems being so auto-regressive is that they are much more dangerous for vulnerable people. If Instagram decides to start showing you extremist or otherwise political content, that is all you will see. This is the "rabbit hole" effect that people have commented upon. This doesn't happen to the same degree with TikTok; while this content can be recommended, it's not all that will be recommended.
Think you nailed TikTok's magic sauce, that algorithm finely balances the ghettoization of most traditional social networks and the "you might like this" randomness that feels like it's two-steps of interest away from your usual feed. Any regular user will see that pattern of 10-15 things that fit a pattern, and then a couple of very clear pieces of tracer content that expands and reinforces your own FYP.
It shows an understanding and adoption of risk that most western social networks don't have, while they're too invested in supporting and reinforcing the status quo, TikTok has always felt a little more willing to find the edges of/expand your interests.
TikTok provides the "human" element that IG and YouTube do not.
On IG and YouTube the algos are shoving "creators" in my face, which is fine sometimes. But TikTok surfaces randos whose only followers are their own family members, and they happen to be talking about something unique or funny in one video out of dozens that got only 2 views.
On IG and YouTube, the algos give me brightly lit faces, brightly lit homes, professional editing. On TikTok, I get people speaking quietly from their bed, or their recliner in what is obviously a trailer, or in the passenger seat of their car at Safeway, double-chinned and sleepy-eyed, saying something hilarious or just talking about their day or maybe sharing something they just realized.
On IG and YT, I get a video of someone falling on their face plastered with poorly worded captions and one or more logos for some social media company. On TikTok, I see the original video of that person falling on their face from the original account, and if you go to their account it's obviously just a real person who made a funny video by accident one time.
All the things that IG and YT force on me certainly exist on TikTok too, and you can surround yourself with that content if you like. But if you don't want that kind of content, TikTok lets you choose.
IG and YT don't give you that choice.
Not a content creator, but a TikTok user for several years. I really feel like the app changed my life. It opened my world to new cultures and ideas, brought me out of my comfort zone, introduced me to several real life friends. I made big changes in my life as a direct result of TikTok and have improved my life and health significantly as a result. I’ll be really sad to see it go.
Just out of curiosity, how did the app improve your life?
In no particular order: - I learned a new language and moved to a new country, as a direct result of what I saw and learned from TikTok. - I learned about countless new cultures from all over the world. - I learned new perspectives about domestic and international politics. - I met a variety of real, online friends and 3 real life friends who I actually spend time with in person. - I was able to learn how to express my emotions in better and more constructive ways. - I learned a ton of random things about every subject matter I can think of—from AI and programming, to psychology, to cooking, to mechanical and electrical engineering, history, medicine, science, etc. As a generalist it’s very important to me, as I’m able to connect information well across diverse subject areas. - I discovered the majority of the music I listen to these days. - I started traveling the world, learning how to do it safely and finding new destinations I didn’t previously know anything about.
The list really goes on and on, but these are some of the quick highlights that come to mind. Thanks for asking!
Thank you for sharing! It sounds like you’ve found a meaningful corner of TikTok! And your response helped me to realize those positive aspects
I've found something like a very efficient sorting into communities of shared interest, and something egalitarian in being able to see people with 0 views and get reactions from them.
It's by contrast to say, Youtube and X, where The Algorithm (tm) sustains a central Nile river of dominant creators and you're either in it or you're not.
That said, I think the political questions are rightly the dominant ones in this convo and those color my lived experience of it.
You’re right about youtube shoving the main river on you but recently discovered a lot of niche youtubers with very few views in my areas of interest. I just wish I had more control in what the feed returns, for example if im irked by a certain content I should be able to escape it with a click. But thats not how youtube or facebook/instagram work. Content is targeted at you behind the scenes based on an accidental encounter you had in the past with some content and there’s no way to disable that. Don’t recommend this channel/page doesn’t work because there’s an army of channels/pages that push the same content on you. This is very powerful for paid propaganda
My wife, well into her 30s, initially got an inkling that she might be on the Autism spectrum after being exposed to TiKTok videos of high masking, high functioning women who talked about their Autism.
After many years and dozens of tests and questionnaires and appointments with speech pathologists, occupational therapists and psychiatrists, she was formally diagnosed last year with Level 2 Autism (there are 3 levels here in Australia).
After years of being misdiagnosed with various forms of anxiety or depression (and none of those drugs or treatments being helpful for her), this has been life changing. So much of her early childhood and past life now suddenly makes sense.
We used to be very bad at diagnosing autism in girls
technology changed our life. especially internet and smart phone impact a lot on social engagement between peoples. if people spend much time on internet or smart phones daily, if it is not tiktok, it will be something else. should we go back to non smart phone time? or even roll back to no internet time? maybe no electricity time.
technology is just like a tool. how people use it matters not the technology itself can be evil. tiktok's algorithm helps speed up information delivery to the people who likes it. eventually it helps to form a community of people online who like similar thing or have similar options. people needs to be aware of the content on any platform has "survivorship bias". seeing couple of examples is not representing the whole.
Not a content creator and use it regularly. My algorithm is mostly silly stuff, music, etc. I'm not convinced there's a discernible risk to national security, and as someone with a lot of libertarian views, I think the ban is an overstep by the US government.
The "sticky"-ness is real, but many will flock to the TikTok copies in other platforms like Instagram, Facebook, X, anyway.
Regardless, I enjoy the platform. It's fun to reference the viral sounds/trends on the platform with other friends that use it.
I don't have an account, but how about this: I don't want the government to ban websites or apps in general, and certainly not for who owns them.
The internet was supposed to be a global thing, where it didn't matter who you were and everyone could connect to everyone. That is the internet I grew up with.
As a millennial, I use TikTok as a “normie” version of Reddit. The algorithm has a similar vibe. It puts content in front of me that I’m likely to be interested in, exposing me to quite a diverse set of content. The instagram/youtube algorithms don’t come anywhere close in comparison.
It’s a guilty pleasure in the dopamine sense, but also surfaces a lot of informative content if you bias towards that! I suppose it depends how you use it.
> Anyone here who's not a TikTok content creator reasonably upset about losing access to the platform? Can you tell me why it will sting for you?
I like living in a country where the government does not get to decide what I'm allowed to read/watch/see. The TikTok ban chips away at that in a meaningful way.
I value this above most other concerns, including vague worries about "Chinese spying".
I'm pretty upset about it and I am not a creator.
I'm not just upset because I have a general dislike of being told I'm an idiotic, addicted, communist stooge who is easily brainwashed. I am used to folks telling me that- it started when I was writing anti-war editorials in the early oughts, so there is nothing new in that.
What I regret is that I have been following a number of quite-good political discussions on the platform, with a nicely diverse group of interlocutors.
While the discussion generally leans far left, there are many flavors of that left:
not a lot of tankies, mostly just people between "dirt bag left" and "black panther party", lots of women, BIPOC, trans folks, academics, working people, indigenous folks, queer folks of all stripes, activists, and folks who just don't like authority.
Those conversations had been very hard to come by on Yt, Ig, or Fb.
I think it's the response format for videos. I don't think it's worth bothering to speculate about other reasons, though I did note that several legitimate left news sources were shuttered in 2020 when Meta and Tw started their political purge.
Anyhow, I know that folks in the US have very little regard for political autonomy, so I am not surprised that this happens, and compared to the carceral state and the happy ecocide of the planet this is a very little thing. But I will still miss it.
My fyp was very similar. I'm going to miss having so many like minded folks to hear from and interact with. I don't think any other app has given me this same sense of community and to some degree empowerment. I am very left leaning in my politics, I also happen to be a POC who is surrounded by apolitical friends. TikTok showed me that there are other folks just like me - that is a powerful and reassuring feeling.
Same. I mean I didn't find quite the same type of community, but I did get exposed to content that was different than other platforms. Just weirder, more fun, more interesting. Definitely going to miss it if it goes away.
It's unfortunate that more people can't see that it: 1. actually has some social value 2. banning it is a restriction on our freedom
Obviously, it's 3. mostly junk and brain rot 4. a potential tool for Chinese influence and manipulation
But I think we need to accept that 1 & 2 override 3 & 4. Honestly for 4, it's more important to have a widely used source that isn't necessarily subject to the same restrictions (legal or cultural) as US-based apps.
I'll try to directly relate this to something you are familiar with.
> Can you tell me why it will sting for you?
Imagine Hacker News without the comments.
> The only thing I get sent from TikTok are dances and silly memes
That's like saying Hacker News is just old links about useless stuff from other parts of the internet.
> I was really surprised that my daughters (avid teenage TikTok users) are much more relieved than mad.
A sense of relief may be a coping mechanism. I've heard laid-off colleagues inform me they felt relief in the immediate aftermath; granted, the lay-offs were pre-announced before they communicated who would be "impacted", and it was at a high-pressure environment; but the human mind sometimes reacts in unexpected ways to loss outside of one's control. Rationalization is a mechanism for ego defense.
It doesn't occur to you that they may be relieved because they know they're addicted and are glad that someone is going to step in and give them the help they can't give themselves?
> It doesn't occur to you...
It did occur to me, which is why I couched my statement with "may". Though your framing is still compatible with "rationalization"
I found the tone of your comment needlessly - and weirdly combative.
TikTok has replaced Reddit for me (I can expand more on why I stopped using Reddit, but it's not related to TikTok) in terms of "checking what's up on the internet" or as Reddit would put it "Checking the homepage of the internet".
I trust TikTok's "algorithm" to give me quick and entertaining short-bits about what's going on, what's interesting, etc. It learns what I'm into effortlessly, and I appreciate how every now and then it would throw in a completely new (to me) genera or type of content to check out. Whenever I open it, there is a feed that's been curated to me about things I'm interested in checking out, few new things that are hit or miss (and I like that), and very few infuriating/stupid (to me) things.
Its recommendation engine is the best I have used. It's baffling how shitty YouTube's algorithm is. I discover YouTube channels I'm into form TikTok. Sometimes I'd discover new (or old) interesting videos from YouTube channels I already follow from TikTok first. For example, I follow Veritasium and 3Blue1Brown on YouTube but I certainly haven't watched their full back catalog. YouTube NEVER recommends to me anything from their back catalog. When I'm in the mood, I have to go to their channel, scroll for a while, then try to find a video I'd be interested in from the thumbnail/title. And once I do, YouTube will re-recommend to me all the videos I have already watched from them (which are already their best performing videos). Rarely would it recommend something new from them.
On TikTok, it frequently would pull clips from old Veritasium or 3Blue1Brown videos for me which I'd get hooked after watching 10 seconds, then hob on YouTube to watch the full video. It's insane how bad YouTube recommendation algorithm is. Literally the entire "recommended" section of youtube is stuff I have watched before, or stuff with exactly the same content as things I have watched before.
Here is how I find their recommendation algorithm to work:
YouTube: Oh you watched (and liked) a brisket smoking video? Here is that video again, and 10 other "brisket smoking videos". These are just gonna be stuck on your home page for the next couple of weeks now. You need to click on them one by one and mark "not interested" in which case you're clearly not interested in BBQ or cooking. Here are the last 10 videos you watched, and some MrBeast videos and some random YouTube drama videos.
TikTok: Oh you watched (and liked) a brisket smoking video? How about another BBQ video, a video about smokers and their models, some videos about cookouts and BBQ side dishes, a video about a DIY smoker, another about a DIY backyard project for hosting BBQ cookouts, a video about how smoke flavors food, a video about the history of BBQ in the south, a video about a BBQ joint in your city (or where ever my VPN is connected from), etc. And if you're not interested in any of those particular types, it learns from how long you spend watching the video and would branch more or less in that direction in the future.
Another example is search. Search for "sci fi books recommendations":
YouTube: Here are 3 videos about Sci-Fi books. Here are 4 brisket smoking videos. Here are some lost hikers videos (because you watched a video about a lost hiker 3 weeks ago). Here are 3 videos about a breaking story in the news. Here are 2 videos about sci-fi books, and another 8 about brisket.
TikTok: Here is a feed of videos about Sci-Fi books. And I'll make sure to throw in sci-fi book videos into your curated feed every now and then to see if you're interested.
I think the easiest answer to follow for "why is this not prevented by free speech protection" is "the fact that petitioners “cannot avoid or mitigate” the effects of the Act by altering their speech." (page 10 of this ruling, but is a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_Broadcasting_System,_In...)
It's amazing to me how many people are derailed by the free speech argument.
This is about who controls the network, not the content on the network.
There is a law that only U.S. citizens can own TV stations. That's why Murdoch became a US citizen (allowing him to buy Fox). This is in a similar vein.
If you followed the politics of the TikTok ban, it was absolutely about the content of the network.
US Congresspeople and Senators were angry that TikTok would not censor or de-emphasize pro-Palestinian / anti-Israeli content, whereas Facebook much more actively de-boosted that kind of content. All previous attempts to ban TikTok failed to gain traction, until the Gaza war began, and that issue convinced many politicians in the US to back a ban.
I know this was a common talking point but I don't really agree it is a valid reason. It's probably just demographic and algorithmic differences that pro-Palestine content is more common on TikTok.
What would be interesting though - on all platforms, what's the organic percentage of the different view points, and whats the percentage that ends up being shown to people. I think that's what people are worried about being quietly manipulated. So even a small amount of people with some extreme view point would get promoted because China wants it, but since it's real content, it's not really obvious that it's being pushed.
I'm totally pro-TikTok btw I just don't really buy the idea that it was about this specific content.
right you really have to be not paying attention or be living in an alternative facts world. For instance look on X, there are literally thousands of paid for foreign propaganda bots trying to inject hatred and division in the USA and they have free reign and the government is not trying to stop them after Musk told them "no". Soon it starts happening to facebook, except there is no "paid" bluecheck account, the result will be the same. TikTok is a clear and present attempt by a centralized foreign advesary to do the same thing, but they will be treated differently because it's the enemy from without and not owned by an American company.
> There is a law that only U.S. citizens can own TV stations.
The communications act did not ban already-existing networks, and it did not ban specific providers. The tiktok ban is targeted specifically against one social media that the government does not like[1], with a thin veneer of "security concern" that people might specifically choose to share their contact list and that one of those contacts may be in a sensitive position.
[1] I don't even really think it's about the government not liking it! They thought they could get cheap support by drumming up anti-chinese sentiment and they ran with it. It's the most pathetic kind of politicking.
> tiktok ban is targeted specifically against one social media that the government does not like
no, it's about the ownership and control of the social media network by a foreign country (that is adversarial to the US)
the other major social networks are all US companies
Simple answer. A chinese owned company has no such rights or protections. Free speech does not apply. The law also does not censor content (so no free speech violation anyway). The law simply bans the distribution of the app on marketplaces stores for reasons stated (national security). Big difference.
> Simple answer. A chinese owned company has no such rights or protections. Free speech does not apply.
The Constitution does not place limits on which people are protected by it (you don't have to be a citizen for it to apply as the founders were looking to limit the powers of their government not their citizens). And with the expansion of those protections to corporations through Citizens United, I'd be surprised if a court found that `company + foreign != person + foreign` when they've decided `company == person`. (Well not surprised by this Court.)
> The law also does not censor content (so no free speech violation anyway). The law simply bans the distribution of the app on marketplaces stores for reasons stated (national security). Big difference.
The rest of your comment still stands right in my eyes. National Security has often been used as a means to bypass many things enshrined by the Constitution.
The court has never determined that corporations are people, that’s a completely unfounded meme.
What they did find was that (real, human) people have certain rights that they are able to exercise by organizing into corporations.
Ugh. CU doesn’t state that corporations are people. They can’t vote or own guns or get married or divorced. They can’t be legal guardians to children or pay income tax. They aren’t entitled to Social Security benefits and their coverage for health insurance may be denied for preexisting conditions. What CU said is that collectively people can use company resources to exercise their right to free speech and established the concept of super PACs.
This isn’t to say that it was the right decision (certainly seems to have done some very bad things). But “corporations are people” is a lay person talking point, not an actual legal doctrine. Therefore you can’t just apply it to other cases because there is nothing to apply.
You are correct that free speech isn’t limited by your citizenship status.
The EFF disagrees.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/01/eff-statement-us-supre...
> The law simply bans the distribution of the app on marketplaces stores for reasons stated (national security).
This is red alert talk. We need to make damned sure we know exactly what we're asking for here and that we're not giving up more than we mean to.
This is affecting the free speech rights of US citizens directly. You might wish it was as simple as you try to portray it, but it clearly isn’t
This is not affecting US citizens' legal free speech rights. You have the right to say what you want; you don't have the right to say it on a specific platform. You had free speech without TikTok before it existed, and you'll have the same amount of free speech if it does not exist again.
Cool, so is all US companies in all other countries around the world then, no protections. All countries in the world, USA just showed it is perfectly fine to steal a foreign companies' asset. Let's do that to all USA companies, Apple, Amazon, Nvidia, Tesla, Boeing, Qualcomn, Intel, all of them. U know how rich you will be if you just got a piece of them? U know you could end homelessness, poverty, balance trade, stabilize your currency, elevate tax revenues, get free education and health care for your citizens, provide great jobs if you just got a piece of USA companies? Now you can! All of them can be Indian, Germany, France, UK, Poland, Brazilian, Mexican, Canadian, Kenyan, Egyptian companies. Everyone gets a piece, everyone gets them equally, everyone will benefit and be happy!
I get this argument, and obviously it's not stopping people from uploading the same content other places. But isn't there (or shouldn't there be) something about not banning what people can consume? Like could the US ban aljazeera? Or banning foreign books?! And still TikTok is different, because it's about the potential for quietly manipulating or curating what is seen, even if that content is produced domestically... And even if people can use other apps, there's still a community and subcultures that are being dismantled.
This is a limitation on foreign control of TikTok, not a limitation on speech. TikTok can stay in the us market if it eliminates the foreign control
There is limitation of foreign control of all foreign companies in all countries. USA companies can stay in the world markets if it sells itself to owners of that country. All USA companies, Apple, Amazon, Nvidia, Tesla, Boeing, Qualcomn, Intel, all of them, can be Indian, Germany, France, UK, Poland, Brazilian, Mexican, Canadian, Kenyan, Egyptian companies.
Congress is explicitly empowered in the Constitution to regulate foreign trade. Free speech is not relevant.
Free speech is relevant if issues of free speech are involved, which they are here.
There are no issues of speech. Nobody’s speech is restricted in any way. China simply isn’t allowed to sell a social media app in the US. This is just an import control like if we decided not to import lemons from Brazil or anything else.
What specific speech do you think is no longer allowed?
I really like reading these because they come with annotations: https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt1-9-1/ALD...
Also, more directly for those in the back, the actual first amendment:
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The first amendment doesn't guarantee the speaker a venue for their speech. You're still free to say whatever you want to say, so long as it doesn't cross any other laws, in or on whatever other private venues or town squares you so choose.
To turn your question around, rather than spending time defending TikTok I wish people would spend time thinking about the need for actual privacy laws. The kind of laws that outline data governance and the extents to which an individual can expect their individual privacy to be respected. Maybe then we can play less whack a mole with invasive and potentially harmful social software.
Sweet summer child, do you think TikTok would've been banned if it didn't come into focus as a hotbed for pro-Palestinian content?
"The issue in the United States for support of Israel is not left and right. It is young and old. And the numbers of young people who think that Hamas' massacre was justified is shockingly and terrifyingly odd. And so we really have a TikTok problem."
"[TikTok] is like Al Jazeera on steroids."
- Jonathan Gleenblat, ADL.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelCrimes/comments/1i3vwll/we_ha...
Something very appalling has just taken place in the USA. Old people have muzzled the free speech of young people. Americans spend more hours on TikTok than on television (but it mostly skews to young people), and now it's been taken away.
If TikTok were sold to an American company, as the new law demands, why would that change anything about the amount of pro-Palestinian content? Just because the ADL said they don't like TikTok does not mean that's the motivation for the bill. You're still allowed to criticize Israel as much as you were a decade ago (which is to say, less than you're allowed to criticize the US, for some reason ;) but still).
Because a sale is and has always been impossible since it would be an unacceptable embarrassment for China in the current climate. The divestiture is just a way to make the ban pass muster.
Which big US social media company operates without some form of involvement with the ADL?
This isn't a conspiracy, the ADL openly admits and is proud of their involvement in censorship.
Here they are bragging about their role in youtube censorship:
https://www.adl.org/resources/press-release/adl-applauds-goo...
Google search results censorship:
https://www.adl.org/resources/news/can-google-search-be-used...
X may be the one exception, though I note that the "advertiser boycott" was ended when Musk made trips to Israel, was photographed next Netanyahu's atrocity propaganda prop pieces, next to Ben Shapiro, etc.
TikTok was specifically banned because of one main reason. When it was being discussed in congress, they told their users to complain to their congresspeople, and posted their congresspersons number. Then when a bunch of unhinged teens called threatening to kill themselves, congress members rightfully went "What the fuck" and the bill gained enormous support
Tik tok was banned because it tried to use children to start a political movement. Unfortunately for them children can not vote so the movement did nothing other than scare adults.
Eh, I don't really agree with roncesvalles, but I think this is an inherently highly political topic. Should HN just be deleting the entire thread?
think about it this way: could any law ever stop any publisher from doing anything and still respect the 1st amendemnt?
That's a great point. Hadn't thought about that angle
Anyone here who's not a TikTok content creator reasonably upset about losing access to the platform? Can you tell me why it will sting for you? I was really surprised that my daughters (avid teenage TikTok users) are much more relieved than mad. Both said they wasted too much time on TikTok and were hoping life will now feel better. Seems the very thing that made the platform sticky puts it in a guilty pleasure category perhaps.
(I'm asking about the lived experience outside of the political questions around who should decide what we see / access online.)
EDIT: Thank you for the replies! Interesting. I'm still wondering if most people use TikTok just for passive entertainment? I don't love Youtube, but it's been a huge learning and music discovery resource for me.
The only thing I get sent from TikTok are dances and silly memes but I don't have an account.