Comment by srndsnd 10 months ago
To me, what's missing from that set of recommendations is some method to increase the liability of companies who mishandle user data.
It is insane to me that I can be notified via physical mail of months old data breaches, some of which contained my Social Security number, and that my only recourse is to set credit freezes from multiple credit bureaus.
>Why is it everywhere I go management is always doing shady stuff.
Well here's a cynical take on this - management is playing the business game at a higher level than you. "Shady stuff" is the natural outcome of profit motivation. Our society is fundamentally corrupt. It is designed to use the power of coercive force to protect the rights and possessions of the rich against the threat of violence by the poor. The only way to engage with it AND keep your hands clean is to be in a position that lets you blind yourself to the problem. At the end of the day, we are all still complicit in enabling slave labor and are beneficiaries of policies that harm the poor and our environment in order to enrich our lives.
>unless I report it to PCI, which I would get no reward for.
You may be looking at that backwards. Unless you report it to PCI, you are still complicit in the mishandling of the breach, even though you resigned. You might have been better off reporting it over the owner's objections, then claiming whistleblower protections if they tried to terminate you.
This is not legal advice, I am not a lawyer, I am not your lawyer, etc.
I did verify with an attorney that since I wasn't involved and made sure the owner knew what was what, that I had no legal obligations to disclose.
The problem isn't society or profit motivation. It's people. Humanity itself is corrupt. There aren't "good people" and "bad people". There's only "bad people." We're all bad people, just some of us are more comfortable with our corruption being visible to others to a higher degree.
> We're all bad people, just some of us are more comfortable with our corruption being visible to others to a higher degree.
If the GP's story is true (and I have no reason to suspect otherwise), then there are clearly differences in the degree of "badness" between people. GP chose to resign from his job, while his manager chose to be negligent and dishonest.
So, even if we're all bad people, there are less bad and more bad people, so we might as well call the less bad end of the spectrum "good". Thus, there are good and bad people.
No. There are no good or bad people. But people do good or bad things, all the time.
This. Also, the world isn't black and white. Good and Evil are overly simplistic categories that aren't constructive. Just because one person does something wrong, it doesn't have to define them or negate the good they do in other areas.
What is this even supposed to mean? Profit motivation is a concept invented by humans for humans to apply. If it leads to unexpected or undesirable outcomes then it's a bad idea. A system that requires all participants be paragons of some definition of virtue to produce good results is fundamentally unsuited for human beings.
The DOJ has just launched a corporate whistleblower program, you should look into it maybe it covers your case:
https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-division-corporate...
>As described in more detail in the program guidance, the information must relate to one of the following areas: (1) certain crimes involving financial institutions, from traditional banks to cryptocurrency businesses; (2) foreign corruption involving misconduct by companies; (3) domestic corruption involving misconduct by companies; or (4) health care fraud schemes involving private insurance plans.
>If the information a whistleblower submits results in a successful prosecution that includes criminal or civil forfeiture, the whistleblower may be eligible to receive an award of a percentage of the forfeited assets, depending on considerations set out in the program guidance. If you have information to report, please fill out the intake form below and submit your information via CorporateWhistleblower@usdoj.gov. Submissions are confidential to the fullest extent of the law.
Why would you resign? You could have reported it yourself and then you would have whistleblower protections - if the company retaliated against you (e.g. fired you), you then would have had a strong lawsuit.
Because I don't want to be associated with companies that break the law and violate regulations knowingly. I've long had a reputation of integrity, and it's one of the few things I have left having almost nothing else.
So you would rather be known as someone who had an opportunity to report a violation, and chose not to? From my perspective it seem like you decided against acting with integrity in this situation - the moral thing would have been to report the violation, but you chose to look the other way and resign.
Yes. The owner is old, and going blind, but refuses to sell or hand over day to day ops to someone else, and thus must ask for help on almost everything. I even pulled on my network to find a big processor with a good reputation to buy the company, but after constant delays and excuses for not engaging with them, I realized to the owner the business is both their "baby" and their social life, neither of which they want to lose.
YMMV, but it took me 15 minutes start to finish to freeze my credit with the 3 bureaus using the following instructions.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/how-to-freeze-cre...
YMMV indeed.
Since moving overseas 15 years ago, I tried numerous times and it simply is not possible. All the forms require a U.S. mailing address to register. Same for online access to your Social Security account.
There are an estimated 10 million Americans living overseas. Taken together, we are the equivalent of the 11th largest state. All of us completely blind to what is happening with our credit record and Social Security account.
At this point I think the only way this gets fixed is massive fraud/exploitation by organized crime, so these organizations finally address the problem.
> There are an estimated 10 million Americans living overseas
Curious how you found this number, have a source?
This made me pretty curious, but I couldn't find any official numbers. The closest 'official' numbers that I could find are from the Federal Voting Assistance Program [0] and that lists 4.4 million people, but only 2.8 million of those being adults.
[0] https://www.fvap.gov/info/interactive-data-center/overseas
Strange that someone down-voted you, as this is a fair question.
> Curious how you found this number, have a source?
I don't have the source handy but have seen the estimated 10 million figure cited repeatedly. But maybe it is about a million too high, as the US Department of State estimates nine million in this 2020 publication: https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/travel/CA-By-the-Number...
This Wikipedia page has a lot more info for those interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_from_the_United_Sta...
Using FVAP stats to me seems problematic, because just like the general population, many US citizens do not bother registering to vote (though they do acknowledge this on the page you linked to and try to control for it).
State likely have a more accurate estimate from knowing how many passport renewals originate from overseas addresses. I am sure some Americans renew or replace their passports while merely travelling overseas, but I cannot imagine this is a routine practice.
Unfortunately, that isn’t enough to mitigate identity theft. Someone leveraging the recent National Public Data breach opened a checking and savings account using my identity (no credit checks are performed in doing so) then committed wire fraud using accounts.
Banks use various other services such as Early Warning. Still, it's absurd the lengths we need to go to for any level of assurance against fraud.
> To me, what's missing from that set of recommendations is some method to increase the liability of companies who mishandle user data.
As nice as this is on paper, it will never happen, lobbyist exists. Not to be tinfoil hat but why would any lawmaker slap the hand that feeds them.
Until there is an independent governing body which is permitted to regulate over the tech industry as a whole it wont happen. Consider the FDA, they decide which drugs and ingredients are allowed and that's all fine. There could be a regulating body which could determine the risk to people's mental health for example from 'features' of tech companies etc. But getting that body created will require a tragedy. Like why the FDA was created in the first place. [1]
That's just my 2cents.
1 : https://www.fda.gov/about-fda/fda-history/milestones-us-food....
>There could be a regulating body which could determine the risk to people's mental health for example from 'features' of tech companies etc.
I think ideas like this is why it's not going to happen.
Our understanding of mental health is garbage. Psychiatry used to be full of quackery and very well still might be. Treatment for something like depression boils down to "let's try drug in a random order until one works". It's a field where a coin-flip rivals the accuracy of studies. Therefore any regulating body on that will just be political. It will be all about the regulators "doing something" because somebody wrote enough articles (propaganda).
Problems like this are why people aren't interested in supporting such endeavors.
That is not the treatment for depression.
this argument reduces mental health to medication, which leaves aside everything from the history of mental health (asylums, witch burnings to today), leaps in medicine (from lobotomies, to SNRIs, bipolar meds and more), to simply better diagnoses.
There are certainly tons of people here who have benefited from mental health professionals - overextending the flaws in psych simply to dismiss the idea of a watchdog is several unsupported arguments too far.
I disagree, in brief because the practical side of psychiatry is medication-dominated, mostly because medical research is difficult and expensive.
There are some non-medication treatments for some psychiatric symptoms such as those caused by trauma (Prominently, EMDR) that some hail as actual cures, and even maybe depression (I am clearly not a doctor.) but in the case of depression I think you'll find its quite medication-heavy.
The reason for this is that psychiatrists are Medical Doctors and Psychiatry is a medical field which is of course bounded by the means of medical science. This is not to say there is some "magic" at work which science could never understand--not at all. It is merely the case that medical doctors are a research paper oriented bunch, and most of the medical research which makes it into practice is either relating to anatomy or pharmaceutical interventions.
Most of the treatments we have are pharmaceutical medications because most of our research dollars have gone into pharmaceutical research.
I decided to edit this comment to add: In my personal opinion, is probable that psychiatrists et all, writ large as it were, have already figured out how to cure depression. Only, we cannot really manage to employ it because it isn't a pill, therapy, device or surgery.
Psychiatry is useful in the way Statistics is useful for math models we don't fully understand. Statistics let's us get at answers with enough data even though we don't really understand the underlying model at play.
There a whole host of 'sciences' that are kind of 2nd tier like this, Psychiatry being one of them. Once we understand enough Neuroscience, it's likely to me Psychiatry will get consumed by Neuroscience which will splinter into more useful for day to day life categories as it grows (like a psychiatrist)
Super book on the subject and also talks about the rising bar for individual culpability as we understand more about the brain: https://www.amazon.com/Incognito-Secret-Lives-David-Eagleman...
Through civil disobedience is the only way stuff like this happens in America. You're right about the incentives to those in power, but how do you think we got emancipation2, women's suffrage, organized labor rights, prohibition and the end to prohibition?
The prohibitionisn't over. The war on drugs is still going strong, even with marijuana legalization in many states.
I’m completely sympathetic to making companies more liable for data security. However, until data breaches regularly lead to severe outcomes for subjects whose personal data was leaked, and those outcomes can be causally linked to the breaches in an indisputable manner, it seems unlikely for such legislation to be passed.
I forgot where I saw this, but the US govt recently announced that they see mass PII theft as a legitimate national security issue.
It’s not just that you or I will be inconvenienced with a bit more fraud or email spam, but rather that large nation state adversaries having huge volumes of data on the whole population can be a significant strategic advantage
And so far we typically see email+password+ssn be the worst data leaked; I expect attackers will put in more effort to get better data where possible. Images, messages, gps locations, etc
yes, privacy is not an individual problem; it's a civil defense problem, and not just when your opponent is a nation-state. we already saw this in 02015 during the daesh capture of mosul; here's the entry from my bookmarks file:
https://www.facebook.com/dwight.crow/media_set?set=a.1010475... “#Weaponry and morale determine outcomes. The 2nd largest city of Iraq (Mosul) fell when 1k ISIS fighters attacked “60k” Iraqi army. 40k soldiers were artifacts of embezzlement, and of 20k real only 1.5k fought - these mostly the AK47 armed local police. An AK47 loses to a 12.7mm machine gun and armored suicide vehicle bombs. Finally, the attack was personal - soldiers received calls mid-fight threatening relatives by name and address. One army captain did not leave quickly enough and had two teenage sons executed.” #violence #Iraq #daesh
of course the americans used this kind of personalized approach extensively in afghanistan, and the israelis are using it today in lebanon and gaza, and while it hasn't been as successful as they hoped in gaza, hamas doesn't exactly seem to be winning either. it's an asymmetric weapon which will cripple "developed" countries with their extensive databases of personal information
why would a politician go to war in the first place if the adversary has the photos and imeis of their spouse, siblings, and children, so they have a good chance of knowing where they are at all times, and the politician can't hope to protect them all from targeted assassination?
the policy changes needed to defend against this kind of attack are far too extreme to be politically viable. they need to be effective at preventing the mere existence of databases like facebook's social graph and 'the work number', even in the hands of the government. many more digital pearl harbors like the one we saw this week in lebanon will therefore ensue; countries with facebook, credit bureaus, and national identity cards are inevitably defenseless
imposing liability on companies whose data is stolen is a completely ineffective measure. first, there's no point in punishing people for things they can't prevent; databases are going to get stolen if they're in a computer. second, the damage done even at a personal level can vastly exceed the recoverable assets of the company that accumulated the database. third, if a company's database leaking got your government overthrown by the zetas or daesh, what court are you going to sue the company in? one operated by the new government?
Perhaps you're not aware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management...
Very aware of that. That to me seemed like a targeted attack by a tracked APT group. What I’m referring to above is that the more vanilla attacks (ex: popular online mattress store gets popped) actually have national security implications, despite seeming like just an inconvenience
The expansion of KYC and the hegemonic dominance of our global financial intelligence network is a recent infringement on our privacy that would not necessarily pass popular muster if it became well-known.
Most of our population is still living in a headspace where transactions are effectively private and untraceable, from the cash era, and has not considered all the ways that the end of this system makes them potential prey.
The fact is that the market is demanding a way to identify you both publicly and privately, and it will use whatever it needs to, including something fragile like a telephone number 2fa where you have no recourse when something goes wrong. It's already got a covert file on you a mile long, far more detailed than anything the intelligence agencies have bothered putting together. The political manifestation of anti-ID libertarians is wildly off base.
The concern about organizations and the governments feelings that it needs to track you is a very valid concern. Why does the government need to make sure your "hand job from a friend" venmo payment to your friend is "legally legit"? (You can get transactions flagged for this and the moderator will shame you)
Are you correct in what's going on? Yes. Are we placed in this with no option to resist? For the most part yes.
Because they're the mark of the beast or a step towards fascism or something.
I don't think it would take much to convert real IDs into a national ID, they are as close to as they can get without "freaking people out".
Emphasizing that the number can be changed would really help there.
People could even generate their own number (private key), which they never gave out, and appeared differently to each account manager verifying it, and still replace them.
When you choose your own number, it's only the Mark of the Beast if you are the Beast! * **
* 666, 13, 69 and 5318008 expressly prohibited.
** Our offices only provide temporary tattoos.
Shared secrets are criminally negligent security architecture in 2024. We can authenticate identity and authorize payment without giving the relying party a token to leak or abuse. The energy behind this problem is good, but "everyone try harder to protect the shared secrets entrusted to you" would be a tragic waste of it.
> [...] would be a tragic waste of it.
The first time would have been a tragedy, from then on it has been farce after farce.
Imagine a world where companies would have to prove the necessity of storing specific factoids. It would only take 1 security researcher to prove it being unnecessary, invalidating that class of "legitimate interests".
Today this value judgement happens in human brains, like the (correct) judgement in your comment. If we want to scale it objectively we would have to switch to formal verification. A whole industry of compliance checking could come to exist where a company wants to get its operations screened for compliance issues, so as not to suffer criminal negligence penalties.
The problem here is the payments industry (continuing to issue and accept "credit card numbers") and the voters (refusing to authorize a proper national ID). An individual entity that has to conduct business under these circumstances has no real alternative.
You are not being harmed by the storage or leakage of a few bytes, that's ridiculous. You are being harmed by the financial industry and government's insistence that knowledge of these bytes is sufficient to take your property or hold a debt against you.
Regulation is key, but I don’t see it as likely when our society is poisoned by culture war bs. Once we put that behind us (currently unlikely), we can pass sane laws reigning in huge corporations.
I get a feeling that liability is the missing piece in a lot of these issues. Section 230? Liability. Protection of personal data? Liability. Minors viewing porn? Liability.
Lack of liability is screwing up the incentive structure.
I think I agree, but people will have very different views on where liability should fall, and whether there is a malicious / negligent / no-fault model?
Section 230? Is it the platform or the originating user that's liable?
Protection of personal data? Is there a standard of care beyond which liability lapses (e.g. a nation state supply chain attack exfiltrates encrypted data and keys are broken due to novel quantum attack)?
Minors viewing porn? Is it the parents, the ISP, the distributor, or the creator that's liable?
I'm not here to argue specific answers, just saying that everyone will agree liability would fix this, and few will agree on who should be liable for what.
It's not a solvable problem. Like most tech problems it's political, not technical. There is no way to balance the competing demands of privacy, security, legality, and corporate overreach.
It might be solvable with some kind of ID escrow, where an independent international agency managed ID as a not-for-profit service. Users would have a unique biometrically-tagged ID, ID confirmation would be handled by the agency, ID and user behaviour tracking would be disallowed by default and only allowed under strictly monitored conditions, and law enforcement requests would go through strict vetting.
It's not hard to see why that will never happen in today's world.
>Protection of personal data? Is there a standard of care beyond which liability lapses (e.g. a nation state supply chain attack exfiltrates encrypted data and keys are broken due to novel quantum attack)?
There absolutely should be, especially for personal data collected and stored without the express written consent of those being surveilled. They should have to get people to sign off on the risks of having their personal data collected and stored, be legally prevented from collecting and storing the personal data of people who haven't consented and/or be liable for any leaking or unlawful sharing/selling of this data.
If you aren’t directly harmed yet what liability would they have? I imagine if your identity is stolen and it can be tied to a breach then they would already be liable.
The fact that my data can be stolen in the first place is already outrageous, because I neither consented to allowing these companies to have my data, nor benefit from them having my data.
It's like if you go to an AirBNB and the owner sneaks in at night and takes photos of you sleeping naked and keeps those photos in a folder on his bookshelf. Would you be okay with that? If you're not directly harmed, what liability would they have?
Personal data should be radioactive. Any company retaining it better have a damn good reason, and if not then their company should be burned to the ground and the owners clapped in irons. And before anyone asks, "personalized advertisements" is not a good reason.
> before anyone asks, "personalized advertisements" is not a good reason
The good reason is growth. Our AI sector is based on, in large part, the fruits of these data. Maybe it's all baloney, I don't know. But those are jobs, investment and taxes that e.g. Europe has skipped out on that America and China are capitalising on.
My point, by the way, isn't pro surveillance. I enjoy my privacy. But blanket labelling personal data as radioactive doesn't seem to have any benefit to it outside emotional comfort. Instead, we need to do a better job of specifying which data are harmful to accumulate and why. SSNs are obviously not an issue. Data that can be used to target e.g. election misinformation are.
> it's all vastly valuable and that's why it is right that it is taken without consent or compensation?
No, I'm saying it's a common with a benefit to utilisation. A lot of discussions around data involve zealouts on both sides. (One claiming it's the god-given right to harvest everyone's personal information. The other acting like it's the crime of the century for their email address to be leaked.)
I mean it's pretty clear that you are directly harmed if someone takes naked photos of you without your knowledge or consent and then keeps them. It's not a good analogy so if we want to convince people like the GP of the points you're making, you need to make a good case because that is not how the law is currently structured. "I don't like ads" is not a good reason, and comments like this that are seething with rage and hyperbole don't convince anyone of anything.
> it's pretty clear that you are directly harmed if someone takes naked photos of you without your knowledge or consent and then keeps them
Sure. In those cases, there are damages and that creates liability. I'm not sure what damages I've ever faced from any leak of e.g. my SSN.
>I neither consented to allowing these companies to have my data, nor benefit from them having my data.
I think both of those are debatable.
I don't think thats a proper parallel.
I think a better example would be You (AirBnB Host) rent a house to Person and Person loses the house key. Later on (perhaps many years later), You are robbed. Does Person have liability for the robbery?
Of course it also gets really muddy because you'll have renting the house out for those years and during that time many people will have lost keys. So does liability get divided? Is it the most recent lost key?
Personally, I think it should just be some statutory damages of probably a very small amount per piece of data.
The particular problem comes in because the amount of data lost tends to be massive when these breaches occur.
It's kind of like the idea of robbing a minute from someone's life. It's not every much to an individual, but across large populations it's a massive theft.
Sure and if you pay a statutory fine times 10 million then it becomes a big deal and therefore companies would be incentivized to protect it better the larger they get.
Right now they probably get some near free rate to offer you credit monitoring and dgaf.
> I think a better example would be You (AirBnB Host) rent a house to Person and Person loses the house key.
This is not a direct analogue, a closer analogy would be when the guest creates a copy of the key (why?) without my direct consent (signing a 2138 page "user agreement" doesn't count) and at some later point when I am no longer renting to them, loses the key.
This version loses multiple parts of things that are important
1. I have no control over what was stored 2. I have no control over where the storage is
The liability in this case is the homeowner/host, as you should have and had full ability to change out the locks.
To make it more similar, I think you'd need one of the guests to have taken some amount of art off the wall, and brought it to a storage unit, and then the art later was stolen from the storage unit, and you don't have access to the storage unit.
It's not as good as the naked pictures example because what's been taken is copies of something sensitive, not the whole thing
This is the traditional way of thinking, and a good question, but it is not the only way.
An able bodied person can fully make complaints against any business that fails their Americans with Disabilities Act obligation. In fact these complaints by able bodied well-doers is the de facto enforcement mechanism even though these people can never suffer damage from that failure.
The answer is simply to legislate the liability into existence.
That's the whole problem with "liability", isn't it? If the harms you do are diffuse enough then nobody can sue you!
The same way you can get ticketed for speeding in your car despite not actually hitting anyone or anything.
This is exactly why thinking of it in terms of individual cases of actual harm, as Americans have been conditioned to do by default, is precisely the wrong way to think about it. We're all familiar with the phrase "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure", right?
It's better to to think of it in terms of prevention. This fits into a category of things where we know they create a disproportionate risk of harm, and we therefore decide that the behavior just shouldn't be allowed in the first place. This is why there are building codes that don't allow certain ways of doing the plumbing that tend to lead to increased risk of raw sewage flowing into living spaces. The point isn't to punish people for getting poop water all over someone's nice clean carpet; the point is to keep the poop water from soaking the carpet in the first place.
Safety rules are written in blood. After a disaster there’s a push to regulate. After enough years we only see the costs of the rules and not the prevented injuries and damage. The safety regulations are then considered annoying and burdensome to businesses. Rules are repealed or left unenforced. There is another disaster…
Tangentially, there was an internet kerfuffle about someone getting in trouble for having flower planters hanging out the window of their Manhattan high rise apartment a while back, and people's responses really struck me.
People from less dense areas generally saw this as draconian nanny state absurdity. People who had spent time living in dense urban areas with high rise residential buildings, on the other hand, were more likely to think, "Yeah, duh, this rule makes perfect sense."
Similarly, I've noticed that my fellow data scientists are MUCH less likely to have social media accounts. I'd like to think it's because we are more likely to understand the kinds of harm that are possible with this kind of data collection, and just how irreparable that harm can be.
Perhaps Americans are less likely to support Europe-style privacy rules than Europeans are because Americans are less likely than Europeans to know people who saw first-hand some of what was happening in Europe in the 20th century.
I agree. Let me tell you about what just happened to me. After a very public burnout and spiral, a friend rescued me and I took a part time gig helping a credit card processing company. About 2 months ago, the owner needed something done while I was out, and got their uber driver to send an email. They emailed the entire customer database, including bank accounts, socials, names, addresses, finance data, to a single customer. When I found out, (was kept hidden from me for 11 days) I said "This is a big deal, here are all the remediations and besides PCI we have 45 days by law to notify affected customers." The owner said "we aren't going to do that", and thus I had to turn in my resignation and am now unemployed again.
So me trying to do the right thing, am now scrambling for work, while the offender pretends nothing happened while potentially violating the entire customer base, and will likely suffer no penalty unless I report it to PCI, which I would get no reward for.
Why is it everywhere I go management is always doing shady stuff. I just want to do linuxy/datacentery things for someone who's honest... /cry
My mega side project isn't close enough to do a premature launch yet. Despite my entire plan being to forgo VC/investors, I'm now considering compromising.