Comment by exabrial
Comment by exabrial 3 days ago
I'm not really mad at companies for doing this, I'm sad that the same ways are not available to ordinary overtaxed people.
Comment by exabrial 3 days ago
I'm not really mad at companies for doing this, I'm sad that the same ways are not available to ordinary overtaxed people.
I mean, the clear way to deal with this is to make them choose, and allow import tariffs. Get taxed where the nexus is, and pay to bring the value to other jurisdictions.
I understand that the web of various tax laws and trade agreements makes this impossible though. 80 years of cruft is too much to sift through to improve things in one fell swoop I suppose.
> the clear way to deal with this is to make them choose
My understanding is that the whole problem stems from companies being able to choose. Apple chose to pay taxes in Ireland for some things, because Ireland gave them a tax advantage, thus avoiding taxes in other European countries.
Allowing import tariffs between EU countries would maybe help with this but cause other problems. The EU free market isn't a whim, it has good reasons to exist and significant benefits.
There is no "clear way" to fix this. If there was, it would be used already.
> There is no "clear way" to fix this. If there was, it would be used already.
What do you mean by "this"? When I said "this", I meant this specific form of tax avoidance. There is a clear way to fix it, as I mentioned.
When you say "this" it seems like you mean tax avoidance in general, in which case I would agree that there is no clear way to fix it.
Maybe part of the reason ordinary people are "overtaxed" is that companies are able to do this.
No it’s because an un-elected class of political invents new ways to launder our money over and over. How else does a politician with a small salary end u on millionaire over and over? They do not get book and consulting deals out of the goodness of the public hearts
@knodi123, what is partisan about fleabagmange's statement? They don't mention any politician, political party, or even political ideology.
More to the point, it isn't the politicians of only one party who are getting rich this way.
Is there a reason you don't seem to be considering that companies lobby politicians to allow this?
Of course they do. But "lower taxes on ordinary people by defunding corruption" is a very different proposal than "sustain funding for corruption by raising taxes".
Given that 100% tax compliance at the highest rates would not solve any high tax nation’s budget holes
You should be asking the same questions that companies are asking: instead of “why arent we getting hosed equally” its “why are we getting hosed at all”
Improving IRS tax collection enforcement could generate significant funds
In fiscal year 2021 the IRS managed more than $4.1 trillion in tax revenue. The annual tax gap was estimated at $688 billion in 2021, with $625 billion remaining uncollected even after enforcement efforts.
16.7 percent.
So collecting all those extra taxes would cover somewhere south of 25% of the budget deficit for 2021. You aren’t wrong, but the parent isn’t wrong either.
yeah absolutely, I look at the nation’s debt load - which it does pay interest on from tax revenues - and its increase of debt load alongside actual spending of debt sale proceeds, and compare that to how much it collects in taxes
I use that government’s official sources to do that math
Additionally, in some nations, there are underfunded liabilities, future necessary spending
And it all far eclipses what the nation makes in revenue from taxes, tariffs and productive industries it owns - if any
If there an aspect of accounting that I’m misunderstanding, by all means enlighten me
I really despise some of these anarcho capitalist arguments.
A society that isn't lifted by redistributing wealth through taxes creates nothing but a more inequal and dangerous society for everyone.
We can all argue about inefficiencies, what is the right amount of spending and funding, but redistributing taxes by creating socially needed projects, from roads that you use, to ports through your shipments to policing streets so your daughter is safer when she goes out with friends. The list is so long.
People don't even realize how much wealth and prosperity has been created by redistributing wealth through taxes.
Capitalism only works if someone gets hosed. And of course as we all know, the only alternative to capitalism is communism which is scary and evil! Don't you see how good you have it under the hose?
Given the nature of the human being, there’s no way to live in a free society without someone being hosed. And even then, capitalism has improved the life conditions of those hosed. Communism removes the freedom for everyone and it is effectively hosing everyone at the same time.
> I'm not really mad at companies for doing this
I am, regardless of the effect on individuals, it skews the market away from smaller entrants and allows those that have reached enough of a size to be able to afford to play these games to leverage a huge advantage.
As well as killing local competition there's also the pure hypocrisy of firms such as Apple (and they're not the only offender) passing themselves off as some kind of moral authority whist at the same time aggressively refusing to pay taxes towards hospitals and schools in the local markets they operate in.
They can present themselves anyway they like but it does leave a bad taste in the mouth.
I personally am.
Because people are often overtaxed due to high tax elusion/avoidance/evasion.
E.g. in Italy, around 10 to 15% taxes are evaded in many ways. That bill is then paid by regular taxpayers.
If even more people avoided taxes that would just make the issue worse.
This seems like a really backward way of thinking. You seem to be advocating for complex tax loopholes to be opened for individuals rather than advocating for simple, but lowered taxes.
I understood it more as "the individuals should be taxed the same (so, much lower amount) as corporations".
If company X can pay just <small percent> of their income as taxes (all together), why can't random bobby do the same?
The law requires you to have a fire extinguisher in your office? Sure, buy one, but since it's a cost of doing business, that money comes from the pre-tax pile and is not taxed extra. The law requires me to wear pants when I go out, why do i have to buy them from post-tax pile of money (so, after ~50% gone to the government), and still pay 9.5% VAT on them? I can buy those same black jeans as a company (eg. consider black jeans a work uniform), and avoid all those taxes). Rent? Pre-tax money for a comoany, post-tax for an individual. In some countries (eg. mine, slovenia) you have even bigger stupidities... you have a CO2 tax (and some other) on gasoline (and other fuels), and you pay VAT on top of that tax... the co2 tax included in the base to calculate the VAT... you literally pay taxes on taxes. Again, businesses don't have to pay that VAT (they deduct it) because well.. they need the company car to do business.
The distinction is business vs personal, not company vs individual. A sole trader can usually do avoid income and VAT on all those things (except some deductions pertaining to payroll benefits). Some countries have an alternative arrangement where very small traders pay VAT but also retain VAT on the products they sell rather than actually netting out the VAT on a return.
what's backwards about that? driving to the neighboring town for cheaper gas (because the gas tax happens to be lower) is just as legal as these complex multijurisdiction incongruencies
yes, I believe car ownership should be more accessible to people to be able to ponder such a drive
Frankly I don't even understand why companies are taxed at all. Taxes are proportional to individuals' income so that the pain of contributing to the collective good is distributed fairly. Companies don't feel any pleasure or pain, they need money as a commodity- it pays people, investments, innovation, talent. Money and other benefits should be taxed when they are transferred to individuals, not before.
Ordinary people can buy the stock of the said companies and benefit from the tax saved. Probably they already own them through pension funds.
Which, to me, looks very subpar rather than companies paying taxes in the country where they actually make profit
That take feels kinda... Detached from the average person to me? I don't know how to take it, just like when you hear gates saying a banana cost 10$. Common Joe would benefit much more from taxes being actually paid than profits being accumulated by companies just so they can crush the competition more and earn more and (...)
> just like when you hear gates saying a banana cost 10$
When was that?
And presumably some of the 66% are either children/students who have never had a job but will have a 401k or similar when they get one, or retirees who cashed out their 401k and bought an annuity (perhaps not the absolute smartest thing to do, but something a decent number of people do).
Ordinary people can't do this because they missed the window, but also because their labor has a clear nexus. This scheme worked because when a product is designed in one locale, built in another, and sold in a third, there's some reasonable question of what the nexus of the income is.
Ordinary people that have written books or songs or otherwise earn royalties from creative works on a regular basis could probably have arranged for ownership of their royalties to be owned by a complex corporate structure as well, but I don't know that very many ordinary people earn enough in royalties that tax avoidance is worth the setup and maintenance costs.