Comment by jerf

Comment by jerf 3 days ago

64 replies

For those who have not dipped into the so-called Golden or Silver Age science fiction, Chandler's pastiche is quite accurate. There was a lot of what TV Tropes (warning: TV Tropes) refers to as "Call A Rabbit a 'Smerp'": https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CallARabbitASmee...

Even the mere act of walking out to one's "car", opening the door, getting in, and zooming away could be an act of adventure.

It would still be quite purple [1], though. A well-known trope of the time. For some reason TV Tropes hadn't covered it yet, though, so I guess we should cut the authors some slack on that front.

I would consider "My breath froze into pink pretzels." effectively unredeemable, though. Malzberg's rehabilitation attempt on that fails, in my opinion, and by the time someone wrote around it I think the surrounding prose would already have passed the Purple Event Horizon itself.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_prose

setgree 3 days ago

The second chapter of Anne McCaffrey's 'Dragonflight', written in 1968, opens with: "F'lar, on bronze Mnementh's great neck, appeared first in the skies above the chief Hold of Fax, so-called Lord of the High Reaches."

  • Suppafly 3 days ago

    Maybe because I read a lot of scifi and fantasy, despite not having read any Anne McCaffrey, but that doesn't seem particularly hard to parse or understand.

    • m463 2 days ago

      I seem to read more fiction now than I ever have, but much of it now slips through publishing (and editing)

      So novels that start like that make me read uphill. Way better to plunge into the book.

      The first few lines of books I recently liked...

      "DEATH CAME FOR him through the trees."

      "Gallegher played by ear, which would have been all right had he been a musician - but he was a scientist. A drunken and erratic one, but good."

      “Like any good story, it began with a girl. It was supposed to end with a bullet."

      "The level was at his top lip now. Even with his head pressed hard back against the stones of the cell wall his nose was only just above the surface. He wasn’t going to get his hands free in time; he was going to drown."

      a little conflicted on this one:

      "ON TUESDAY, OCTOBER 11, 1988, the Jason Taverner Show ran thirty seconds short. A technician, watching through the plastic bubble of the control dome, froze the final credit on the video section, then pointed to Jason Taverner, who had started to leave the stage. The technician tapped his wrist, pointed to his mouth."

      The books that made me read uphill in sentence 1 loosely correlate with the rest of the book.

      Makes me think of the MrBeast pdf from yesterday wrt the first crucial seconds of a youtube video.

    • permo-w 3 days ago

      it has four, going on five, esoteric proper nouns in one sentence. it's not hard to parse, but it isn't something I love reading either.

      I'm reminded of the Illuminatus Trilogy, which at times is barely more than proper nouns arranged into sentences at random. like Finnegan's Wake but with more flower power

      • rectang 3 days ago

        Compare with the first sentence of The Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkien:

        > There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.

        • setgree 3 days ago

          except for 'Arda', every new word is defined/clarified.

          I'm a huge LOTR fan and a moderate Silmarillion fan, and I can see how maybe Tolkien is guilty of this 'new words for familiar things' problem.. I guess when Tolkien does it, I'm enchanted, e.g. the first non-introduction line in _Fellowship_:

          > When Mr Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton.

          To me this immediately evokes: we're in a foreign land, but it's going to be vaguely small-town England in its manners and interests.

      • thaumasiotes 2 days ago

        > it has four, going on five, esoteric proper nouns in one sentence.

        F'lar is unexplained within that sentence. Mnementh is also unexplained, but sounds like a constellation.

        Fax and the High Reaches are explicitly marked as the names of a person and a place. Those are going to appear as proper nouns no matter what genre you're reading. It's the only possible way to do things. This is like complaining that Robin Hood's primary antagonist is the Sheriff of Nottingham. What's the complaint?

      • dannyobrien 3 days ago

        Not surprisingly, Robert Anton Wilson, one half of the writing team behind Illuminatus, was a huge fan and scholar of James Joyce. Indeed in the first volume, the character Epicene Wildeblood writes, a damning dismissal of what is obviously meant to be the trilogy itself, describing it as "a very pretentious imitation of Faulkner and Joyce"[1]. I can't think of anything more Joycean. (Epicene doesn't think much of science fiction either, even when she transitions into a more relaxed Mary Margaret Wildeblood in the later Schrodinger's Cat trilogy.)

        [1] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Illuminatu...

      • PhasmaFelis 3 days ago

        > it has four, going on five, esoteric proper nouns in one sentence. it's not hard to parse, but it isn't something I love reading either.

        Even so. If the sentence was something like "Kowalski's Mosquito soared high above the Führerbunker, Hitler's final redoubt in Berlin," no one would find that problematic. McCaffrey's sentence is only troubling if you've already assumed that made-up names are inherently bad writing.

      • aredox 3 days ago

        It reminds me of opening the bible - especially the books in the old testament- or any old compendium of legends from ancient civilisations.

  • aaroninsf 3 days ago

    What's funny is that this register and conceit is one that I dearly love among science fiction and fantasy writers,

    provided they fulfill the implicit promise, that on a second reading all such things will be clear.

    It's an intentional device. Andre Norton is particularly adept at this: when accounting for my deep love of her many thin "pulp" novels, many of which exist in the same universe, something I regularly praise is the way she almost as a signature drops you without exposition into drama.

    The conceit of a chatty expositional conversational narrator who can in effect be imaged to be turning to their friend-from-out-of-town to helpfully explain what this thing is or what the significance of that is—often with a presumed familiarity with the frame of reference their audience might hanve—is by contrast a crutch and now most characteristic of what we call Young Adult fiction.

    Trust in the reader, and trust in their sufficient interest to file such things away, is, I think, characteristic of a different era—one that demanded more of readers. I don't think it's a coincidence that our own era finds this off-putting.

    We're lazy now, and we have small token windows.

    EDIT: and I could probably have reproduced, or at least completed, that line of McCaffery's, from memory—though that particular book shows its age and its history in being the first short story she wrote about her world Pern. She got a lot softer and more sentimental as she went along, and less prone to patriarchal stereotypes she brought along from her work as a romance writer.

  • tialaramex 3 days ago

    McCaffrey is on that TV Tropes list, I have only read a few of her novels and she does jump out for obvious examples of this trope.

    It's tricky to write an opening sentence though. We all recognise "Call me Ishmael" and probably "Last night I dreamt I went to Manderley again" is obvious to lots of people but for example, "I am always drawn back to places where I have lived, the houses and their neighbourhoods" doesn't exactly promise Breakfast at Tiffany's does it?

    By the second chapter I think you've earned a lot of leeway, either the reader is engaged and will soldier on despite your six new nouns and what might be a new word or possibly a new meaning for a word they know already - or they have probably set the book down some time ago and will never see this sentence anyway.

  • ryangs 3 days ago

    I think proper nouns get a bit more of a pass in terms of purple prose.

    • setgree 3 days ago

      I also enjoy the non-standard punctuation, e.g. F'lax -- how would you pronounce that?

      • mock-possum 3 days ago

        Ooh this is fun trivia - originally dragons had a hard time with human names, so it became a tradition for dragon riders (particularly males) to adopt the dragon’s pronunciation as an honorific. So “Simon” becomes “S’mon.”

        You say it with a bit of a slur - suhMON or fuhLAX - where the first syllable is not only unemphasized but uttered as quickly as possible then slurred into the next. F’lar really is just “fuhLAR”

      • FactolSarin 3 days ago

        The apostrophe here most likely represents a glottal stop (as in Hawai'i).

        • thaumasiotes 2 days ago

          Unlikely, since no English speaker would be able to pronounce that cluster. The odds are overwhelming that it represents nothing at all, just like the apostrophe in "don't".

      • pavlov 3 days ago

        In Finnish, the apostrophe marks a syllable break between instances of the same vowel, and sounds like a very short pause. Maybe they use Finnish spelling rules on this planet.

        Example word: vaa'an — genetive of "vaaka" = "scale"

      • PhasmaFelis 3 days ago

        IIRC, dragonriders always elide part of their name, and indicate the gap with an apostrophe. It's consistent and explained in the text at some point.

shadowgovt 3 days ago

Fortunately, science fiction left behind those inclinations. The cyberscapes of the glittering arcologies where street sams zero every gonk, rimbo, and cyberpsycho that comes their way for fun, eddies, or to just to look nova to their favorite input or output demand your data be crystal, choom.

PhasmaFelis 3 days ago

I can't remember the details, but sometime in the '70s or '80s a sci-fi magazine ran a contest: take a short text (something like "a man gets onto a bus and notices another man wearing an unusual hat") and rewrite it in the distinctive style of a sci-fi writer of your choice.

The winning results were pretty entertaining. I only remember the Heinlein entry having something like "Why, he's using plasteel for his helmet liner instead of ferrocrete!"

  • tetris11 3 days ago

    I would love to see a Gene Wolf rendition of that

permo-w 3 days ago

"My breath froze into pink pretzels." was the only bit of the excerpt I found interesting. I suppose pretzel is a bit of a kitschy choice for the centre of a metaphor, but the overall effect of it was to raise some interesting questions: is there a breathable atmosphere for humans that could precipitate pink ice breath? is our protagonist even human? is there a shop nearby selling Judaism-adjacent baked goods?

Jerrrrrrry 3 days ago

  "My breath froze into pink pretzels."
The temperature in the synthetic atmosphere wasn't precisely enough to prevent the character's exothermic respiration from condensing, inconveniently.
  • jerf 3 days ago

    It's the word "pretzel", honestly. I can cover breath freezing pink by the standards of the era, no problem. Took a shot to the lungs & helmet and left to die on the ice planet. I doubt that would "really" produce frozen pink breath but what we would now consider "hard" sci-fi that would care about that sort of thing generally didn't travel with this sort of purple prose so that's not really an issue.

    But pretzels? Why is your breath freezing in pretzels? Even pretzel "rods", let alone twists?

    • derefr 3 days ago

      As a sci-fi writer who likes a spot of silly world-building myself, this line doesn't seem particularly absurd to me, but it does paint me a mental image of something the author very likely didn't intend to communicate:

      Picture a world whose surface is covered in an ocean of hyper-oxygenated dense fluid (like the kind used in liquid-breathing experiments.)

      (The fluid isn't cold! The "freezing" isn't a description of the temperature, but of motion ceasing.)

      Now imagine this fluid with the appearance of a gel ant farm, with eaten-through trails in it — but rather than these trails being hollow, they're full of a cotton-candy-like pink "fluff".

      Why? Through some kind of chemical reaction, exhalation of the now-CO2-saturated-and-warmed fluid into the medium, causes the formation and rapid expansion of a (pink!) aerogel, where the "gel" is "something from the fluid, plus water from your breath" and the "aero" is "nitrogen and CO2".

      This aerogel is neutrally or even positively buoyant relative to the dense medium — so it doesn't fall or pour out of your mouth, but rather worms its way out, curving around your face in a random, pretzel-like extrusion pattern, fighting its way out, pushing against the working fluid.

      I would imagine that, to continue to breathe safely in this strange medium, you would have to 1. always breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth; and 2. ensure that the reaction product of your exhalation doesn't linger to stick to your face as it forms.

      So the optimal way to survive, would be to constantly, briskly walk backward, with this exhalation product extruding away from you like a rocket engine's exhaust (or perhaps more like spaetzle) as you walk.

      I imagine you would frequently walk through trails of (your own or others') exhalation product. Which might feel somewhat like walking through gathered up hunks of spiderweb.

      I also imagine that this reaction would probably be happening to some degree in your throat and lungs as well, rapidly giving you something like silicosis. Depending on how much tension you want in the plot, you could either just embrace this as "putting a timer on" getting off this planet; or you could posit that the character would be able to pry just the filter from their rebreather, using it to ensure that the reaction never occurs inside of them (but further increasing the strain of breathing in this medium.)

      • kwhitefoot 3 days ago

        Sounds like something Peter Watts might have invented. I like it, sort of; almost plausible, barely survivable, and deeply unpleasant.

      • mgsouth 3 days ago

        Don't forget the the, uh, pink widows? _Rosencrantz_ ("they're pinkish and make you dead, like him and Gildunstern"). Venemous ambush predators, low density (mostly made of this aeogel with hydrogen bladders). About an inch across and 8 inches long, like pink hovering snakes. They float, hiding in the exhalation contrails, waiting for prey to blunder into them.

    • Jerrrrrrry 3 days ago

      The atmosphere isn't homogenized perfectly, leading to turbulent condensation.

      Micheal Crichton's Sphere mentions this (actual) fact in regards to certain gases, such as Helium, being needed in high pressure environments to counter act oxygen poisoning and nitrogen narcosis, but due to differing thermal properties, can lead to hot/cold spots, thermal turbulence, etc.

      • Vecr 3 days ago

        I never understood why the spaceplane had an atmosphere with helium in it, though. Either Crichton messed up or got confused about the mixing issues there (as well as the massive logistics problems, the plane was huge).

bentcorner 3 days ago

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_prose

Enlightening article - this is the exact complaint I have with the world-building Bungie does, and now I have a word to describe it. Halo is somewhat grounded, with Humans feeling familiar but the Covenant are both literally and literally (!) purple. Destiny is (IMO) so full of pink pretzels that it's undecipherable to newcomers.

idiotsecant 3 days ago

I have to admit i read the comments before i read the article and this comment made me feel like I was having a stroke

acchow 3 days ago

> Even the mere act of walking out to one's "car", opening the door, getting in, and zooming away could be an act of adventure.

It's incredible how much screen time is dedicated to the opening/closing of car doors and the the driving of cars into/out of parking lots or driveways. Tho I guess this somewhat reflects life in America.

  • fwip 3 days ago

    Easy transitional/establishing shots. Serves the same sort of purpose as when the show/movie serves up some wide shots of a city or the country, informing the viewer "we are at a new location," but more personal.