Comment by Noaidi 3 days ago
But do people who have dementia or say a mental illness have the capacity to make that decision?
It sounds like Daniel Kahneman was suffering from depression after his wife's death and all he saw in the rest of his life was sadness. He had no hope. What day was the best day to die? What if the next day his hope came back?
> What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day?
Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they? How many people struggling today think that their life will get no better? Look at all those who made it through slavery, what hope did they have? Their hope came from their faith.
Suffering has a purpose, this is something your grandmother understands through her faith. Buddhists understand this as well. Maybe the problem is not our suffering, but our lack of faith in others and in in something bigger than ourselves.
Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all christians/buddhists share that believe)
So sure, suffering and pain are part of life. And accepting that helps a lot to not get stuck in that condition by avoiding painful things, you cannot avoid.
"Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they?"
So no, not anyone is saying that. Only those with a death wish.
And I don't consider having a death wish as a mental condition. It can of course result of a illness, but it can also be a consciouss wish and then finally a decision.
And if other people decide they may not do this, but have to remain in their state of living hell, then this is just torture to me.
> Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all christians/buddhists share that believe)
At the very least, suffering (through childbirth) is a prerequisite to bringing life into this world.
edit: strange that this is flagged. my parent asked for proof that suffering is inherent in life, and I don't know anyone who has said that the physical act of giving birth is anything but painful.
The first of the four noble truths set fourth by the Buddha:
The truth of dukkha: Recognizing that suffering is a fundamental part of existence
They even call Joy “hidden suffering”. Because whenever the thing is that gives us joy, if we become attached to it and it is taken away then we have suffering.
And the Christians believe that the suffering of Christ was needed to forgive everyone of their sins.
So they both view suffering as an important aspect of life. Something to be used for learning and understanding the human condition.
But the buddhist and the Christians believe that you can escape what you would think of a state of constant suffering through religious practices. It’s the faith the American slaves had in Christ that got them through their state of living hell. And we’ve even seen a Buddhist light themselves on fire to protest the war in Vietnam. So I’m sorry, but I can’t look upon suffering as something that’s negative and I accept it as part of life and just as I can learn things from joy and I can learn things from suffering, and they are both the same size of the coin and equally as valuable.
If I’m 95 years old with terminal cancer, my life isn’t going to get better.
And please don’t bring some mythical being in the argument.
Both the Buddha andJesus were real people. I wasn’t bringing up God as I don’t believe in a Christian God, and Buddhists don’t believe in God at all.
But those two characters taught us a lot about suffering. Where it comes from and how to face suffering with courage and not just throw your morals out the window once you have the glimpse of even future suffering.
Maybe it’s just me, but I see every moment as the best it can possibly be. Whether I’m seeing this gorgeous sunny blue sky today or I’m 95 years old with terminal cancer. It’s a miracle to be born and to exist in this world, it’s extremely rare. And I want to live every last second of it. Maybe that’s what’s upsetting me about reading what he wrote. If you just try to grab the good times in this life and use that as a goal you’re going to be severely disappointed.
> Suffering has a purpose
Maybe some suffering has a purpose, and some suffering does not? It doesn't have to be always this or always that.
Let's see how you handle suffering when it comes knocking on your door
He shared his brother had shizophrenia and much later died of it. I assume he did got a glimpse into what suffering means.
Why do you see depression? Note the article mentions a partner--he lost his wife but he had found someone else so I do not think this is a result of losing his wife.
I think it was this part that stuck out to me.
“His partner died in 2018 as a result of vascular dementia. The loss affected him deeply.”
I can see that loss affecting him even though he had a new partner. Depression does not always go away when you meet someone new.
But I think people with depression have lost hope in the future. And it sounds like he lost Hope in his future.
> it sounds like he lost hope in his future
People in their 80's are watching their friends die one after the other. They aren't fooling themselves about their long-term prospects. No problems with enjoying life, I support that, but it's hard to believe the end isn't coming for you like it comes for everyone else.
I just think this idea that it is "hope" or "depression" is wrong-headed.
Having some older friends might give you a deeper perspective.
I am old. I have friends in their 70s and I have friends that died of cancer and suicide and heart attacks. I had a father who died terribly of a rapid spreading cancer and a mother who lived with chronic pain and heart disease for 30 years. I have friends who like me live in poverty some of them suffer from it, others of us don’t.
If you lived in your 80s and you have not figured out what life is about then that’s not a problem with life, that’s a problem with the person who did not figure out life.
This is the spiritual quest that I think is missing in the world right now. I’m not really being woo-woo here and I’m not talking about God or any other mythical being. I’m talking about the amazing thing that it is to be alive. Being alive is not just about happiness, but you can be joyous experiencing both happiness and suffering. Our suffering will end, and our happiness will end.
Acceptance of the things you can’t change is the key here. I am no stoic that’s for sure. If you’re too hot, move into the shade. But if I have no shade and I’m suffering the heat, how much more happy am I going to be when I finally reach shade!
It’s my friends who went through the deepest suffering that are the most happy and joyous. It’s these people who teach us about life, Not the people who kill themselves because they’re afraid of looking like an old man.
That's not how I see it.
It was seeing my father's death that really solidified it for me that there are things worse than death. I am not in the slightest depressed about it, though.
"What if the next day his hope came back?"
What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day?
And people don't get any younger.
My grandmother is 98. She hates her life since she could not go out anymore. But she is catholic and suicide would be a mortal sin. So she waits till gods take her. And suffers till then.
I would make a different choice for sure. If life is hell and no one depends on me, why should I continue the suffering? (At the cost of others, if I would need help?)
But my plan is of course to reach 120+ in good health. But if I decide I had enough, it will be my decision.