Comment by cwillu 3 days ago
You can quite easily draw a line that society does not get to force someone to live a tormented existence in spite of their prior declaration that they do not want to be tormented.
“It shouldn't be that way” is not an excuse to torture people through your moralizing indifference to the fact that it is that way.
If you visit an elderly care home you'll find plenty of people who express their wish that they don't want to live any longer. It's not getting better for them - they are just waiting for the day to come, often in agony.
But do people who have dementia or say a mental illness have the capacity to make that decision?
It sounds like Daniel Kahneman was suffering from depression after his wife's death and all he saw in the rest of his life was sadness. He had no hope. What day was the best day to die? What if the next day his hope came back?
"What if the next day his hope came back?"
What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day?
And people don't get any younger.
My grandmother is 98. She hates her life since she could not go out anymore. But she is catholic and suicide would be a mortal sin. So she waits till gods take her. And suffers till then.
I would make a different choice for sure. If life is hell and no one depends on me, why should I continue the suffering? (At the cost of others, if I would need help?)
But my plan is of course to reach 120+ in good health. But if I decide I had enough, it will be my decision.
> What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day?
Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they? How many people struggling today think that their life will get no better? Look at all those who made it through slavery, what hope did they have? Their hope came from their faith.
Suffering has a purpose, this is something your grandmother understands through her faith. Buddhists understand this as well. Maybe the problem is not our suffering, but our lack of faith in others and in in something bigger than ourselves.
Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all christians/buddhists share that believe)
So sure, suffering and pain are part of life. And accepting that helps a lot to not get stuck in that condition by avoiding painful things, you cannot avoid.
"Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they?"
So no, not anyone is saying that. Only those with a death wish.
And I don't consider having a death wish as a mental condition. It can of course result of a illness, but it can also be a consciouss wish and then finally a decision.
And if other people decide they may not do this, but have to remain in their state of living hell, then this is just torture to me.
If I’m 95 years old with terminal cancer, my life isn’t going to get better.
And please don’t bring some mythical being in the argument.
> Suffering has a purpose
Maybe some suffering has a purpose, and some suffering does not? It doesn't have to be always this or always that.
Let's see how you handle suffering when it comes knocking on your door
Why do you see depression? Note the article mentions a partner--he lost his wife but he had found someone else so I do not think this is a result of losing his wife.
I think it was this part that stuck out to me.
“His partner died in 2018 as a result of vascular dementia. The loss affected him deeply.”
I can see that loss affecting him even though he had a new partner. Depression does not always go away when you meet someone new.
But I think people with depression have lost hope in the future. And it sounds like he lost Hope in his future.
> it sounds like he lost hope in his future
People in their 80's are watching their friends die one after the other. They aren't fooling themselves about their long-term prospects. No problems with enjoying life, I support that, but it's hard to believe the end isn't coming for you like it comes for everyone else.
I just think this idea that it is "hope" or "depression" is wrong-headed.
Having some older friends might give you a deeper perspective.
That's not how I see it.
It was seeing my father's death that really solidified it for me that there are things worse than death. I am not in the slightest depressed about it, though.
I've wondered about this for my hypothetical future self.
Currently? I'd say that I wouldn't want to live with dementia, but what if my "demented self" (kinda hate the phrasing, sorry) in the future wants to live, or doesn't remember they don't want to live?
Do I have a say over the life of someone who doesn't remember they were me?