Waymo rides cost more than Uber or Lyft and people are paying anyway
(techcrunch.com)494 points by achristmascarl 5 days ago
494 points by achristmascarl 5 days ago
Americans have been raised for a couple generations to be afraid of people. "Stranger danger." Apocalyptic news media. A general millenarianism-run-amok "the final battle between good and evil is coming and evil outnumbers us" assumption that permeates much of American culture across the political spectrum. Catastrophizing.
Somehow that had an impact on our social skills! It takes a lot of work to de-program that if you're not a natural extrovert.
This is a disingenuous take. Americans value their time probably more than any other culture. I’d rather be able to keep reading a book, read some interesting HN content or talk with my friends on Discord more than have small talk with a random uber driver.
The example starting this discussion was not "avoid talking to a taxi driver." It was "book the taxi with an app at higher cost vs using the phone." No Waymos in Europe for them to avoid the drivers with just yet. Simply spending to avoid a phone call.
I'm skeptical we save a lot of time with our technology-mediated world. I think I could say "one medium pizza with pepperoni" and hear back "ok it'll be ready in 20 minutes" on a phone call quicker than I can put that order in with a device. Apps/websites are only better for group orders that require coordination. That's after I've picked out the restaurant, of course, but there is no shortage of literature on how the huge menu of choices presented by modern app-based services usually slows down people's decision making. (Amusingly this may swing back the other way, just with us talking to LLM-backed machines soon, but I find it hard to believe "we don't want to talk to the guy at the pizza place because we value our time THAT MUCH.") Compared to the phenomenon discussed in all sorts of media from https://www.reddit.com/r/memes/comments/15ecqat/phonephobia/ to https://www.thecut.com/article/psychologists-explain-your-ph... to https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/gen-z-developing-fear-o...
Very curious if you have a source for that time value bit. I find it hard to believe. We Americans often have EXTREMELY long commutes using a mode of transportation that allows less multitasking than most others. I don't mind my car-based commute personally - it lets me listen to music in peace - but that's similar to how I don't mind making small talk while getting my hair cut - it's a peaceful respite from the usual noise of modern life. Certainly a nice change of pace from using that time to scroll social media or argue on the internet even more.
You may not agree with it but I fail to see how it’s disingenuous
Americans are often a bit early on trends but honestly as a German, I would love to see waymo here. We are very slow at adapting new tech so it probably still be many years away but it would be a total game changer for me.
Especially if they offered an option for pet-owners. Being able to just chill with your pet and not bothering anyone would be amazing.
Why? Just the consistency is worth the extra money. You know exactly what type of car you are getting. You don't have to worry about getting a bad driver or anything. It just works. Plus the whole tipping thing just sucks. I don't want to decide whether to tip and how much. I want to pay what the service costs and that is that.
Also personally, I just don't like people serving me. Probably because I would barely survive a day in a customer facing job myself. I never quite sure if they attempt smalltalk because they want to talk or if they expect to get a better rating. It is just so awkward.
There are people that genuinely like to work in service jobs of course and long term job loss will suck for them so I am not exactly helping.
Years ago when I worked in the food industry, customers would voluntarily pay 20% more for the entire meal just to use the doordash app instead of calling us up. We informed repeat customers that they pay a premium to use 3rd party apps - they just kept using them anyway.
Talking on the phone is the most painful form of conversation for me. The sound quality is often awful, due to the ambient noises picked up by phone, which occurs particularly often for busy restaurants. You don't know if the other side has heard you because you can't see them and there's no visual signal, so there's more back and forth, prolonging the pain. Since you are ordering via the phone, you have to pay by reading out your credit card number. People sometimes hesitate, and you don't know if it's a bad connection, or if they have just paused......
So yeah, I'd gladly pay a bit more to order via an app. When I'm ordering delivery, I'm already paying premium on that day anyway, the margin of which is way higher than 20%, so I might as well go all the way and avoid dealing with something I don't like.
If I'm not using an app, I'd rather run a mile to make the order in person, than make a phone call.
Agreed it’s madness. Ordering a pizza delivery in my city is almost $40. Somehow pizzerias were able to do it cheaper and faster.
The apps are awful as well. I delivered when I was gifted some gift cards after a loss in the family they raise the prices with gift card balances.
For the first time in my several decades, I live in walking distance to amenities (e.g. bank, hardware store, local & fast -foods).
Literally across the street from my neighborhood is among "the best local pizzarias," and I'll still offer to pay for the entire order if somebody else orders / picks-up ("tip them well" I'll usually suggest). I just don't want to talk on the phone (and don't use apps).
...Americuhly, the usual neighbor still drives (it's like 1000m, round-trip).
This. It used to be that customer service agents in America were super helpful and would go an extra mile for you. Not any more, dealing with customer service is just a lot of pain, and often a waste of time.
As an example, let's say you have a problem with Windows. Would you rather ask AI for help or a human support agent on the microsoft's website?
> They will pay more to use a service that has an app, rather than call up another taxi company by phone for example
Using an app for taxi booking is so superior to ordering by phone (even excluding potential preference for not talking to service providers) that I have trouble understanding what's puzzling you.
I’ve had multiple experiences of calling a cab company and them no-showing. You can call them back and it’s “oh yeah someone’s on their way, 15 minutes.” 40 minutes later, nothing.
With an app, you have a very clear indication of how far away your driver is, but more importantly whether they’re coming at all.
(Also with the EU specifically I very much had an issue with the language barrier in Florence).
Are the American's you're referencing living in the EU or back in the US? Could the language barrier be a reason for their hesitancy?
I've heard stories about gen-z/alpha being more app brained, but most of my peers in their early 30s are generally fine with calling people or sending an email perhaps depending on the service.
> Are the American's you're referencing living in the EU or back in the US?
The EU
> Could the language barrier be a reason for their hesitancy?
No:
> (and it's not a language barrier problem, because everyone speaks english)
>I've heard stories about gen-z/alpha being more app brained
I think you might be on to something there, maybe it's more of a generational thing than a cultural difference between American and EU citizens.
Reading the comments here, the experiences people are sharing feels out-of-world since I live in Tokyo and it's unthinkable to have a bad experience in a Taxi/Shareride like that. They've always been very professional, the highest quality I could expect. Cars always clean, driver always polite, etc. Sure, there WILL be some edge case out there, but I've ridden taxis and Uber many times here and not a single odd experience, nothing at all like what is being described in these messages.
> I live in Tokyo
I also live in Tokyo and surely you’re not expecting Japanese taxi standards to be remotely comparable to US Uber or Lyft, right? It’s a race to the bottom in any major US metro. Japanese taxis are refined and designed around passenger comfort. There is a specific model of car for Taxis. In the US you’re rolling the dice on what Uber or Lyft offer.
I'm not from the US, I'm from Spain and while they are better in Japan than in Spain, it's not like the "out-of-world" difference that I'm seeing in these comments. That's why I'm confused, I expected the US to be similar to Europe in these regards. I have taken Uber a couple of times while traveling to the US (long ago though), and while they were dirtier than in other countries it wasn't that bad as the comments suggest.
So either things have gone dramatically downhill or I had a "good" experience in my brief US rides relatively speaking.
As a non-American, I am not sure why it's so crazy to think standards would be high in other countries? Grab standards and quality in e.g. Taiwan, Thailand, etc IS within the same order of magnitude as Japan and those are much poorer countries than the US.
In Austin, Waymos are hailed via the Uber app, which will quote you a price which is good for either a conventional Uber or a Waymo, and you get a Waymo if one is available. Same price. The Waymo is actually cheaper because there's no tip.
The issue I have with Waymo is that getting in and out of those i-Paces as a "person of height" is rather difficult - I really have to do a strange contortion - and if I want to sit in the right rear, there's nobody in front to pull the seat up for me so there's not enough legroom. (I've moved to adjusting and sitting in the front passenger seat when I get a Waymo, something human Uber drivers hate.)
Do you always tip uber/lyft drivers? I usually only will if they get out of the car and help me load or unload a heavy (40+ lbs) suitcase. If they just push the trunk open button, I'm neither giving a 5 star review nor a tip ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
for a while Austin had banned Uber/Lyft. do you know what happened to change that?
The Texas legislature enacted state-wide legislation that usurped the Austin fingerprinting requirement that caused Uber and Lyft to leave town.
https://www.texastribune.org/2017/05/29/texas-gov-greg-abbot...
People are eager to pay money to not deal with other people. Which makes me pessimistic about the future of humanity given recent developments in AI really
I question that as a general statement if the "other people" are competent, clean, and polite. That's not to say I won't do something online if it's lower friction than going into a DMV office or whatever. Though I don't really do online food delivery in general, I'm perfectly happy going to a number of local restaurants.
If I could be 100% certain that every Uber/Lyft driver I encounter would give me a perfect "social" experience (where "perfect" varies for me depending on the day), I'd choose it over Waymo at the same price. But of course that's unreasonable and impossible to expect. So for a comparable price and wait/drive time I'll pretty much always pick Waymo.
It does make me sad to some extent; I do enjoy interacting with people working service jobs in my neighborhood, people I see on a regular basis and who recognize me. But I don't think that's ever going to be the case for me for something like a taxi/rideshare driver.
When I take a booked private car back and forth to the airport (about an hour) I don't really have an issue. Sometimes the driver is chattier. Sometimes I'm chattier. Probably (likely) more expensive than an Uber would be but 100% reliable even at zero-dark-thirty times. Never had a real issue of any sort.
> AI is generally predictable quality, and it's not going to go down.
"Not going to go down" does not seem consistent with the way other tech trends have developed: magical at first, then subject to endless churn to seem dynamic and reduced quality, increased costs, or both as it becomes harder to squeeze out additional revenue.
Well it's not just the talking or otherwise awkward interactions. It's also smells and generally being in a person's personal space. Let's face it, sitting in a car, you physically get closer to the driver than you'd normally be comfortable with in an open, unrestricted space. And the car is closed too. You are essentially forced to be in their personal space. Not so with a driverless car.
Waymos are more pleasant to be in and people value comfort. I've had many Uber drivers who love to speed, which can be terrifying in SF. The bus can be a real crapshoot with who's on it. The bus also can take forever depending on where you start and where you need to go. The service that waymo provides is just on average better.
I've had many violent and borderline reckless drivers in my time in Poland. In the end, taking the tram was much safer and less stressful.
Threads like these remind me that Hacker News posters and my friends are two completely different types of people.
We don’t mind rideshare at all.
> People are eager to pay money to not deal with other people
I wonder if it's cultural. For instance I always hear how Japan has a lot of vending machines and am wondering if it's just pure tech advancement and efficiency at work, maybe lack of space to open a proper kiosk with a seller, or there is a cultural element of not wanting to "inconvenience" others having to interact with them.
One is low crime rate, vending machines even in major cities do not get vandalised or broken into. The other is Japan's massive focus on convenience.
I don't think lack of space is the issue. Combinis are everywhere but you'll still see vending machines in most parking lots and laundromats.
Tech advancement is also relevant. I believe Japan invented vending machines that serve hot and cold drinks simultaneously and they adjust with the seasons. They invented improved ways of loading the cans and spend a lot of effot on the design and art, there are even vending machine exclusive drinks etc.
Japan does have a lot of vending machines. Maybe less vandalism in Japanese cities?
But they also have a lot of staffed convenience stores (typically 7-Eleven) that are generally better than the random chain convenience store in the US (often in a gas station).
Don't know the history.
For Japan I expect it's also a matter of population/crowd density in the cities. There are tons of staffed convenience stores (7-Eleven, Family Mart, Lawson), but even with a high density of stores, they're often fairly crowded.
Having lots of vending machines even for simple things like bottled water and soft drinks reduces the pressure on the convenience stores quite a bit. More advanced vending machines with other products helps even more.
It could be that a particular segment of the population prefers the privacy and is willing to pay accordingly, while other segments of the population don't mind the social interaction, or at least are not willing to pay for its absence.
Kind of how like some people greatly prefer WFH, whereas other people like the social interaction of being in a shared working environment.
From my perspective, having the choice of whether to ride with a driver or not is a good thing.
this is true, but people are also eager to pay nothing, so I'm not sure how much "generalizations about products" are worth
People who like Waymo (and those who hang out on HN) are probably to a good degree neuro diverse, so I wouldn't write off humanity just yet. My experience with the majority of people is that they do like interacting with humans. I guess that's why we still have stores, restaurants and gasp offices when, technically speaking, there hasn't been too much of a need for any of these things for about two decades now.
i've had quite a few experiences with AWFUL uber drivers as well. i think it would be beneficial for uber to require some sort of ODB monitoring like some insurance companies do. one time on a trip to the airport, i almost had the driver pull over on the side of the road to let me know. i was GENUINELY scared by her driving.
This looks like a clickbait study. Waymo is cheaper 100% of the time for me. The two big data points I think they purposely glossed over are:
1. Tip – Uber and Lyft cost 20% more than the ride price.
2. Car quality – Sure, a Corolla on Lyft is cheaper than Waymo. But once you select something desirable the price goes up, a lot.
I love Waymo, but Waymo is not cheaper 100% of the time, unless you have that data? I've had Waymo quote me $26 where uber comfort was $11. I could "tip the bill" and still be under Waymo.
>Tip – Uber and Lyft cost 20% more than the ride price.
Idk maybe because I used rideshare apps before they added tipping, but even as someone who tips 20% at restaurants I don't tip rideshares.
The original argument Uber had for not adding it was because 'the fare included it', but seeing people now see it as required does kind of backup why they dragged their feet on adding it.
> but even as someone who tips 20% at restaurants I don't tip rideshares.
Does this not affect your rating?
My experience is very different. About a year ago I'd agree that Waymo was mostly cheaper or comparable in cost to an Uber/Lyft ride, but in the past 3-6 months I usually see Waymo at 75%-150% more than Uber/Lyft, and yes, I do account for the Uber/Lyft tip when I compare.
What's up with the US tipping culture?
I live in Romania and I only tip restaurants a standard of 10% (not fast food, not coffee, just restaurants). Also delivery people when they help bring heavy stuff into my appartment (theoretically they are only paid to bring it to the block entrance).
Back when I used taxis we would tip those. But I have never tipped an Uber. Or a Glovo (our Door Dash) deliveryman.
Started off as a way to pay people less, especially for odd jobs.
Grew to a point where it's disconnected from the actual value of the service, so people like waiters make way more than if it was priced according to market price, but people pay anyways because it's not about the service, but about not feeling guilty for being cheap. The ecosystem has now found a balance that hurts the consumer, which they're willing to put up with because it's socially ingrained. The people providing a service make more, the business owner doesn't really care, and can't get rid of tips because it's a cutthroat industry and they wouldn't get workers, and higher wages would cause sticker shock, so they too have no incentive to make any changes. The customers group is too big, and don't have enough structure to organize any meaningful change. So it is what it is.
You can see it now, people complain about how tipping is everywhere, including for walk-ins where no table service is provided, but eventually this too will be normalized.
My personal hope is that one day we start tipping our doctors, our dentists, our programmers, to see how big and stupid this dumpster fire can grow.
> Started off as a way to pay people less, especially for odd jobs.
Kind of. American tipping came out of the post-slavery south as a form of exploitation where people weren't guaranteed a wage.
This is why tipping was common in historically black jobs like hospitality, food service workers and railroad porters.
There still a federal "tipped" minimum wage at $2.13 - which some states still abide by, roughly corresponding to the historic south https://www.epi.org/publication/waiting-for-change-tipped-mi...
These also seem to be some of the worst tipping states according to most sources, https://www.lyft.com/blog/posts/the-united-states-of-tipping...
Which kind of makes sense - if people in those states invented tipping to pay people less, then those states paying tipped people less isn't that surprising ...
Cultural behavior patterns last decades, which is why there's some dissipation 150 years later.
These things can be weird. For instance coat check (person who holds on to expensive coat) and car valet (person who holds on to expensive car) is functionally equivalent with a 100 year separation so the tip culture sticks.
Same goes for the shoe shiner and car washer; the person who makes your mode of transportation more presentable.
Maybe this sounds like crazy free association, but the pattern seems to hold. Take porters and food delivery drivers, for instance, not that different.
Anyway, when you start scratching at weird american anomalies like tipping and the electoral college, usually you find something to do with slavery's long tail.
I guess that's why it doesn't work in Romania. Most romanians take a certain amount of healthy pride in being cheap, or rather, in being able to get more for as little money as possible.
If you buy the expensive beer you're not impressing too many people. But of course, there are 50 cheap beers, most of which suck. The pride is kmowing that one cheap beer that's as good as the expensive ones.
The fact that taxis often tried to extort tips out of you and lied to you about the price by not running their meters is what made Uber popular here -- it ended up being cheaper.
My advice: stop tipping. Just you, personally. If the average person tips 10%, and tomorrow everyone stopped tipping, prices will probably increase by ~10%.
So just personally stop tipping and enjoy the permaneny 10% discount all the other suckers are gifting you.
I’ve never seen Waymo be cheaper than Uber/Lyft, but then again the audacity of them charging more even when they are driverless made me stop bothering to check pretty quickly.
One of the selling points of Uber over taxis has always been that you don’t have to tip. I get that some people are excessively generous but it’s absolutely not required.
If you’re the kind of person who is willing to pay more for a fancier car, good for you. I take the bus if it could just get me from point A to point B in a reasonable time, Uber is a last resort that costs 10 times as much as public transit, at least in San Francisco. It’s disgustingly, offensively expensive. And somehow Waymo charges more? Absolutely ridiculous.
Speaking to a European woman, she said she was not surprised women would pay more not to be harassed. I guess in her country there is more of that. Me, I enjoy human interaction, but the European female angle on taxi "safety" was something I hadn't considered.
Most American women, and women all over the world, would say the same thing.
Assuming you didn’t upgrade to a different tier or pay for priority to get your uber faster or a nicer ride.
Uber also can increase the cost of the ride on you with unexpected routes or time. Yes you can complain, but I am sure plenty don’t even notice.
The math isn’t wrong, but it’s not so black and white.
I’m in the camp though of “I would pay double not to deal with a human”
Only about 15% people tip https://www.businessinsider.com/1-percent-uber-riders-always...
Important caveat to that study from right at the end of the article:
the data set used for the study, while massive, was limited to 2017 data. [...] Uber only added a tipping function to its app in 2017
So the study was either before you could even tip in the app or soon after and when it was still new.
A more recent study would interesting.
The Waymo cars are really comfortable luxury Jaguars. For Uber and Lyft there are many price tiers, but to reliably get an equally or more comfortable car you probably need to book the black car options. I’m sure Uber / Lyft are way more expensive per mile than Waymo on that tier.
In addition to all the things people have pointed out that makes it a better experience.
Almost every Uber Black and Black SUV I’ve ordered was a Chevy Suburban or GMC Yukon.
The quality is across the board, but one thing I’ve found consistent is the terrible quality seats. The seats feel like it’s just cardboard supporting you that pops in and out as you move with the car.
It’s rare to get an actual luxury car even when paying more.
Their promise of “professional” drivers is also wild. Sometimes you get a guy who’s friendly and seems eager to please and helpful with luggage, but I’ve had plenty of downright rude drivers who feel inconvenienced by my presence.
I've been taking these rides 5-6 days a week, everywhere, and also in other countries outside the US. What I've come to realize is this: what matters to me the most is the consistency of the lowest bar of the experience.
I get that sometimes with human drivers, when I'm lucky, I get someone who goes above and beyond, someone who's fantastic to talk to along the way, and so on.
But if I can trade all that with a guarantee that there's a consistent, predictable floor to my worst experience, I'll take it in a heartbeat.
At the end of it, I take a ride to get from point A to point B. I'd rather have a machine does it for me very efficiently, without all the messy human element, with the ups and the downs, because it's the downs that ruin my day.
Electronic vehicles have made riding in Uber's an almost uniformly nauseating experience (literally). In order of preference I will walk/bike -> public transit -> Waymo -> drive myself -> consider staying at home -> Uber/Lyft
> Electronic vehicles have made riding in Uber's an almost uniformly nauseating experience
I've heard this a lot. Are drivers heavily accelerating and decelerating?
Most drivers are not conscious about rolling the gas or keeping it stable and drive by pulsing it on and off to maintain speed because they don’t have the attention, finesse, or both to drive smoothly. Also rolling on the inputs is not something most do. I used to train drivers for racing and not stabbing the gas or brakes is a learned skill that takes some time. Where a person will likely accelerate for too long having to then brake harder, a Waymo smoothes out the curve, preserving energy, which also means less jerk.
Not to mention that in SF you have the hills that add to the math.
Depends on the driver, but over the years I’ve gotten a decent number who floor it out of every stop sign/light and don’t adequately modulate speed to match the flow of traffic. With how quickly EVs accelerate I could see that making for a less than pleasant ride.
The worst is Revel, which, in NYC, are ALL teslas/EVs. worst taxi experience of my life was a 1 hr drive to airport in stop and go street light traffic. I appreciated the hustle but deleted the app soon after my gag reflex subsided. they should at least disable regenerative braking or something
Yes, although the deceleration seems to be partly due to regenerative braking. They're driving them like normal ICE cars.
In my limited experience, all taxi drivers just do it all the time for time efficiency. They are paid by km most of the time, makes sense.
“Colloquially, there is an idea that autonomous vehicles are something that will erode driver jobs and put drivers at risk. And I think the irony of what we’ve seen is that it’s actually quite expensive to run an AV”
This seems like a temporary problem. Google is charging what the market will bear and doesn’t have ability to get more cars on the road.
The simpler explanation is that Google mismanages its pay-per-use consumer-facing products. Consider Google One and YouTube Premium are also overpriced, and everyone tells them so.
It's obviously a mistake to charge more than Uber or Lyft, it's crazy obvious, like mind meltingly obvious. Sometimes it's just the obvious thing. Google's problem is that its management is so bad, it doesn't understand: just because something happens (paying more for rides) doesn't mean it makes sense. After all taxis are more expensive sometimes, and people pay for them, and where's the article that litigates all the dumb reasons people give for doing that?
"One of the most valuable companies on the planet is mismanaging its products"
see the issue with that assertion?
Google mismanages an enormous number of things. Users, Customers, Products, Teams, Talent. You can observe this in your interactions with Google/Alphabet and in ex-googler post-mortems.
They are amazingly valuable as a stock, as a business and as a collection of talent. That doesn’t entirely excuse failures of vision and leadership, let alone pricing.
Edit: That said, I am inclined to believe that Alphabet pricing likely better reflects reality. The others have some bad habits.
Yeah… on the other hand I don’t let the stock market do all my thinking for me. As an aside, I thought /r/superstonk was a parody subreddit.
As a man I thankfully haven't ever really felt unsafe (in this way anyways, definitely some bad/distracted Uber drivers) but I could see women or kids finding Waymos to be a safer overall experience worth a premium
Recently my daughter and I had to take a Uber home from airport at 11pm. I did not like the driver and I did not like the situation and I seriously was considering exit plans if he started going off the normal route.
The next time I had to take a late Uber I paid up for Uber Premium, which is maybe imperfect reasoning but the driver was pleasant and polite and didn't give any bad vibes.
Please don't attack people like this on Hacker News. It's not what the site is for and it destroys what it is for. Please read the guidelines and make an effort to observe them in future.
my eastern european mind cannot comprehend 2 things:
- if the average price per ride is $20.43 and average price per km is $11.22 does it mean that the average ride length is 1.8km? that seems kinda low..., like that's something I would walk if I didn't hurry..
- if the higher prices are really influenced by costs of operating AV and not simple greed fueled by "offering a better product", how long it's gonna take to be competitive in countries where driver salaries are lower than US? In Bratislava where I'm from the UberX price per km outside surges are lower than 1€ (there's a minimum price per ride of 4.50€ though, but a ride to the airport which is 9km away is 7.41€ now (and that's without the frequent discounts Uber offers, currently I have a 30% discount offered and it would cost me 5.19€ with the discount)...
> does it mean that the average ride length is 1.8km? that seems kinda low..., like that's something I would walk if I didn't hurry..
Idk about the average but I used to make a bad joke that walking is considered an extreme sport in most of the US. Sometimes, it’s for legit reasons such as extreme heat, literally no sidewalks, and areas that are perceived as dangerous because of the people there. Other times it’s just seen as a discomfort ”why walk when you can sit in a large car”. This is reflected in language, where ”walkable” is a frequent term used to describe the often rare parts of urban areas where you can comfortably walk from A to B. In EU there’s often no need for such a term.
> how long it's gonna take to be competitive in countries where driver salaries are lower than US?
Why not share my prediction, it’s probably as bad as the rest of them: I think this stage right now is about viability. Getting training data and real road experience, knowing what sensors are needed, range of road conditions, and grasping the enormous amount of novel traffic situations. I don’t think the purpose of the pricing is to make profits, but rather to test the markets end-to-end. Essentially, it’s an R&D project designed to inform and instill confidence for future investing and scaling.
As for replacing human drivers, I think it’ll be region-by-region with a very long tail. Since cost of labor varies so much, you’d need many years to bring costs of vehicles and maintenance down to be competitive. Plus, expanding to new regions have huge fixed costs and risk, much more so with AVs than normal ”Uber-style” services, with BYO labor & vehicle. These things need service centers, depots, offices, probably quite densely, no? Not to mention the politics, unions etc.
In most of the US it's not really possible/safe to walk between buildings just because of how everything got built. Often it would involve crossing six lane divided highways etc. That's why you see so many threads here talking about bikes/transit/urban design etc.
I do plenty of walking.
I'll take an Uber if I have luggage. If it's raining heavily. If I'm in a hurry because the play is about to start and there's no late seating. If I'm on a date and she's wearing high heels. Etc.
Just because people are sometimes taking Ubers for short distances doesn't mean they're usually taking Ubers for short distances.
Uber isn't a way of life. It's a tool for when you need it.
Say you want to pick up some groceries. In most US cities there is no nearby small market; in some cities there are, but it varies widely. So either you can get takeout, or you can go from 1 (median) to 2.6 (average) miles to a grocery store. You could bike, but most US cities don't have good bike infrastructure (and let's face it, we're lazy). If there is public transit it's slow and unreliable.
Rideshare prices can also be 2x more expensive depending on the city. One city's average price is $7, another's is $17. Some cities are more compact, some are more spread out, some have fewer drivers, some have more, some have a lower cost of living, some higher, some have more suburban drivers, some fewer.
I and a friend visited California, ending in San Diego. We figured out we didn't need the rental car for the last few days, so we asked the hotel clerk how to get back from the car dropoff at the airport. "You could Uber ..." but had no suggestion for an alternative.
We then looked at the map - https://www.brouter.de/brouter-web/#map=15/32.7236/-117.1779... . It was 2km, all on sidewalks. My friend dropped off the car and walked back.
It was lovely SoCal weather, with the sun close to setting over the bay. But the idea of walking it seemed far from at least the clerk's mind.
I believe many of my fellow Americans feel the same. I'm one of the oddballs that would walk 1 1/2 miles home after clubbing rather than drive - something likely only possible for guys as the streets at 1am were empty of anyone walking.
Which also means I've had my share of walks where the sidewalk ended, or where I wasn't legally allowed to go further. That's the American way. /s
This phenomenon is interesting, and a bit surprising. I can kinda see it: while my experiences with Uber & Lyft over the past ~13 years has been overall very positive, there are quite a few minor-seeming-but-adds-up-to-annoying things that can happen with Uber/Lyft that just won't happen with Waymo:
* Driver cancels and you have to wait for a new driver to accept.
* Driver is really chatty and you aren't in the mood, or worse, they want to talk about uncomfortable topics like politics or religion (and even worse, they hold views you find bad). I sometimes (rarely) get drivers who want to complain about something or other, and it's just awkward.
* Car condition is unknown until you get in, and could be bad. There might be unpleasant smells, either from cleaning issues or driver body odor.
* It's hot enough for air conditioning, but the driver instead has windows open to save gas (which is dubious anyway as open windows creates more drag); it's uncomfortable but you feel awkward asking them to close the windows and turn a/c on.
On the other hand, sometimes you do get an awesome driver who enhances the experience beyond what a robotaxi can offer. I'm not the most chatty sort with people I don't know, but I have on occasion had a really fun, positive conversation with an Uber/Lyft driver that I genuinely enjoyed. And in SF at least, Waymo will still not drive on freeways, so if there's a significantly faster freeway route for your trip, Waymo will take more time.
I generally do prefer Waymo over Uber/Lyft, but I'm not willing to pay all that much more for it. One thing to remember is that you should also factor in the tip you'd give the Uber/Lyft driver when making the comparison, since you don't tip a Waymo. Lately I've seen prices like (tip-adjusted) $12 for Uber/Lyft and $25 for Waymo for the same ride, but I'm not willing to pay that much more for Waymo. If Waymo is a few bucks more expensive I'll use it, but not $10. (I also have a 10 points per dollar thing on Lyft rides with my credit card, so I try to remember to take into account a more-or-less 15% discount on the ride, versus the standard 1.5% 1 point per dollar I get with Waymo.)
I would expect it to happen much less often. And each instance of it will likely only be for a single customer's ride, as they'll report the issue in the app, and the car will be taken out of service until it's cleaned.
For an Uber/Lyft driver, if they're even (made) aware of the problem, they'll probably not take care of the issue until they've finished their day of driving.
Yeah I noticed that too, and I paid for the first experience. But also because Lyft guy canceled on me after waiting for 12 minutes. Waymo does not cancel.
I feel like Waymo has discouraged Lyft and Uber drivers from being in the area. I would rather pick an uber driver who can get there fast than a Waymo.
out of sheer curiosity, i took my first (few) waymo rides while in san francisco last month. mind = blown. there is nothing more enjoyable than getting into a vehicle by yourself, no driver, no awkwardness, nothing. i was happy to pay more for a waymo than an uber, too.
I’ve had several questionable uber rides regarding personal safety and would gladly ride with something with a consistent safety track record for a premium. Recently rode with a visibly sick driver that had had a hard time catching his breath long enough to keep his eyes on the road. Automation doesn’t get sick.
Wow, USD 8 to 11 per km.
Hong Kong taxis cost USD 3.5 for the first 2 km, then USD 1.4/km, and less than a dollar per km above USD 13.
https://www.td.gov.hk/en/transport_in_hong_kong/public_trans...
The prices are pretty shocking for me too (Hungary). I don't use taxis much due to the city being pretty walkable, and there being good public transport, but a quick check says that taxis here have a base fare of 3.16 USD, after which it's 1.26 USD per km or 0.32 USD per minute, depending on the billing option (the two are roughly equal around 15 km/h speed).
Another thing that is odd for me is that for all 3 companies in the article, the average trip seems to be less than 2 km. I'm slightly more "walkey" than the average person for sure, but that is a leisurely 15 minute walk, and on the threshold of the distance I would start considering public transport for. With bags to the airport, sure, I'd take a taxi. But I find it hard to believe that the average person is ~2 km from the airport, so the median trip is likely done without extensive luggage at an _even shorter_ distance. I find this kind of absurd.
Call me crazy but I greatly prefer old fashioned taxis, because their drivers know how to step on it and drive like maniacs instead of doddering grandmothers. Sure they stink and have weird accents but why would I care about that when I just want to get home from the airport and get to bed as soon as possible? Accepting cash and not needing some bullshit app is also a huge bonus.
Last Uber driver I took was solving Rubik's cube while driving, so I can see the value in Waymo actually paying attention to the road. On top of that I know what to expect and I can just listen to podcasts or do whatever. One thing that worries me a bit is the camera that's pointed at your phone in the back...
Interesting. Very little about the underlying reasons for this.
Maybe it's driven by curiosity/awe for the new experience? Maybe being alone in the car makes a better ride?
I pay a premium for Waymos.
No need to tip, or even think about whether one should tip. The ride won’t cancel on me, which makes it more reliable. (Waymos are also more consistently clean.) I can take phone calls without worrying about my rider rating. And yeah, they’re more fun because they're novel.
Yeah, I’d happily pay a bit extra just to take tipping out of the equation entirely. Not having to worry about it is enough of a draw on its own. (I’m not a fan of tipping culture to begin with — especially with apps like Uber, where you’re also being rated, which adds even more pressure.)
Now if only Waymo were available in my area…
Ironically, Travis Kalanick felt the exact same way about tipping, and early marketing copy said something like "When you Uber, you never need to tip!" IIRC the drivers finally wore him down and they added a tipping feature shortly before he was forced out. Sad, as the no-tipping thing was one of the things I really liked about Uber when I first used it.
I dislike tipping culture too but the idea that you would pay more so you don't have to tip doesn't make any sense. Additionally you are paying more so you don't have to tip and the thing that enables that is the literal job a human would otherwise have is destroyed.
So bizarre. The levels people will go not to deal with any conflict, no matter how trivial it is...
I get what you're saying, but I think there's a misunderstanding. I would opt for something like Waymo, not because I'm trying to avoid people or conflict, but because I prefer a system where the pricing is clear and all-inclusive.
It's not that I don't want people to be paid. I just believe compensation should be built into the cost upfront, not tacked on afterward through a tipping system that creates unnecessary pressure, especially when ratings are involved.
This isn't about replacing people. It's about preferring a model that's transparent, predictable, and fair without making customers responsible for patching up systemic pay issues.
Everyone has their preferences—this is mine, and I'm comfortable with it.
The tip piece is interesting - that'd close a big chunk of the price gap, if people are tipping 10-20%
> The “consistently clean” part won’t last, that’s just because they’re new.
A fair bit of the unclean part of Ubers/Lyfts comes from the drivers: cigarettes, marijuana, food, perfume, air "fresheners", body odor.
Waymo's have internal cameras that can detect visible uncleanliness.
Easy to report and have accountability (to the previous rider) if there's a significant cleanliness problem (spilled food, vomit).
Next generation Zeekr vehicles (limited by tariffs right now) might be better designed for cleaning: better materials, fewer nooks and crannies, larger door openings.
My only experience with a dirty Waymo was smell. I reported it in app and got a message they recalled it to be cleaned.
I think the fact they can just take a car out of rotation and to the hub which probably has dedicated cleaning staff is a big reason it will last.
Your average uber driver is desperate to work. I’ve seen a driver open his trunk and clean up urine from a drunk female passenger he just dropped off in front of me and then just carry on with our ride like it was no big deal.
Very safe. They obey most traffic rules and don’t do stupid things. I have friends who commute in bike and say they feel safer with Waymo’s on the street. As a pedestrian, I appreciate them since I don’t worry it might run me over when I’m crossing the street.
But it makes sense it being this way, doesn't it? I assume there are way fewer of Waymo taxis and the premium they provide is being able to ride privately at your own company. Also likely is that the riders might be more well off, part of them being tech-savvy, thus also leaning towards willing to ride an autonomous car.
> "Lack of another person in the vehicle" is a feature.
I remember this came up for self-checkout at grocery stores. Personally I mildly prefer not interacting, for one friend this is a huge psychological difference, they are much more able to shop when it doesn't involve trying to talk to a human. It's not impossible anyway but you can see it's a real burden.
If I want to interact with a human there's no reason that should be a financial transaction. I can believe you would get a Waymo to a bar, hang out with friends (or even strangers) and then get a Waymo home, because you wanted the social interactions to be entirely separate from the financial transaction.
"there is an idea that autonomous vehicles are something that will erode driver jobs and put drivers at risk. And I think the irony of what we’ve seen is that it’s actually quite expensive to run an AV, and that that’s not going to be happening, at least in the near term"
Why are they assuming the higher price results from supply rather than demand? Seems like a no brainer that waymo will trounce drivers on price once adequately scaled
Greyball[0] is an interesting solution to a usually intractable problem while freebooting, how to prevent avoidable contact with interested parties, to the degree of identifying and tracking said parties. I’m surprised In-Q-Tel never made an investment, as these kinds of dual-use products and services are in their wheelhouse.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Uber...
I mostly use Uber and find the pricing from my perspective to be random and opaque. The price for a trip may be 3x compared to yesterday, but as long as I don't own car, I'm going to be requesting a ride either way.
Consistently high prices might lead me to get my own car again, I don't know. To me, the main selling point of app A or B isn't minor price differences, it's "will the car actually get here?"
Frequent cancellations, uber drivers accepting the trip, driving around for eons then cancelling.
This is definitely an experience I'd be willing to pay extra to avoid.
I've only used Uber a handfull of times, and all of them at least 7 years ago - nothing recent.
Last time I used it was late at night, I had used an Uber to get Pizza but it was kind of far from my hotel. After eating I used it again to get a ride back. Unfortunately whatever driver it chose for me, decided to just SIT for an hour at their house (or somewhere). And then finally left. It was like 11pm, middle of nowhere and I was freezing cold.
I'd rather choose a Waymo than freeze my ass off. This was an area that had so few drivers (I wasn't from here so I had no idea).
We were in LA 2 weeks ago and got to ride in a Waymo for the first time. We took a few 45min+ trips and would compared prices with Uber each time. Waymo was consistently cheaper, by a lot. $60+ for the Uber quote vs $20-30 for Waymo.
Surprisingly, it appears TechCrunch's analysis regarding price ratios and trip distance is a bit off!
From the article: "This was true of the Uber and Lyft rides, too. But Obi found the shortest Waymo rides were priced 41.48% and 31.12% higher than Uber and Lyft, respectively. That gap shrunk as the rides got longer. In rides lasting between 4.3 km and 9.3 km, a Lyft cost $2.60 per km, an Uber cost $2.90 per km, and a Waymo cost $3.50 per km."
Relative increase in cost of Waymo vs. Lyft by trip-distance (inferred from the article's chart):
0.1 - 1.4km: 40%
1.4 - 2.2km: 45%
2.2 - 2.9km: 46%
2.9 - 4.3km: 39%
4.3 - 9.3km: 35%
That seems like pretty minor fluctuation and even then it doesn't entirely fit the pattern TechCrunch described.
I think my autonomavertigo would prevent me from ever taking a Waymo.
Autonomavertigo (noun):
The disorienting fear or anxiety experienced when surrendering control to autonomous systems, especially self-driving vehicles. Often accompanied by phantom brake-pumping and suspicious glances at the dashboard.
There's none of this in a Waymo, and the phantom braking is reduced but still present in FSD Teslas... and yes, it's anger-inducing.
This is as much about Uber/Lyft, as it is about the (nonexistent) level of politeness in the vest (US+Europe).
Have you ever taken a Uber in Japan? The driver will make him/herself invisible. The space in the car is, factually, your space. No phone conversations on their part, no music, no odours.
Waymo won't thrive in Japan, because it offers nothing extra advantages to regular Uber.
We suck in the west in terms of customer friendliness.
> Have you ever taken a Uber in Japan?
You're being snarky but it's obvious you're speaking from the prospective of a foreign tourist who has only been to Tokyo and major cities while not being able to speak Japanese.
You're making a strong but false generalisations as a tourist. The tourist aspect is important because of the anthropic principle. If you were a local who was in the inaka where Uber doesn't operate and you had to reserve a taxi by phone in Japanese, you'd have an entirely different experience.
Japanese people are notoriously introverted and shy. That's why people don't make small talk especially on a taxi. Plus, if they presume you're a tourist who doesn't speak Japanese, why bother? It's also not true that it's "your space". Just because the driver and other service people aren't confronting you on your behavior doesn't mean it's socially approved behavior. Japanese people silently judged and tourists can't even notice. There is an unspoken rule you keep your conversation with your fellow passenger private and quiet. Even wearing a perfume/cologne in a communal space, which a taxi is, can be considered rude.
If the reason people prefer Waymo is because they're introverted and not just avoid socializing but avoid being the presence of other people alltogether, then it's entirely possible for Waymo to do okay in Japan.
> The space in the car is, factually, your space.
This such an arrogant Westerner thing to think and say. Until you can step out of that, you will never understand Japan like you think you do.
So you are saying that as a Japanese ordering a Japanese by phone, that your driver would: - happily speak on the phone while driving - listen to music - open the window to cool himself without asking if you're OK with that?
(i.e. all the things drivers in the best do; also, when I said that the space in a taxi is factually the clients space I didn't imply that the client can do whatever he wants - rather that the client can enjoy that space undisturbed; you only zoned in on the part of the client creating disturbance, which I can see though is an issue with tourists in Japan.)
I find that hard to believe. But open to be proven otherwise if you can cite such occurrences.
My other point that we in the west suck still seems to hold true: even if your point is true and I may get better treatment in Japan only as a tourist in a big city, you can rest assured that no Japanese in a western big city will get any kind of better treatment. Drivers in the west are usually impolite equally to everyone.
Contrapositive is the logistically consistent statement, and that does not involve intruding in others’ space (depending on one’s definition of intrude, I guess).
The new age version of cabs are over fit, people take them for many things they don't need. Me included; I no longer ask my siblings/friends/spouse to take me to the airport, I just order a lyft/uber where as I wasn't doing that with cabs 10 years ago.
People are catching on to that reality but at least WayMo offers something novel.
Simply not playing Uber’s bait-and-switch game (happened again just yesterday: A purported $40 ride ended up being $80 due to being “unexpectedly 3x the planned distance”) would get them my business immediately once they become available in NYC for the very few times I do take a car.
Not marking up rides when there’s a gift balance on the account would also be a great distinguishing feature.
I managed to get a Waymo after a big event at Intuit Dome. It found a reasonable place to pick me up a couple blocks away. I didn’t have to try calling the driver to get them to figure out where I should go to try and get around roadblocks and traffic (I had no idea about the area). It didn’t cancel on me. It didn’t hit me with a surge price. So I don’t even buy the central premise by the article that Waymo is guaranteed to be more expensive.
And I didnt have to worry about a Waymo being unavailable late in the evening, or canceling my ride because it didn’t want to go that far at night. It just worked. Why would I ever take anything else?
There was a while, early on, where (at least in the areas I used it) the modal Uber driver was a college student or a (semi-)retired person looking for something to do. Generally polite, fluent in English, upwardly mobile or already successful. Cars were higher quality and cleaner than taxis.
Now, the modal Uber driver seems to be relatively rude, cannot speak English well, seems financially desperate, and drives a dirty/crappy car. Even if I pay extra for "comfort" I often get a pretty junky car. It's basically as bad as a taxi.
When the human element is a substantial net negative on the whole experience, I'll pay extra to avoid the human element.
The driving is much more comfortable than Uber or Lyft. Taking them through San Francisco I find they gentler on hills, accelerate and break more mildly, and don’t try to drop you in unsafe places.
They’re just better drivers than people and that comfort is worth the up charge.
The novelty aside (I don’t live in a service region for Waymo, so I can only try it if I fly out to SFO for work), I will happily pay a premium to have a consistent experience where I don’t have to potentially deal with an obnoxious driver. That sounds misanthropic, I know, but for every good experience I’ve had where the car was clean and the driver was either silent, or interesting to talk to, I’ve had five others where that was not the case.
There was some report in the New York Times while back that indicated that these companies staff a remote operator for every three of these cars, or something close to that, so the idea that they’re fully automated is a pretense, and the price needs to make up for the cost of remote assistance
I haven't read all the comments and I'm sure someone else made a similar point, but my first thought was the flip the direction of the statement: "Waymo rides cost more than Uber or Lyft /because/ people are willing to pay more".
I admit I did not go further than the title, because I assume the conclusion is in the title.
Waymo is considerably cheaper in LA (at least in a region) than Uber. I have no clue about Lyft. I know this for a fact, because someone I know has taken Waymos and Ubers between the two identical points, around the same time of day, multiple times, and Waymo has always been way cheaper, considerably so.
The novelty of Waymo, as well as not having to interact with a stranger (especially for women, my wife used Waymo and liked it) makes Waymo a compelling option.
It might be more expensive now because it is novel, but over time, as it commoditizes and more competition enters, prices will likely go down.
Also, this is how the free market works. The actual users decide what something is worth based on using their wallets. Is it more valuable to have solitude and your own space in the car? Or better to have human interaction? The market will decide.
This doesn’t surprise me and I’m not sure it’s about people not wanting to interact with people or whatever - many of the Ubers I’ve got while in SF have been pretty grim (unclean, weird odors, ancient badly serviced car etc) and badly driven. I’ve not noticed this being such an issue in the UK/Europe but that might just be because I take Ubers much more rarely there (with more prevalent public transit etc).
I’d definitely pay more for a Waymo, which is a much more reliably pleasant (and very cool!) experience.
This bodes well for Tesla. After their product is fully ready and released, regardless if it takes 5 years, with any sense it's going to be the cheapest, will reach anywhere (no requirement for mapping, can reliably calculate to the limit of its range), AND have the privacy benefits of a self driving cab.
There's still a "wow factor" associated with this. I live in a city that doesn't have Waymo. I recently had a work trip to a city that does. Waymo was 25% more expensive than Uber (~15 vs ~20). I still took Waymo because I don't get to experience it often, so it's fun to be in a driverless car. If I had constant access to Waymo, I would have probably chosen the cheapest option.
Is it just a matter of Waymo being tourist attraction? Last time when I was in LA my friends and me, we had a rental car to go around, but we still took couple of Waymo rides just for fun. With enough demand from people who have "autonomous car ride" on their bucket list the price can be much higher, as Uber/Lyft are not really competing in the same category.
Uber is increasingly annoying where it will delay putting in an order for a ride and then try to upsell you. As in upgrade to Uber plus or black to get a faster time. If there is a concert or game and big demand spike I get it. But it’s doing it on almost every ride in SF. Upsell nags are annoying but seemingly extending my trip time to upsell is unforgivable.
I've had the opposite experience recently.
Going from downtown Los Angeles to Santa Monica is $30s for a Waymo and runs up to $50s for Uber/Lyft (sometimes). Otherwise, they tend to be within a few dollars.
I figured it was a combination of Google subsidizing rides and a lack of a "traffic tax".
They're a significantly better experience for 45+ minute rides.
This would change if there wasn’t a culture of giving 5 stars to every driver. It started because Uber unfairly punished good drivers for very good but honest 4/5 reviews, and now every Uber driver who uses their phone while driving or has an interior smelling of cigarette smoke gets 5 stars out of obligation.
Unfortunately in Austin, Waymo have screwed the pooch by making their service only available through Uber, with no way of saying you only want Waymo instead of a human driver. I used an Uber the other day out of necessity, and the driver smelled so bad I had to stop the ride and get out.
Hehe, missed a chance to write a cheap pun on that headline.
"Waymo rides cost waymo than Uber or Lyft and people are paying anyway"
Uber and Lyft’s cheapest fare options are far from what they used to be. Want a timely pickup? Gotta pay for priority. Want a car that isn’t 10 years old and smelly? Pay extra. Don’t want a sketchy driver smelling of weed? Pay extra. The list goes on. Waymo however at least you know you get a clean and safe car.
why is it surprising that Waymo costs more, and people pay anyway? Waymo is prioritizing safety over all things and is in gradual roll out mode.
The easiest way to contain demand is to raise prices.
and...what's not to love about riding in the future for a few bucks more?
Uber barely operates in huge swaths of the US. I've been in parts of Idaho and Kansas where wait times during the day can be a half an hour and after a certain hour no drivers are available at all. And the drivers who operate in these areas tend to be far less experienced/professional than in denser areas (to put it politely). Waymo solves all of this with just a handful of cars in each county.
Who wouldn't pay more to not have to interact with an unknown human?
Replacing 100% of cars with self-driving taxis are definitely the future. In this context:
Corporate owned for-profit self-driving cars are the mark of a dystopian.
Publicly-owned or non-profit self-driving cars are the mark of a utopia.
I'm not sure I see why. If hailing a publicly-operated waymo equivalent is as convenient as going to the DMV or making a withdrawal from a treasury direct account, I don't think anyone is ever going to use it. From my perspective, waymo is the private sector solving a problem that was largely created by the government (zoning → lack of density → needing to drive everywhere).
Obviously the opposite. Competition keeps prices low and quality high.
"Publicly-owned" would be expensive and low quality, and would make the people running the operation filthy rich. Non-profit would mean that whoever is running it would increase their salaries until there's no profit. There would be no reason to lower prices or increase quality, if competition is non-existent.
> "Publicly-owned" would be expensive and low quality, and would make the people running the operation filthy rich.
By publicly owned, I mean “owned by the public”, not “owned by a publicly traded company” (which is, ironically, private property). You’re thinking the latter, which counts as corporate-owned.
I used a bad choice of words. In most of the world “public owned” means the former, whereas in the US it means the latter. The exact opposite, ironically.
No, I really did mean "owned by the public". Which means that the company is actually 100% owned by the state and they would have a monopoly, assuming that you'd want to ban commercial operators. This is the usual interpretation of "public ownership".
This would be extremely bad compared to a situation where there's a dozen of companies competing in the same market.
just read this before so I can see why
https://old.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/1lbn0fs/is_it_no...
if products cost more than other products in a similar domain and people are paying anyway I would naturally assume the more expensive products are a luxury brand, and given some of the other comments here I'd think my assumption borne out.
Surprise. I’m happy to pay Apple tax in return for ease of use and cancellation
Oh Wow, I wonder if this experiment would yield similar results outside San Francisco, hmmm?
I would pay the extra since there's no driver to talk to me.
We need Waymo busses, either directly operated, or licensing the technology.
If you pay more now you just proved to Waymo they can charge even more later. Way to go. Once they corner the market it will cost even more than uber/lyft/taxi today.
How many of you have used ZipCars or an equivalent? I guarantee you Waymo cars will look worse than the average Uber/Lyft once they stop fluffing up the experience.
tried to take a waymo today in LA: https://i.imgur.com/ufoDjue.png
> I was under the impression they use Chrysler minvans
They used to, but retired them May 1, 2023: https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/13559409
That's what all the Waymo's look like.
They did some testing in Chrysler minivans, now they're testing in BYD vehicles.
But the rides are in those Jaguars (ya know, the ones burning in LA).
> now they're testing in BYD vehicles
I hadn't heard that. Did you mean Geely Zeekr?
https://waymo.com/blog/2021/12/expanding-our-waymo-one-fleet...
Hmm. That’s the vehicle I saw in SF but when I looked it up I thought I read BYD. But maybe I got that totally wrong.
EDIT: Yes you’re def right. I looked around a little more and there’s no support for my BYD memory. Geely it is.
I mean, if you’ve ever set foot in a Hyundai Ioniq 5/6, they’re better than any of the alternatives from American brands.
I'm sure they are, but I meant that if you were to take a Lyft or Uber, you would just get someone's random car that is often a Hyundai Elantra or Accent in my experience and not necessarily perfectly clean etc vs riding in a corporate maintained fleet of Jaguars.
How much of this is just new entrant, unprofitable disruption & pre-enshitification?
Like the first 5-10 years of zipcar…
I am happy that Waymo is making money. Google would kill it, if it could not make money.
idk, google has a nice list of things that seem like they'll never be profitable, but it keeps running em. Like, google patents, google books, google translate... none of those make money, right? Chromium only makes money indirectly I think, and they invest a ton of engineering resources in that.
Google kills stuff, but they don't kill everything, just stuff that no one is working on (like google reader, I think all the people who cared about the code just quit), or stuff that is specifically counter to some exec's strategy (like killing a bunch of chat software to centralize on Google+ or whatever it is now)
I don't think it's profitable yet. The capex for Waymo is massive.
I just realized why I'd pay premium for Waymo. Sometimes rideshare drivers refuse to pick up my fare, or get lost, or cancel a trip halfway to me. A robot car (one would hope) wouldn't do those things. Get rid of the human bullshit? Take my money.
Ride share grifts (Uber, Lyft) extract wealth from drivers. Morally equiv to MLMs, value added resellers, platforms (Amazon, Spotify, Meta, etc).
It feels icky being an accomplice.
Less importantly, I now despise the degradation of driving etiquette and overall safety. At least as much as I despised taxis. eg don't block traffic loading / unloading; there's a loading zone RIGHT THERE, ffs.
The real pain with Waymo is that they just aren't as reliably available in a short period, especially at high demand times. Uber can incentivize bringing on extra drivers at certain times - Waymo can't. Unless they size the fleet for high demand peaks - which would be incredibly cost prohibitive, I don't see how they solve this except maybe a hybrid model or they distill their "waymo driver" into something that runs on a standard economy car.
This doesn't surprise me at all. I work in the EU but recently the Americans we hire are very hesitant to have conversations with service providers. They will pay more to use a service that has an app, rather than call up another taxi company by phone for example (and it's not a language barrier problem, because everyone speaks english). I can see this extending to not wanting to have a driver in their taxi.
I see this with UK people recently too. I'm not sure what it is. I'm not saying it's not an EU thing at all, but from my vantage point, the behavior is most prevalent in Americans
Edit: After reading this thread, it's possible this could be sampling bias and more of a cross-country generational thing from mellennials down. (I am a mellennial too)