Animats 4 hours ago

The US is falling way behind in electric vehicles. If BYD could sell in the US, the US auto industry would be crushed.[1]

What went wrong is that 1) Tesla never made a low-end vehicle, despite announcements, and 2) all the other US manufacturers treated electric as a premium product, resulting in the overpowered electric Hummer 2 and F-150 pickups with high price tags. The only US electric vehicle with comparable prices in electric and gasoline versions is the Ford Transit.

BYD says that their strategy for now is to dominate in every country that does not have its own auto industry. Worry about the left-behind countries later.

BYD did it by 1) getting lithium-iron batteries to be cheaper, safer, and faster-charging, although heavier than lithium-ion, 2) integrating rear wheels, differential, axle, and motor into an "e-axle" unit that's the entire mechanical part of the power train, and 3) building really big auto plants in China.

Next step is to get solid state batteries into volume production, and build a new factory bigger than San Francisco.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_BYD_Auto_vehicles

  • IceHegel 2 hours ago

    I think one of the biggest problems in the United States is the misallocation of ambitious people. The highly educated and ambitious people see finance, government, tech, and corporate executive tracks, as the way to convert their energies into social status.

    Even startups these days seem to be a case of too many chiefs, not enough Indians.

    • jmpman an hour ago

      When Elon gets excited about displacing his engineers on a whim with H1Bs, why would any highly educated ambitious person want to work for Tesla?

  • londons_explore 22 minutes ago

    > dominate in every country that does not have its own auto industry.

    That's because they plan to have a small number of huge factories to keep costs down.

    But that means they need cheap ships, and can only sell to places with no car tariffs - which tends to be the countries without an auto industry.

  • DidYaWipe 2 hours ago

    What went wrong is that the federal government didn't build or legislate a national charging infrastructure to match the scale of the interstate highway system.

    They could have strong-armed the states into it with a combination of funding the construction and the way they mandated the 21 drinking age: by threatening to withhold highway funds.

    • voidfunc an hour ago

      > They could have strong-armed the states into it with a combination of funding the construction and the way they mandated the 21 drinking age: by threatening to withhold highway funds.

      Yea let's give the federal government more power. That's going so well right now.

    • atoav 2 hours ago

      Isn't this lack of forward thinking somewhat the general problem now?

      From an EU perspective the world as it has existed in the living memory is a world shaped by decisive US-actions. The way EVs have been approached were anything but that. Arguably neither did Germany, because of the way their politicians are entangled with the car manufacturers.

      • bgnn 24 minutes ago

        Germany actively hampered it by promoting diesel as THE greeen fuel.

  • sebmellen 4 hours ago

    The Chevy Spark EV is an incredible vehicle and has been my around town go kart for the past 7 years. Cost me $11k (!!) as an off lease purchase.

    • joshjob42 an hour ago

      I adored my Spark EV til it sadly died (fairly scarily, on a highway access road) one day. Chevy was never able to repair it and ultimately gave me a nice payout after paying for a rental for me for nearly a year.

      But if you sold the Spark EV for 20k today with like 120mi of range, it would be perfect and would satisfy all my needs 99% of the time. Even mine (13k all in) was great here in LA with ~60mi of range. I loved how small and easy to park it was without feeling cramped to me at all. If it had CarPlay I'd've said it was the perfect car haha.

      It's a shame they haven't rebooted it yet as a pure EV. It's right there in the name!

  • Panzer04 2 hours ago

    I don't really see how any car company can "fall behind" in EV.

    Fundamentally, IMO, EVs are such a simple concept mechanically that any company capable of building a conventional ICE vehicle can build an EV.

    It's glib to say that - obviously there's a lot of unsaid complexity (battery back cooling, fitting into the frame, and so on), but the actual drivetrain component is just so simple. That EVs are still expensive is to me a sign that production hasn't ramped up yet. So long as production is limited EVs will remain a luxury product - but I can't imagine that's going to continue for all that much longer with an increasing backlog of used EVs on the market and decreasing battery prices.

    • derektank an hour ago

      Even if there were no improvements to be had in the vehicle itself, improvements in manufacturing processes determine how expensive the product is and thus how competitively priced the vehicle can be. Falling behind on price means falling behind on market share which means falling behind on efficiencies of scale which often means going out of business or at best becoming a niche producer.

      Honda and Toyota weren't able to outcompete US manufacturers in the 1980s by offering higher performance vehicles but by delivering similar quality products at lower prices by making use of superior production techniques like Lean and JIT inventory management.

    • constantcrying 31 minutes ago

      Are you serious? EVs have been the biggest disruption in the auto industry. It has created major corporations who made the attempts of traditional manufacturers seem obsolete.

      VW Group and Stellantis totally failed to compete with Chinese manufacturers and were driven out of the Chinese EV market almost entirely. Competition is extremely fierce.

      >That EVs are still expensive

      Look up what they cost in China.

      >So long as production is limited EVs will remain a luxury product

      Around 50% of new sales in China. Not "luxury" in any meaningful way.

      The issue is that EVs do not differentiate themselves by power train. They differentiate themselves by battery and software.

  • caseyf7 4 hours ago

    BYD buses are operating in the US.

  • loufe 3 hours ago

    Did you mean to say sodium batteries instead of lithium in your "BYD did it" sentence?

    • Animats 2 hours ago

      No. Five years ago BYD introduced their "blade battery", which is a lithium iron phosphate battery built up of plate-like "blades" in rectangular casings.[1] Wh/L is about the same as lithium ion, Wh/Kg is not as good, and Wh/$ is better. It will survive the "nail test" and does not not go into thermal runaway.

      Today, most of BYD's products use this technology. It's been improved to handle higher charging rates. Seems to work fine. Lithium-ion has better Wh/Kg, and it's still used in some high-end cars, mostly Teslas. BYD's approach has captured the low and medium priced markets.

      BYD has announced that they plan first shipments of cars with solid state batteries (higher Wh/Kg) in 2027. Price will be high at first, and they will first appear in BYD's high-end cars. Like these.[3] BYD has the Yangwang U8, a big off-road SUV comparable to the Rivian, and the Yangwang U9, a "hypercar". Just to show that they can make them, probably.

      [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIt5z4wT9RE

      [2] https://electrek.co/2025/02/17/byd-confirms-evs-all-solid-st...

      [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHWXx1KsvVY

      • JimBlackwood an hour ago

        > Like these.[3] BYD has the Yangwang U8, a big off-road SUV comparable to the Rivian, and the Yangwang U9, a "hypercar".

        I really did not expect to open this and have it be presented by Kryten! Fun surprise! :)

aidenn0 16 hours ago

For anyone curious, if you made a similarly sized gas-powered pickup with an i4 engine, it would be penalized more than a full-sized pickup for being too fuel inefficient, despite likely getting much better mileage than an F-150 because, since 2011, bigger cars are held to a lesser standard by CAFE[1].

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy...

  • zx10rse 11 hours ago

    Automotive industry is one of the biggest scams on planet earth. One of my favorite cases recently is how Suzuki Jimny is banned in Europe and US because of emission standards allegedly, so the little Jimny is emitting 146g/km but somehow there is no problem to buy a G-Class that is emitting 358g/km oh and surprise surprise Mercedes are going to release a smaller more affordable G-Class [1].

    [1] - https://www.motortrend.com/news/2026-mercedes-benz-baby-g-wa...

    • mft_ 10 hours ago

      Manufacturers must hit a level of CO2 emissions on average across their whole fleet. As such, Suzuki is choosing to discontinue the Jimny because of the tougher fleet average targets starting in 2025. Overall you’re right that it’s a bit of a fix; Mercedes ‘pools’ its emissions with other manufacturers/brands. It currently pools with Smart, but may also pool with Volvo/Polestar? [0] It’s such an obvious approach to ‘game’ the targets, it’s a wonder the EU didn’t see it coming when they introduced the scheme. [0] https://www.schmidtmatthias.de/post/mercedes-benz-intends-to...

      • throw10920 5 hours ago

        This is why its so important to be super careful with how you write regulation - because even if the intent was good, it's so hard to both anticipate unintended second- and third-order effects, and it's so difficult to update after you've pushed to production.

        Just like code, regulation isn't intrinsically valuable - it's a means to an end, and piling lots of poorly-written stuff on top of each other has disasterous consequences for society. We have to make sure that the code and law that we write is carefully thought out and crafted to achieve its desired effect with minimal complexity, and formally verify and test it when possible.

        (an example of testing law may be to get a few clever people into a room and red-team possible exploits in the proposed bill or regulation)

        • motorest 4 hours ago

          > This is why its so important to be super careful with how you write regulation - because even if the intent was good, it's so hard to both anticipate unintended second- and third-order effects, and it's so difficult to update after you've pushed to production.

          It seems that the goal is to pressure automakers to improve the efficiency across their entire line instead of simply banning low-efficiency models altogether.

          If an automaker discontinues a low-efficient model in order to have access to a market, isn't this an example of regulation working well?

      • tonmoy 6 hours ago

        I don’t see the issue in that though. If the target was to keep the average emission down across the entire country and if inefficient brand A decided to merge with efficient brand B to keep the average down that seems like it still adheres to the spirit of the law

      • cenamus an hour ago

        A last effort to extend the many favors granted to the dying german auto industry

      • kranke155 7 hours ago

        They likely saw it coming… and deliberately did it this way.

        All local industry distorts their relevant politics. There’s lobbyists in the EU too.

        The EU economy has a lot of car manufacturing, so cars are probably a big deal in Brussels.

      • jimbob45 9 hours ago

        Is that weighted for individual car popularity? Because couldn’t you put three push cars in your lineup that you don’t realistically expect to sell and be fine?

        • rv3392 7 hours ago

          AFAIK the average emissions are based on cars that were actually sold. So yeah, it's weighted for popularity in a way.

    • mjrpes 9 hours ago

      I wonder if that's why Ford, Ram, and Nissan all at the same time decide to discontinue their mini cargo vans a year ago.

      • throwawaymaths 7 hours ago

        If you're talking about the ford transit (I'm just guessing) but maybe the tariff rules changed? IIUC The transit was shipped to the US from europe as a "bus" because it was configured with car seats on board and then they would strip the seats and ship them back to europe. Buses are exempt from tariffs otherwise municipal public transit would be even more in the drink.

        • mjrpes 6 hours ago

          This is the Ford Transit Connect. They're known as mini cargo vans and popular with trades and for city driving because they're slightly smaller than a mini van. The equivalent to the Transit Connect was the Ram ProMaster City and Nissan NV200. They all were discontinued within two years of each other.

    • DidYaWipe 2 hours ago

      The Jimny is my favorite example of a cool little vehicle that would address a glaring hole in the U.S. market.

      The situation here is pathetic. We can't have truly small trucks or sport-utes because of obviously incompetent or corrupt regulations.

    • leephillips 10 hours ago

      The Jimny or similar Suzuki models would not be offered for sale in the U.S. because it’s basically the latest iteration of the Samuri, which died there after Consumer Reports falsely claimed that it was dangerously prone to rollover.

      • kranner 7 hours ago

        The Samuri, sold in India as the Gypsy and used extensively by Indian police, did rollover alarmingly often until the 1993 model when the track width was increased by 90mm.

      • pelagic_sky 9 hours ago

        I had rented a barebones Jimny last month when I was in Auckland for the week. Not saying it was prone to roll. But holy hell was it feeling like I could roll that bad boy on some curvy gravel roads. I also loved it.

      • DidYaWipe 2 hours ago

        I don't recognize it as being a Samurai descendent.

        Related note: I just saw a Suzuki Sidekick on the road in L.A., in Geo Tracker trim... a rare sight nowadays. It sounded like shit, but with a robust platform a vehicle like that would be just what the U.S. market lacks: a burly SMALL sport-ute.

  • MostlyStable 15 hours ago

    Example #5621 that a simple carbon tax would be miles better than the complex morass of regulations we currently have.

    • aidenn0 15 hours ago

      That's overly reductive.

      1. Poorer people tend to drive older vehicles, so if you solely encourage higher fuel economies by taxing carbon emissions, then the tax is (at least short-term) regressive.

      2. You can work around #1 by applying incentives for manufacturers to make more efficient cars should lead any carbon tax

      3. If you just reward companies based on fleet-average fuel economy without regard to vehicle size, then it would be rather bad for US car companies (who employ unionized workers) that historically make larger cars than Asian and European companies.

      4. So the first thing done was to have a separate standard for passenger vehicles and light-trucks, but this resulted in minivans and SUVs being made in such a way as to get the light-truck rating

      5. We then ended up with the size-based calculation we have today, but the formula is (IMO) overly punitive on small vehicles. Given that the formula was forward looking, it was almost certain to be wrong in one direction or the other, but it hasn't been updated.

      • MostlyStable 15 hours ago

        All carbon tax is inherently regressive but that's also trivially fixable. Make it revenue neutral and give every citizen a flat portion of the total collected revenue. Bam, it is now progressive, since on average richer people will spend more on fuel (and therefore the tax) even though it is likely a much smaller percentage of their spending.

        Every single one of your ideas has problems that are solved by a carbon tax. Taxes are simple, they accomplish what you want, and they don't have loopholes. A carbon tax will _never_ have the unintended consequence of making emissions worse. Many of our current regulations, including the one I was responding to do exactly that because they actually cause people to buy larger trucks than they otherwise would with worse fuel efficiency.

        A carbon tax might not on it's own be enough to solve the problem (especially if you set it to low), but no matter what level you set it, it will help. Thanks to unintended consequences, many of our current regulations are actively counter productive, while _also_ having negative economic and other costs.

      • danans 15 hours ago

        > 1. Poorer people tend to drive older vehicles, so if you solely encourage higher fuel economies by taxing carbon emissions, then the tax is (at least short-term) regressive.

        You give it back to poor as a income-phased out refundable tax credit. Crucially, base it not on how much they drive or consume, but on their income.

        Name it something like the "Worker's Energy Credit". In the worst case, it cancels out the carbon tax spent by them commensurate with their lower income.

        In the best case poor people who don't drive much actually come out ahead, and it's just a very progressive sales tax.

        The rich might hate it, and call it "redistribution", which is fine because that's exactly what it is, and what taxes have always been, but this one would redistribute downwards instead of upwards, and incentivize lower carbon emissions by those who can afford it.

      • breakyerself 15 hours ago

        Carbon taxes become progressive with the simple step of returning the revenue to taxpayers as a dividend payment using the existing social security payment infrastructure. Richer people have such outsized carbon footprints that most people would get back more in dividends than they lost in higher costs.

      • bflesch 15 hours ago

        Meanwhile jet fuel for private jets is (and remains) not taxed at all, even in the EU.

      • morepedantic 4 hours ago

        TIL poor people can't pollute, so their market segment shouldn't be incentivized to cut pollution.

        TIL that US car companies won't make smaller cars in the face of different regulations, even though they made larger cars in response to current regulations.

        The only way to avoid perversions is to tax the problem directly. The market will adjust to all proxies in unintended and harmful ways.

        • parineum 3 hours ago

          A disincentive on a thing you don't want makes people choose another thing that you may or may not want.

          The only way to avoid perversions is to incentivize the things you want.

          Taxing cigarettes led to vaping. Maybe less bad but still a nuisance.

      • xvokcarts 13 hours ago

        Looks like as long as only positive change is allowed to touch the poor, there will be little change.

        • austhrow743 11 hours ago

          Going to let us burn because not doing so would be regressive.

      • AdrianB1 12 hours ago

        If you want to reduce carbon emissions, if the tax is regressive or not does not matter as long as you tax emissions. If you want to mix too many things, you will not get a good solution for any.

      • bongodongobob 14 hours ago

        Are you saying used car sales would have a carbon tax? I've never heard anyone suggest anything like that. It's just a tax on new items.

      • nullc 11 hours ago

        > 1. Poorer people tend to drive older vehicles, so if you solely encourage higher fuel economies by taxing carbon emissions, then the tax is (at least short-term) regressive.

        The idea that policy makers care about this in any meaningful sense is absurd given the EV mandates, as EV's radically change the lifecycle costs of cars in a way that is absolutely destructive to people who aren't wealthy.

        EV's lower the 'fueling' cost but shift part of it into large cashflow crushing battery replacement costs.

        Automobiles have been a significant engine in elevating less wealthy americans because you can buy a old junky car for very little and keep it limping along with use-proportional fuel costs and minor maintenance. Even if it's an inefficient car, you use it to go to work, so you're making money to pay for the fuel. Less work, less work fuel required.

        EV's significantly break the model and will push many more less wealthy people onto predatory financing which they'll never escape. Yet policy makers refuse to even discuss the life-cycle cashflow difference of EVs, and continue to more forward with policies to eventually mandate their use.

        > it was almost certain to be wrong in one direction or the other, but it hasn't been updated.

        It's been broken all along. We've had decades to fix it.

      • renewiltord 6 hours ago

        Yeah that’s the truth. The mass of poor people are the predominant polluters. They produce little of value and pollute a lot. So the question then is whether you care about the environment or about the poor and most people would rather the latter.

    • ponector 12 hours ago

      I think the best way is to tax fuel itself. This way worse mpg result in more tax.

      Tax diesel more than gasoline, LNG less.

      • michpoch 12 hours ago

        This is already done, in Europe most of the fuel costs are taxes.

      • nandomrumber 10 hours ago

        Thereby penalising existing vehicle owners who can’t switch to a more efficient vehicle overnight.

        We have to come up with a rigorous alternative that doesn’t disproportionately affect lower income folk, because people tend not to be overly concerned about nebulous concepts like the climate impacts on unborn future generations, especially when my carbon impact at the margin is negligible when taken in context of global population.

      • ChadNauseam 12 hours ago

        That makes sense, but there would be no incentive to switch to an engine that emits less carbon for the same fuel consumption (if such a thing exists)

      • DrillShopper 11 hours ago

        We already do in the US (but the money mostly goes to road maintenance)

      • 2OEH8eoCRo0 10 hours ago

        Isn't that what a carbon tax is? Adding a tax to the fossil fuel based on carbon content.

    • rcpt 14 hours ago

      The purpose of the CAFE regulations is very explicitly to favor American automakers who make big trucks.

      • tlb 11 hours ago

        It wasn't the intended purpose. It turned out that way because the Detroit lobbyists were smarter and more motivated than the government policy people, and they bamboozled them.

        • smallmancontrov 11 hours ago

          The congress critters knew what they were doing and didn't do it for free.

      • aidenn0 10 hours ago

        That was one of several purposes.

    • conductr 11 hours ago

      This has been a known problem and could be changed if the political will to make common sense policy changes and corrections when needed was anywhere near existing. Unfortunately, we live in a [political] dystopia

    • JumpCrisscross 10 hours ago

      > a simple carbon tax would be miles better than the complex morass of regulations we currently have

      Doesn't this just punt the morass into the magic variable of one's carbon footprint?

      How about this: fleet efficiency standards are stupid, anachronistic and counterproductive. Scrap them. Then, separarately, create a consumer-side rebate based on a vehicle's mileage. (Because a gas tax breaks American brains.)

      • SecretDreams 9 hours ago

        > How about this: fleet efficiency standards are stupid, anachronistic and counterproductive. Scrap them. Then, separarately, create a consumer-side rebate based on a vehicle's mileage. (Because a gas tax breaks American brains.)

        It's a good concept that is also ripe for abuse with anyone who has some amount of "fuck your rules" money. Same reason why fines that don't scale with income/earnings in some form often do nothing to deter "the rich".

        I certainly like carrots more than sticks, but we need a couple of sticks as well.

        • morepedantic 4 hours ago

          Scaling fines with income only works to hard stop behavior, at which point just make it illegal. Most fines are proportional to damages.

          Criminalizing fossil fuels is insane. The fines should cover the externalities.

    • bgnn 13 hours ago

      why can't we just tax the gas at the pump? this is, at least, what I'm used to in Europe.

      • brianwawok 13 hours ago

        We do. But it’s a super regressive tax. Lots of very poor people depend on a bad MPG car to get to work and live.

    • guywithahat 12 hours ago

      I don’t think it would be possible to produce a carbon tax that’s simple

      • patmcc 12 hours ago

        Tax the fuel. Gasoline now has a $X/gallon tax, as does propane, as does coal, whatever.

        What is the difficulty with that?

    • [removed] 15 hours ago
      [deleted]
    • osigurdson 8 hours ago

      If interested in a case study, have a look at Canada's experiment with it.

    • timewizard 14 hours ago

      Fuel is already taxed. What would a "carbon tax" add here?

  • darth_avocado 10 hours ago

    And what you’re describing is exactly the reason Kei trucks aren’t a thing despite most farmers actually liking them for their utility.

    You can’t import them unless they are old because we want to protect the automotive industry. But we can’t build them new either because they don’t meet the safety standards (FMVSS) and are penalized more for being fuel efficient because the standards are stricter for smaller vehicles.

    • ganoushoreilly 10 hours ago

      To be fair, kei trucks are horrible in crashes too. That’s a big part of states starting to ban them.

      • proggy 4 hours ago

        They’re horrible in crashes in the North American region. That’s because the average vehicle size in North America is much, much bigger than the vehicles in the Kei trucks’ region of origin. And streets in North America are, on average, much, much wider and permit higher speed traffic than those in Japan. The cars themselves aren’t inherently unsafe; if you keep them mostly on private property and only take them out on low-speed public roads with light duty vehicles, they’re still operating in an appropriate context. Also pretty appropriate in historic city centers where the roads aren’t too fast and the trucks and full size SUVs aren’t too numerous. But yeah, take one out on the interstate boxed between two semi trucks, an F-350, and a Suburban and you’re going to be in real danger.

      • darth_avocado 4 hours ago

        Motorbikes are much worse in crashes than kei trucks, we are more than happy to make, sell and operate them. I don’t actually buy the “unsafe” reasoning. It’s also perfectly street legal to buy and drive cars and trucks from the 60s with abysmal safety ratings.

  • mtillman 13 hours ago

    Fine print: The truck in the link is only $20K after government subsidies/rebates. So if the government gives my tax dollars to buyers of this truck, then it will cost $20K.

    • floxy 13 hours ago

      Even finer print: the $7,500 federal incentive is a tax rebate. If you don't have a $7,500 tax liability, you won't get the full amount. (this also applies if you transfer the credit to the dealer at point of sale). I mean, money is fungible and all, but your particular tax dollars aren't going to people who buy EVs, they are just paying less in taxes.

    • Brybry 13 hours ago

      Electric vehicle tax credits are non-refundable tax credits meaning you can't get a credit for more than you owe. [1][2]

      Which means no one is getting your tax dollars to buy vehicles (though there may be some infrastructure or manufacturing grants for companies).

      [1] https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF12600

      [2] https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/tax-credits-for-individuals-wha...

      • crazygringo 11 hours ago

        That's not really true.

        If the taxes someone would otherwise pay are going to their electric vehicle instead, somebody else has to make up the difference.

        So yes, other people are getting my tax dollars to buy electric vehicles. It just takes two steps rather than one, if you want to look at it that way.

      • tzs 3 hours ago

        However instead of taking the credit yourself you can transfer it to the dealer at time of purchase to use toward the purchase. You can transfer the full $7500 credit regardless of how much tax you eventually end up owing for the year.

      • anannymoose 13 hours ago

        So, should I wish to purchase a vehicle this tax year, I tell my HR to adjust my income withholding such that I owe 7,500$ come tax time and then reap the rewards?

        Or is there more to the incentive structure?

      • PopAlongKid 12 hours ago

        >Which means no one is getting your tax dollars to buy vehicles

        Then who is making up the difference between the tax that would have been paid, and the credit reduction?

    • standardUser 13 hours ago

      As opposed to other prices that are not the product of a political economy?

    • nullc 11 hours ago

      It's ~28k without them, particularly when considering recent inflation it's an attractive price... inflation corrected it's in the vague ballpark of other small IC trucks when they were still available.

      E.g. a early 2000's Nissan frontier base model was $23k in today's money. It was a somewhat better speced (e.g. more hauling capacity) and much better range, but this new car likely has significantly lower operating costs that would easily justify a 5k uplift.

      So I think it ought to be perfectly viable without the subsidy, especially so long as the absurd CAFE standards continue to exist giving EV's a monopoly on this truck size.

    • [removed] 13 hours ago
      [deleted]
    • aaroninsf 13 hours ago

      Yes, and you will benefit, because the role of the state is to advance the collective and common good.

      That's why we have TeH gOvErNmEnT.

  • _fat_santa 15 hours ago

    My favorite thing to come out of CAFE regulations was the Aston Martin Cygnet. It was just a re-badged Toyota iQ whose sole purpose was to raise the average fuel economy within their fleet.

    Later they made a one off version for Goodwood that has a V8 stuffed under the hood.

    • mmooss 14 hours ago

      > My favorite thing to come out of CAFE regulations was the Aston Martin Cygnet. It was just a re-badged Toyota iQ whose sole purpose was to raise the average fuel economy within their fleet.

      Maybe that's a good thing. It compelled Aston Martin to provide their customers with a fuel-efficient option.

      • masklinn 13 hours ago

        Nobody looking for a fuel efficient car would look at Aston, and nobody looking at Aston would go for a fuel efficient car.

        Which was borne by its sales: sold for nearly 3 times the price you'd have paid Toyota for an iQ, it sold all of 600 units in two years before being cancelled, Aston's second shortest production run. The shortest was the Virage which sold more than 1000 units in a year.

      • lupusreal 11 hours ago

        Rebadging doesn't add any meaningful consumer choice.

  • nimish 6 hours ago

    Repealing these Obama era rules would go a long way to restoring automotive affordability. Can't undo cash for clunkers though

  • UncleOxidant 15 hours ago

    This is largely why all the vehicles around us have become supersized. It's completely idiotic.

    • ethagnawl 14 hours ago

      It's also who sedans and compact cars have largely ceased to exist. The vast majority of new vehicles are crossovers or _light trucks_, which aren't held to the same emission/efficiency standards.

      • Aurornis 14 hours ago

        > It's also who sedans and compact cars have largely ceased to exist.

        Consumer demand is still an important factor.

        Sedans and compact cars are still out there, sitting on dealer lots with reasonable prices.

    • Yhippa 14 hours ago

      Anybody know how it got to this point? It can't be because of regulatory capture, right? I don't think small cars are getting made for the US because of SUV mania and something like a 67 MPG requirement for the Honda Fit based on it's build.

      • Aurornis 13 hours ago

        > I don't think small cars are getting made for the US because of SUV mania and something like a 67 MPG requirement for the Honda Fit based on it's build.

        The famous 67MPG requirement was for a hypothetical 2026 model year car

        But Honda discontinued the Fit in the United States in 2020, long before the hypothetical 2026 target.

        The reason is consumer demand. People weren't buying them. There are thousands of lightly used Honda Fits on the used market for reasonable prices, but they're not moving.

        Yes, the regulations are flawed, but that doesn't change the lack of consumer demand.

    • [removed] 12 hours ago
      [deleted]
  • nullc 11 hours ago

    I have a small(*) twenty year old i4 pickup and I regularly get cash offers for it while out and about. There is a lot of demand for the small inexpensive and relatively fuel efficient utility vehicles that the government currently prohibits manufacturing.

    (*Ironically, though small it has a considerably longer bed than many currently produced larger and less fuel efficient trucks... I'm mystified by trucks that can't even contain a bike without removing a wheel or hanging one over a gate. Looks like the bed on this EV is a bit short too, but a short bed on a small truck is more excusable than a short bed on a huge truck)

  • api 11 hours ago

    > since 2011, bigger cars are held to a lesser standard by CAFE[1].

    ... and this is why American cars got so huge, if anyone was curious.

resters 10 hours ago

This is extremely refreshing. I think that it would be possible to make something like this in the US for under $15K even. Cars and trucks are so over-engineered and come with tons of low value options intended to drive up the price.

For a case in point, consider that headlights that turn on and off automatically in response to darkness (or rain) are not a standard feature on many cars, yet they include a manual switch that costs more than a photosensor only because of the trim-level upgrades.

Cars could include a slot for a tablet but instead come with overpriced car stereos and infotainment systems that are always light years worse than the most amateurish apps on any mobile app store.

As should be very clear by now after the 2008 US auto industry bailouts and the 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs, the US auto industry is heavily protected and faces virtually no competition, which is why a common sense vehicle like the one in the article sounds revolutionary, though I imagine BYD could deliver something a lot more impressive for $10K if allowed to compete in the US without tariffs.

  • constantcrying 28 minutes ago

    >I think that it would be possible to make something like this in the US for under $15K even.

    The closest this comes to is a Dacia spring. Which is not a great car. The dacia could not be made at US labor costs. 15k is an absurd price, Chinese companies can do it because they pay Chinese labor costs and have serious economies of scale. Unless you sell hundreds of thousands of these a year AND pay US workers like Chinese ones, 15k will not happen.

  • smcleod 10 hours ago

    To be honest most of those accessories are actually incredibly cheap at manufacturing time and several have a direct impact on safety (e.g. ensuring people don't drive around with lights off). The cost usually comes as companies use them for pricing tiers where they market them as suggested extras to ratchet up profits.

    • mceachen 10 hours ago

      Driving with your lights off at dusk or dark gets you (rightfully) pulled over by law enforcement in CA. It's well-correllated with driving under the influence.

      I'm a huge fan of many car safety regulations, but this isn't one.

      (Sign me up for car-hiding-in-blind-spot notification lights on side mirrors, though, those are great)

      • smcleod 9 hours ago

        I don't understand what you're saying here - you think it's good to have your lights turned on - but you don't want them to automatically turn on?

      • the_gipsy 9 hours ago

        That doesn't make any sense. Eliminatung DUI is not a matter of detection, and automatic light sensors save lives.

  • cco 6 hours ago

    I'll do you one better, car headlights should never be off while the motor is running. Just like motorcycles since the 70s (maybe 80s?).

    No switch at all, ignition on, headlights on, period.

    • tzs 2 hours ago

      Personally I feel like cars with headlights in the daytime on days with good visibility can be too noticeable. I find myself giving them too much attention because they stand out more in my visual field.

      When the oncoming cars do not have headlights on I find it easier to give them just enough attention to see that they are behaving normally leaving more attention to devote to things other than oncoming cars.

    • BLKNSLVR 5 hours ago

      Niche counter example:

      Parents who sit in their idling cars for (fucking) ages while their cars are facing the tennis courts thus blinding the player on the other side of the court for however long it takes them to either turn their car off, drive off, or someone to tell them turn their fucking headlights off.

      • morepedantic 4 hours ago

        How long have you been holding that one?

        • BLKNSLVR 2 hours ago

          It's only been a recent thing, noticeably more frequent the last couple of years.

          Before that I've not had to intervene at all, as far as I can remember.

          There aren't that many courts where cars park facing them, but my home courts are one of them ;)

      • dbtc 4 hours ago

        Simple solution: when the wheels start rolling, the lights come on.

        I'd still prefer to override both on/off though.

    • actinium226 5 hours ago

      But what about for electric cars? Maybe whenever the car is in anything other than P, and for 5 minutes after P?

  • seanmcdirmid 10 hours ago

    BYD could totally avoid the tariffs by making in the USA (well, they were planning a factory in Mexico, and tariffs on car parts will kill that if something doesn’t change). They already set up a bus factory in SoCal. My guess is that Chinese automakers are still hesitant about introducing their brands to Americans given politics (Volvo and Polestar are Chinese owned but I think the design is still mainly done in Sweden?).

    Japanese, Korean, and European brands already make a lot of vehicles to get around tariffs, although it makes sense for some sedans to be made abroad given American lack of interest in them (so economy of scales doesn’t work out), and sedans typically not being tariffed as harshly as trucks.

    • aurareturn 5 hours ago

        BYD could totally avoid the tariffs by making in the USA (well, they were planning a factory in Mexico, and tariffs on car parts will kill that if something doesn’t change). They already set up a bus factory in SoCal. My guess is that Chinese automakers are still hesitant about introducing their brands to Americans given politics (Volvo and Polestar are Chinese owned but I think the design is still mainly done in Sweden?).
      
      Yea you nailed it in the end. No way BYD would invest in a factory when the entire government and media are anti-China and could expel you out of the country any moment. The US is not predictable for businesses and investments right now.
    • newuser94303 5 hours ago

      Chinese investment in the US is inherently risky. For example TikTok. BYD would be stomping GM and Ford. The next thing you know, they would need to sell their factory.

    • resters 6 hours ago

      Companies spending money to navigate tariff regimes adds tremendous cost and inefficiency that makes everyone worse off.

    • worik 10 hours ago

      > BYD could totally avoid the tariffs by making in the USA

      Or concentrate on the 80% of the worldmarket that is not the USA

    • hansworst 8 hours ago

      Wouldn’t they still need to pay tariffs on all the parts they manufacture in china? Maybe I’m misunderstanding the tariffs but it sounds like Chinese companies would have to build completely separate supply chains to keep the US market

      • seanmcdirmid 4 hours ago

        Before no, or at least not very high tariffs. Now I have no idea, Trump’s story changes daily. However lots of US made autos are using Chinese parts so they are all affected to some degree.

  • tw04 10 hours ago

    >heavily protected and faces virtually no competition

    Huh? Out of the top 25 vehicles sold in the US in 2024, 16 of them are non-US automakers. Just because the US is actively blocking China from dumping heavily subsidized vehicles into the north american market, doesn't mean they "face no competition". Kia and Hyundai alone show that it's VERY possible to break into the US market if you have even a little bit of interest playing fair.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g60385784/bestselling-cars...

    • decimalenough 10 hours ago

      The only real way to break into the US market is to have factories in the US. Trucks in particular are protected by the notorious 25% "chicken tax", which has been in place since the 1960s.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

      • tw04 10 hours ago

        >Trucks in particular are protected by the notorious 25% "chicken tax", which has been in place since the 1960s.

        And yet, that applies to everyone, including US automakers, which is why Ford had to do unnatural things to import the transit from Europe.

        They aren't protecting US automakers, they're trying to retain some semblance of manufacturing in the US, which I'm fully in support of.

        Both because those are well-paying jobs and because it's a matter of national security.