Comment by pards

Comment by pards a day ago

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What can be done about this as a consumer looking to buy a new car?

    - Can I turn off data collection?
    - Can I corrupt data transmission and collection?
    - Can I charge per kb for any data collected?
    - Is the dealer obligated to disclose data collection?
I'll be in the market for a new car in the next few years but I do not want to buy anything that tracks or collects ANY data about me.

I was assuming that buying a cheap non-electric car would offer some protection but I'd love to know more.

diggan a day ago

> What can be done about this as a consumer looking to buy a new car?

For a consumer in the US, I have no idea, but I'm guessing your question is about that since the story is US-specific?

Probably off-topic, but buying a car in 2019 in Spain, they asked me if I'm OK with data-collection during the purchase, up until car delivery, and handed me a contract to sign for "treatment of personal data". I said no, we moved on.

After buying the car (2018 Audi A3), they threw in some remote-monitoring sensor "for free" that could let me/them see metrics about the car, for "maintenance" and whatever they claimed, that they offered to install. I again said "no", but kept the device itself to pick apart at some later time.

But overall, they seem required to ask (here, EU) but no one batted an eye when I said no. The car has a SIM-card reader, but never used it, I'm guessing if I install a SIM-card the car would ask me if data collection is OK, because we'll always have the choice at least.

Electric cars seems like a no-no for now (everywhere possibly), since all of them came with a "always on connection" regardless of what I want, at least last time I checked.

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  • extraduder_ire a day ago

    For a few years now, every new car sold in the EU needs a cellular connection for e-call (when airbags are deployed, the car calls 112 itself) functionality. I don't know if it's legal or common to reuse that radio for collecting other data. I would hope not.

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    • diggan a day ago

      > For a few years now, every new car sold in the EU needs a cellular connection for e-call

      Damn, that sucks. Hope my current car lasts a long time then... It even has buttons and everything.

      > I don't know if it's legal or common to reuse that radio for collecting other data. I would hope not

      My guess would be that when you first get it/boot it, you'll at least get a choice between accepting it or not, that would be the baseline.

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hn1986 a day ago

Unfortunately, a car like Tesla collects so much data. And it's only a matter of time before they start selling it. I don't know if any other car company that collects more data than Tesla.

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  • Schiendelman a day ago

    Tesla also states unequivocally that they do not sell user data: https://www.tesla.com/support/privacy

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    • diggan a day ago

      Tesla state they don't sell "personal information" but they also explicitly say that "Tesla may also collect, use, and share information that does not, on its own, personally identify you" (so "anonymized" data) and also that "personal information" is subject to be processed to "fulfill contractual obligations with third parties, agents and affiliates", whatever that means. https://www.tesla.com/legal/privacy#how-we-may-use-your-info...

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    • autoexec a day ago

      Employees are also sharing videos and photos of people in/around their cars with each other and I'm sure they end up in the hands of friends/family members as well. https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens...

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      • recursivecaveat 15 hours ago

        > Tesla states in its online “Customer Privacy Notice” that its “camera recordings remain anonymous and are not linked to you or your vehicle.” But seven former employees told Reuters the computer program they used at work could show the location of recordings – which potentially could reveal where a Tesla owner lived.

        You know they're not taking anything seriously when claiming with a straight face in the age of geoguesser that potentially hours of road footage, starting/ending with you literally driving into your garage, could ever be anonymous.

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    • finnthehuman a day ago

      Any unfaltering language a company uses is always one bizdev meeting away from "lol just update the contract of adhesion."

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    • ripply a day ago

      Tesla states a lot of things, like that their second generation 2020 roadster is going to be ready next year (tm). I wouldn't put a lot of faith in anything they say, all it takes is Musk changing his mind down the line and then anything goes.

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  • whamlastxmas a day ago

    I think I’d pick Tesla, even if it’s more data, because they have never sold that data or indicated they ever would. Unlike literally every other manufacturer that has and does

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    • floatrock a day ago

      lol has any OEM ever indicated they would sell data? Or was the truth pulled out of them after an extended legal fight where lawyers quibbled over whether weasel-words like "maintenance and quality assurance purposes" covered "selling technically anonymous information to a data broker but everyone knows there's enough metadata in there that the data broker attaches an identity when they resell it to the insurance companies"?

      Gut check, sure, but I wouldn't trust the company that argued technically autopilot wasn't turned on in car crashes because they turned it off milliseconds before the sensed impact and blamed it on driver inattention as being a good, well-intentioned data steward.

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    • mikestew a day ago

      I bought a Hyundai Ioniq 5. Hyundai never indicated that they’d sell the data, either. But guess what?

      Here’s one thing neither Tesla nor Hyundai have ever said: that they won’t sell the data. (EDIT: I stand corrected on Tesla, as per reply comment. “ We do not sell your personal information to anyone for any purpose, period.”)

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      • Schiendelman a day ago

        Tesla has said that, right on their privacy page. https://www.tesla.com/support/privacy

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        • LocalH 5 hours ago

          The cynic in me says that "do not" does not equal "will not", and even if it said "will not", that's toothless, as Google was for years famous for having "do no evil" baked into their manifesto, until one day they didn't.

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    • MetaWhirledPeas a day ago

      I agree if only because Tesla seems so vertically integrated and dedicated to their vision. Nowhere in their vision is "establish a side hustle of selling user data for extra cash".

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    • ActionHank a day ago

      "I'd pick Tesla because they're pretty cool guy and don't afraid of anything."

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    • hulitu a day ago

      > because they have never sold that data or indicated they ever would.

      They all do this until you press "I agree". Some do it even before.

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hnpolicestate a day ago

Sometimes I feel bad for repeating myself but relevant threads keep appearing.

Mazda won't permit me to use remote start because I refused to install their app and enable connected services. The man I worked with on the lease was extraordinarily aggressive with me. Almost demanding I install and register this app to complete lease agreement.

So now I don't have remote start and every time I turn the car on I have to select cancel on an infotainment prompt asking me to enable connected services.

The TOS specifically says driving data will be sold to 3rd parties including law enforcement and insurance companies.

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  • emeril a day ago

    I had a similar experience with a Mazda lease

    I never installed the app and I was asked to by the leasing guy though he wasn't pushy about it - for whatever reason, the lease/sales guys are incented to have it installed though, allegedly, mazda corporate says they don't incent them - I don't trust it

    also, allegedly, since I didn't install it, mazda says my TPU is disabled which is fine by me - remote start is less important than saying many thousands of dollars on bogus insurance hikes

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    • clejack 5 hours ago

      I didn't work for Mazda, but I did work for a large auto manufacturer, and I can tell you we did incentivize dealers to complete sign up for connected services for the reasons most of you would probably expect.

      We wanted to collect your data to sell it, utilize it for maintenance, or for general product improvement. I.e. wanted it so we could make or save money. No surprise there I hope.

      The dealer incentive was literally a payment when a customer signs up because the money we'd make with customer data outweighs the dealer kickback.

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  • pards a day ago

    > The TOS specifically says driving data will be sold to 3rd parties including law enforcement and insurance companies.

    That's awful, but at least it was written down, I guess.

    That'd be a hard "No" for me. Or at least I'd ask for a big chunk of that revenue in exchange for MY data.

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  • acuozzo a day ago

    > Almost demanding I install and register this app to complete lease agreement.

    I wonder how he would react if you were to tell him that you don't own or use a cellular phone.

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  • diggan a day ago

    Doesn't that kind of make sense when leasing though, you're essentially doing "long renting" and you don't actually own the car?

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    • gertop a day ago

      I find it amusing that you think privacy rights should only be for buyers and not renters.

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      • diggan a day ago

        Renters of what? Items people can just take and leave with, yeah I think it's OK they keep track of the thing while I'm renting it.

        A home though? I guess it makes sense that they can sometimes inspect it, but I expect privacy in my own home even if I'm renting.

        So yeah, depends. Is there some fallacy in my views or something I'm missing?

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tomrod a day ago

I am deeply interested in better understanding faraday cages that can block transmission.

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  • hulitu a day ago

    > I am deeply interested in better understanding faraday cages that can block transmission.

    You cannot shield your car (ok, you can, but then you cannot drive it). What you can do is disturb the antenna so not enough power will be available to be sent.

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    • diggan a day ago

      Quick search seems to reveal Indium Tin Oxide (ITO) coated glass is transparent enough to let through visible light, but blocks transmissions. One could theoretically build a car with that for the windows. The rest seems easier.

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      • mrguyorama a day ago

        The antenna doesn't have to be in the passenger cabin. You can make the passenger cabin a perfect faraday cage and it won't do anything.

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LeftHandPath a day ago

My plan is to buy an old 1960-1970 280SL (or, really, any somewhat reliable vintage car) and stubbornly refuse to drive anything else.

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  • diggan a day ago

    There are more recent cars than going back to the 70s that doesn't force data collection on you... My car is from 2018 and has none of that stuff, and it even has buttons for all controls, no touchscreen (2018 Audi A3).

    I like the feel of driving classic/older cars, but I really cannot justify the safety and pollution drawbacks if I wanted to use them daily.

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    • LeftHandPath a day ago

      For sure. I just really like the SL!

      Currently have a 2012 C350 Coupe that I love to death. Have had it since 2018. Fantastic car, I don’t think it spies on me too much

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    • autoexec a day ago

      More recent cars probably have onstar systems installed that need to be removed.

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    • tomrod a day ago

      What do you recommend? I thought everything 2015 forward collected data.

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      • capitainenemo a day ago

        Probably not the kind of car you are looking for, but my friend's 2015 honda odyssey (which he just traded in) had no smarts. No cellular, no GPS, console used knobs instead of a touchscreen... Whatever Deadpool's opinion of it was, it did make a great van for cargo and humans with good fuel economy for that class...

        But, sooner or later it'll be a problem. What would be interesting to me is, is it possible to deactivate cellular on a modern car without losing key functionality, and, if it is ever reactivated (say, to pull updates) would it promptly push years of data upstream.

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        • tomrod a day ago

          Ironically, we're replacing a 2011 Honda Odyssey!

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      • dvdbloc a day ago

        If you’re willing to do a little bit of work you can often remove the cellular radio from some modern cars to remove the data collection connectivity, not sure if it’d still be buffered on the device still but it’s a step in the correct direction. I’ve read about this in some modern BMWs so it might be worth a bit of googling if you have a particular modern car you are interested in. Or if no one else has done it with a particular model you could also blaze your own path here.

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        • tomrod a day ago

          I worry that removal or faraday caging might cause bricking.

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      • pmontra a day ago

        My second hand Citroën C3 originally sold on 2016 doesn't collect data AFAIK and has button and wheel controls. There is a small touchscreen (7 inches?) for configuration, trip data, radio stations etc but all controls are also on the wheel or around it.

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penjelly a day ago

many cars now have a TPU, used for connectivity and GPS, which will send telematics data when you start and stop the car. This tracking is not typically easy or possible to opt out of, in my experience.

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NotYourLawyer a day ago

Research the car ahead of time and figure out how to disconnect the telematics control unit (or whatever that manufacturer calls it).

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FollowingTheDao a day ago

I own a 2001 Dodge Grand Caravan. No tracking. Runs Great. I just keep fixing it, much cheaper than a new car. Plus I can live in it as well.

I do not know the year they started with all the tracking stuff but you can find an older car that does not have any tracking and spend the rest of the money making it mint.

There is no getting away from it though, we are all watched over by the machines of loving grace. You know with the new LoRaWAN and IoT everywhere scam they are rolling out there will be nothing you can do to escape the surveillance apparatus.

I am giving up. no sense in fighting it anymore. I am just a good little corporate boy toy now.

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  • pards a day ago

    This might be the way forward - buy a well-built older car and learn to DIY basic maintenance and repairs.

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  • mmooss a day ago

    > there will be nothing you can do

    That makes it much easier for people to collect data. People read on the Internet, yet again, that they are powerless.

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  • 14 a day ago

    That is one of the worst cars to own. You will continue to fix it more frequently at an accelerated rate mark my words. So much cheap plastic parts the parts are right at that point where they will fail molecularly and you see an increased rate of failure. To top it off the replacement parts are mostly the same age and those 2 will look new but also fail quickly. Lastly Dodge sucks. They are basically the last car I would ever buy.

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