Comment by pjmlp

Comment by pjmlp 6 days ago

64 replies

I feel relying on WINE and Proton instead of building a proper GNU/Linux ecosystem will eventually backfire, it didn't happen already because thus far Microsoft chosen to ignore it.

However as Steam vs XBox slowly escalates, Microsoft might eventually change their stance on the matter, forcing devs to rely on APIs not easier to copy, free licenses for handhelds, taking all Microsoft owned studios out of Steam, see which company has bigger budget to spend on lawyers, whatever.

baq 6 days ago

WINE and Proton piggyback on Microsoft's guarantees of Win32 stability. As long as that remains in place (which should be for all intents and purposes forever given MS's customers) they can't really do anything about it.

So, next time you hear the joke about Win32 ABI being the only stable ABI on Linux, remember it's funny because it's true!

  • Dalewyn 6 days ago

    Don't forget Windows finally made Year of the Linux Desktop(tm) a reality, Windows is the best desktop Linux distro (Android gets the mobile Linux distro crown).

    • pxc 6 days ago

      Windows' desktop environment is much too lackluster for that. It's uniquely inconsistent (many distinct toolkits with irreconcilable look-and-feel, even in the base system), has poorly organized system configuration apps that are not very capable, takes a long time to start up so that the desktop becomes usable, is full of nasty dark patterns, suffers an infestation of ads in many versions.

      Besides the many issues with the desktop itself, Windows offers piss poor filesystem performance for common developer tools, plus leaves users to contend with the complexity of a split world thanks to the (very slow) 9pfs shares used to present host filesystems to guest and vice-versa.

      And then there's the many nasty and long-lived bugs, from showstopping memory leaks to data loss on the virtual disks of the guests to broken cursor tracking for GUI apps in WSLg...

      • SoothingSorbet 5 days ago

        > It's uniquely inconsistent (many distinct toolkits with irreconcilable look-and-feel, even in the base system)

        While I agree that Windows has long since abandoned UI/UX consistency, it's not like that is unique: On desktop Linux I regularly have mixed Qt/KDE, GTK2, GTK3+/libadwaita and Electron (with every JS GUI framework being a different UI/UX experience) GUIs and dialogs. I'm sure libcosmic/iced and others will be added eventually too.

      • wqaatwt 5 days ago

        > has poorly organized system configuration app

        To be fair almost all Linux distros are as bad if not worse in this regard.

        Things like YAST which are supposed to fix that are unambiguously horrible in their own right (extremely slow, crappy UX etc)

  • pjmlp 6 days ago

    If all one wants it to run games that use the Win32 API as defined today, surely.

    If all one wants it to run games that use the Win32 API as defined tomrrow, anyone's guess.

    • int_19h 5 days ago

      If the API only has additions, then Microsoft would still need to convince game devs to actually use them (and Valve will point out that if they do, their game will not work on Steam Deck, so there's a clear downside).

      If some APIs are removed, it breaks older Windows games. I can't think of any historical API that has been completely removed in this way - even stuff like DirectDraw and DirectPlay is still there even though it has been deprecated for decades.

      • pjmlp 5 days ago

        See ABK deal, Microsoft has tolerated SteamDeck thus far, they own the platform.

    • baq 6 days ago

      Note this is a huge improvement from 'binary is guaranteed to not work in the future, probably not too distant' of the standard model of Linux distributions.

    • wqaatwt 5 days ago

      If Linux gaming picks up and it gains significant market share then that is not an issue. Game developers will not use APIs that don’t work on the machines of ~20% of their users (or won’t make it mandatory, anyway)

      Considering the alternative (ie. the native approach) would result in having very few games on Linux anyway that doesn’t seem that bad.

InsideOutSanta 6 days ago

There's a good chance that if that if Microsoft doesn't act soon enough, and a lot more devices running Steam OS are released, Proton might become the de-facto platform against which many new games are developed, and which engines target.

At that point, there is nothing Microsoft can do.

  • freedomben 6 days ago

    Agreed. I actually think it might be too late at this point since it takes so long to turn the aircraft carrier.

    Microsoft can't realistically deprecate/remove Win32, so all they could do is entice with new APIs. That will work for some games, but especially with the frameworks in place, they'll have to be really good to get people to abandon Steam Deck compatibility to use them.

    • pjmlp 6 days ago

      They already control enough studios, PC and XBox market.

      SteckDeck compatibility relies on "emulating" Windows ecosystem.

      Remember DR-DOS, OS/2 and EEE PC.

      • BlueTemplar 6 days ago

        EEE PC was tiny, IBM (OS/2) were full of hubris, what happened to DR-DOS ?

        Valve is neither tiny, nor does seem to be under the thrall of hubris. Also Microsoft seems complacent so far, though that might change.

        • pjmlp 5 days ago

          Originally Windows was designed to detect and not run if using DR-DOS.

      • wqaatwt 5 days ago

        Sure, MS could purposefully try and make their first party games not run on Linux.

        However.. why? It would be the same as purposefully losing money but not selling on Steam.

        Besides that what could they do? Within getting into all types of legal trouble?

      • kbolino 6 days ago

        They bought a lot of companies and are doing their level best at running them into the ground. Xbox is a dying platform. They may try some things that they've tried before (GFWL) but they're not going to succeed this time either.

        Kernel-level anti-cheat is a bigger threat to gaming on Linux than anything Microsoft has directly done, but even that is fixable.

  • pjmlp 6 days ago

    Microsoft controls Windows and DirectX, Valve only gets to play until Windows landlord allows it.

    DR-DOS, OS/2 and EEE PC.

    Lets see if SteamOS makes the list as well, this is after all round two, Steam Machines didn't go that well.

    • jwcooper 6 days ago

      The Steam Deck is basically the successor to the Steam Machines. The actual hardware didn't go that well, but they laid the foundation in software for what we have now.

      So, in a way, the Steam Machines were a great success.

      Also, Valve has (for better and worse) far more power and control in the gaming ecosystem than most companies Microsoft has to deal with.

      • pjmlp 5 days ago

        Depends on how many key AAA studios are part of Microsoft Game Studios portfolio.

    • Yeul 6 days ago

      Microsoft tried to put their games on their own store but they crawled back to Steam.

      Honestly Windows is more open than MS haters give it credit for.

      • pjmlp 5 days ago

        They did, does mean they will let Valve screw SteamOS on their face.

      • kbolino 6 days ago

        Yeah, GFWL was a debacle that has thankfully been largely forgotten. If Microsoft couldn't pull it off back then, they're not going to today.

        • BlueTemplar 5 days ago

          They now own Activision-Blizzard-King, which even now (new Battle.net) is still better than GFWD ever was.

    • cyberax 5 days ago

      > Microsoft controls Windows and DirectX, Valve only gets to play until Windows landlord allows it.

      DirectX has to stay reasonably close to Vulkan. And Vulkan is not an afterthought for graphics card manufacturers, quite unlike OpenGL of yore.

      And Win32 (sans Vulkan/DX) is mostly feature-complete for gaming purposes. Manufacturers can just target the current state of Win32 for a decade more, if not even longer.

      • pjmlp 5 days ago

        It certainly is, in what concerns NVidia, they keep innovating first with Microsoft on DirectX, and then eventually come up with Vulkan extensions.

        Last example, AI shaders announced at CEBIT.

        Vulkan has turned into the same extension spaghetti as OpenGL.

    • [removed] 6 days ago
      [deleted]
jandrese 6 days ago

On the other hand building Linux binaries and keeping them running for years without maintenance has proven far more difficult than emulating Windows.

For an example track down the ports Loki games did many years ago and try to get them running on a modern machine. The most reliable way for me has been to install a very old version of Linux (Redhat 8, note: Not RHEL 8) on a VM and run them in there.

  • pjmlp 6 days ago

    Naturally it means GNU/Linux will never improve until being forced upon.

    • jandrese 6 days ago

      It just means Microsoft has put more emphasis on ABI compatibility. This makes sense. In the open source world ABI compatibility is less of an issue because you can just recompile if there are breaking changes. ABI compatibility is far more important in a commercial closed source context where the source may be lost forever when a company shuts down or discontinues a product line.

      • BlueTemplar 6 days ago

        It would be really nice to see open source being more widespread in games, though of course it's harder because they are more art than software.

        Splitting code and audiovisual assets might work ?

    • wqaatwt 5 days ago

      It didn’t for decades (in this specific regard) why does you think it could change?

      People running Linux hate software shipped as binaries due to various technical and ideological reasons. Why would this change?

mschuster91 6 days ago

> I feel relying on WINE and Proton instead of building a proper GNU/Linux ecosystem will eventually backfire, it didn't happen already because thus far Microsoft chosen to ignore it.

Microsoft can't do shit against WINE/Proton legally, as long as either project steers clear of misappropriated source code and some forms of reverse engineering (Europe's regulations are much more relaxed than in the US).

The problem at the core is that Linux (or to be more accurately, the ecosystem around it) lacks a stable set of APIs, or even commonly agreed-upon standards in the first place, as every distribution has "their" way of doing things and only the kernel has an explicit "we don't break userspace" commitment. I distinctly remember a glibc upgrade that went wrong about a decade and a half ago where I had to spend a whole night getting my server even back to usable (thank God I had eventually managed to coerce the system into downloading a statically compiled busybox...).

  • pjmlp 6 days ago

    They surely can, and Valve got lucky UWP didn't took off as they feared.

    Microsoft can easily do another go at it.

    That is the problem building castles on other vendor platforms.

    As reminder,

    https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/127475-valve-confirms-ste...

    • jwcooper 6 days ago

      Microsoft is going the opposite of what you're suggesting. Their games are coming to Steam, Playstation and Switch. Also, their game division isn't exactly thriving right now. They have a ton of studios, but they are not selling hardware very well right now.

      The more that time goes on, and the more entrenched steamOS/Proton becomes, they will not have any sort of easy time trying to lock-in to Windows. Even now in the earliest days of steamOS, there is blow-back when a game does not support the Steam Deck (which means Proton).

      • pjmlp 5 days ago

        Playstation and Switch, for sure.

        Steam, not on detriment of Windows, how can they allow something like SteamOS to put Windows to shame, with their own APIs?

        I can bet on them changing that, lets see who's got deeper pockets.

    • lukevp 6 days ago

      Games aren’t going to suddenly start targeting only updated copies of windows 11 though… if they target even win 10 then they need to be API compatible with what’s currently there in windows. It doesn’t matter what new stuff comes out. Just like how we had to keep using ie6 compatible code for ages for the 5% of people still on windows xp even though it kept us from using modern web tech for everyone else.

      • pjmlp 6 days ago

        Depends on how much Microsoft decides Windows Store and XBox App are relevant for game developers targeting the PC going forward.

    • mschuster91 6 days ago

      > They surely can, and Valve got lucky UWP didn't took off as they feared.

      So what, assuming it had taken off it would just be yet another set of crap APIs to develop wrappers for.

      • pjmlp 5 days ago

        So is the burden of playing with other people toys.

        • wqaatwt 5 days ago

          Still a nicer problem to have than developing “non crappy” APIs that nobody uses or cares about.

wqaatwt 5 days ago

> forcing devs to rely on APIs not easier to copy

Would that still not be easier than developing something stable and finding ways to force 3rd party developers to support Linux? (when you can offer them anything in return)