Comment by ylee

Comment by ylee 6 days ago

95 replies

I played the Linux version the article mentions while at Goldman Sachs; a colleague on the Red Hat coverage team gave me a boxed copy of Corel Linux including the game. The port ran very well on my Red Hat Linux box at home.

In retrospect it was part of a brief flurry of Linux ports of major games. I also got to play Return to Castle Wolfenstein and Neverwinter Nights; in both cases the publishers made Linux clients available for download that use the retail version's assets. Despite the valiant efforts of Wine and related projects, the world would have to wait 15 more years before Proton leveraged Wine technology to bring quasi-native games to Linux, and 20 years before Steam Deck made it the norm or close to it.

linsomniac 6 days ago

That reminds me of 1999, where I threw a party to help my friends modify their Celeron 300A CPUs so they could run dual-socket. My dual 300A running at 450MHz would run Starcraft under WINE faster than Windows could run it because at the time Windows couldn't do multi-core. Under Linux one processor would run the graphics (in X) and the other would run the game mechanics, and it would blaze.

  • runlevel1 6 days ago

    Was that the period of time when you got more bang for your buck building a PC with dual-socket Celerons than one high-end Pentium?

    EDIT: An excellent retrospective on it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE-k4hYHIDE

    • linsomniac 6 days ago

      Yes, the dual Celeron 300As, if you could take advantage of multiple cores, were faster than the higher end CPUs, particularly if you overclocked to 450MHz. My box was stable at 450MHz for around a year, then I had to gradually down-clock it, eventually back to 300. Never really did much to track down why that was, just rolled with it and figured I should be grateful for the overclocking I had.

      • giobox 6 days ago

        I also ran a dual Celeron system overclocked to 450mhz - it was great value in 1999. Abit even launched a motherboard that let you run dual Celerons without modifying the processors, the legendary BP6:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABIT_BP6

        This was first board to let you use unmodified Celerons, the "hack" to let dual CPUs work with those chips was performed at the motherboard level, no CPU pin modifications needed.

      • dlevine 5 days ago

        About a year later, I got the P3-550 that overclocked to 733. Not quite as good of an overclock in terms of percentages, but I ran that machine for 5 years with no issues.

      • mnky9800n 6 days ago

        Did you pet you cpus at the end and say something like, “you had a good run boys but we best be putting you out to pasture.”

      • vanjajaja1 6 days ago

        iirc those overclocks needed thermal paste to be reapplied, plus dust in case probably crushed airflow

  • bbarnett 6 days ago

    I hate you.

    Well, just envy hate and just momentarily. Back then, such hacks were harder to find/discover. I would have loved to do that hack, I yearned for true multicpu.

    • bombcar 6 days ago

      That stuff was all over Slashdot at the time, where I heard about it; even got one and ran it for awhile, eventually relegating it to a Linux server.

      • mnky9800n 6 days ago

        For some reason I feel like running home stuff fell out of favour. Or perhaps, I stopped doing it. I would prefer to do it again however I don’t ever have an idea what to do with it since these days I just stream everything from the internet. And I have plenty of cloud compute for whatever I want to do.

sho_hn 6 days ago

I remember Corel Linux!

It was the first Linux I ever used, from a PC magazine CD in 1999. A significantly hacked-up KDE 1.1 w/ integrated Wine. To this day, you can find Corel in the copyright dialogs of a few notable KDE apps, e.g. the file archiver Ark.

I'm now looking back on 25 years of Linux use, 19 of them as a KDE developer, including writing large parts of the Plasma 5/6 shell, 6-7 years on the KDE board, and working on the Steam Deck (which ships with KDE Plasma) at a contractor for a hot minute to bring gaming back as well. At least on the personal level it was an impactful product :-)

  • luismedel 6 days ago

    Same here. The Spanish edition of PC Mag included Core Linux. It was the most pleasant install experience in much, much time (next, next, next, finish)

thatjoeoverthr 6 days ago

I had the box set, it was the first Linux game I bought. The flurry was Loki Games, a porting house. They let me help as a beta tester! I got to test Descent III and Mindrover. Next would have been Deus Ex, but they flamed out. One of them, Sam Latinga, built SDL and I believe is still active.

  • Patrick_Devine 6 days ago

    I still have my boxed copy (along with everything Loki produced) in a big box in the garage.

  • sho_hn 6 days ago

    I think Loki also originated OpenAL, which is still around as well.

freedomben 6 days ago

What a shame, GOG only has the Windows version :-(

I'd love to buy the linux native version.

  • pantalaimon 6 days ago

    You probably don't, the old linux binaries are notoriously hard to get to function properly on a modern distribution.

    While the kernel interface remained stable across all those years, user space libraries have changed quite a lot, so it's much easier to run the Windows version with wine.

    • freedomben 6 days ago

      ah, that makes a ton of sense actually. Thanks!

      • MrBra 5 days ago

        Also, take a look at Heroic (game launcher and library with integrated Wine for GOG/Epic/Amazon Prime), available for Windows too.

  • sevensor 4 days ago

    Plays just fine under Wine, better than on modern Windows in fact

pjmlp 6 days ago

I feel relying on WINE and Proton instead of building a proper GNU/Linux ecosystem will eventually backfire, it didn't happen already because thus far Microsoft chosen to ignore it.

However as Steam vs XBox slowly escalates, Microsoft might eventually change their stance on the matter, forcing devs to rely on APIs not easier to copy, free licenses for handhelds, taking all Microsoft owned studios out of Steam, see which company has bigger budget to spend on lawyers, whatever.

  • baq 6 days ago

    WINE and Proton piggyback on Microsoft's guarantees of Win32 stability. As long as that remains in place (which should be for all intents and purposes forever given MS's customers) they can't really do anything about it.

    So, next time you hear the joke about Win32 ABI being the only stable ABI on Linux, remember it's funny because it's true!

    • Dalewyn 6 days ago

      Don't forget Windows finally made Year of the Linux Desktop(tm) a reality, Windows is the best desktop Linux distro (Android gets the mobile Linux distro crown).

      • pxc 6 days ago

        Windows' desktop environment is much too lackluster for that. It's uniquely inconsistent (many distinct toolkits with irreconcilable look-and-feel, even in the base system), has poorly organized system configuration apps that are not very capable, takes a long time to start up so that the desktop becomes usable, is full of nasty dark patterns, suffers an infestation of ads in many versions.

        Besides the many issues with the desktop itself, Windows offers piss poor filesystem performance for common developer tools, plus leaves users to contend with the complexity of a split world thanks to the (very slow) 9pfs shares used to present host filesystems to guest and vice-versa.

        And then there's the many nasty and long-lived bugs, from showstopping memory leaks to data loss on the virtual disks of the guests to broken cursor tracking for GUI apps in WSLg...

    • pjmlp 6 days ago

      If all one wants it to run games that use the Win32 API as defined today, surely.

      If all one wants it to run games that use the Win32 API as defined tomrrow, anyone's guess.

      • int_19h 5 days ago

        If the API only has additions, then Microsoft would still need to convince game devs to actually use them (and Valve will point out that if they do, their game will not work on Steam Deck, so there's a clear downside).

        If some APIs are removed, it breaks older Windows games. I can't think of any historical API that has been completely removed in this way - even stuff like DirectDraw and DirectPlay is still there even though it has been deprecated for decades.

      • baq 6 days ago

        Note this is a huge improvement from 'binary is guaranteed to not work in the future, probably not too distant' of the standard model of Linux distributions.

      • wqaatwt 5 days ago

        If Linux gaming picks up and it gains significant market share then that is not an issue. Game developers will not use APIs that don’t work on the machines of ~20% of their users (or won’t make it mandatory, anyway)

        Considering the alternative (ie. the native approach) would result in having very few games on Linux anyway that doesn’t seem that bad.

  • InsideOutSanta 6 days ago

    There's a good chance that if that if Microsoft doesn't act soon enough, and a lot more devices running Steam OS are released, Proton might become the de-facto platform against which many new games are developed, and which engines target.

    At that point, there is nothing Microsoft can do.

    • freedomben 6 days ago

      Agreed. I actually think it might be too late at this point since it takes so long to turn the aircraft carrier.

      Microsoft can't realistically deprecate/remove Win32, so all they could do is entice with new APIs. That will work for some games, but especially with the frameworks in place, they'll have to be really good to get people to abandon Steam Deck compatibility to use them.

      • pjmlp 6 days ago

        They already control enough studios, PC and XBox market.

        SteckDeck compatibility relies on "emulating" Windows ecosystem.

        Remember DR-DOS, OS/2 and EEE PC.

    • pjmlp 6 days ago

      Microsoft controls Windows and DirectX, Valve only gets to play until Windows landlord allows it.

      DR-DOS, OS/2 and EEE PC.

      Lets see if SteamOS makes the list as well, this is after all round two, Steam Machines didn't go that well.

      • jwcooper 6 days ago

        The Steam Deck is basically the successor to the Steam Machines. The actual hardware didn't go that well, but they laid the foundation in software for what we have now.

        So, in a way, the Steam Machines were a great success.

        Also, Valve has (for better and worse) far more power and control in the gaming ecosystem than most companies Microsoft has to deal with.

        • pjmlp 5 days ago

          Depends on how many key AAA studios are part of Microsoft Game Studios portfolio.

      • Yeul 6 days ago

        Microsoft tried to put their games on their own store but they crawled back to Steam.

        Honestly Windows is more open than MS haters give it credit for.

      • cyberax 5 days ago

        > Microsoft controls Windows and DirectX, Valve only gets to play until Windows landlord allows it.

        DirectX has to stay reasonably close to Vulkan. And Vulkan is not an afterthought for graphics card manufacturers, quite unlike OpenGL of yore.

        And Win32 (sans Vulkan/DX) is mostly feature-complete for gaming purposes. Manufacturers can just target the current state of Win32 for a decade more, if not even longer.

      • [removed] 6 days ago
        [deleted]
  • jandrese 6 days ago

    On the other hand building Linux binaries and keeping them running for years without maintenance has proven far more difficult than emulating Windows.

    For an example track down the ports Loki games did many years ago and try to get them running on a modern machine. The most reliable way for me has been to install a very old version of Linux (Redhat 8, note: Not RHEL 8) on a VM and run them in there.

    • pjmlp 6 days ago

      Naturally it means GNU/Linux will never improve until being forced upon.

      • jandrese 6 days ago

        It just means Microsoft has put more emphasis on ABI compatibility. This makes sense. In the open source world ABI compatibility is less of an issue because you can just recompile if there are breaking changes. ABI compatibility is far more important in a commercial closed source context where the source may be lost forever when a company shuts down or discontinues a product line.

      • wqaatwt 5 days ago

        It didn’t for decades (in this specific regard) why does you think it could change?

        People running Linux hate software shipped as binaries due to various technical and ideological reasons. Why would this change?

  • mschuster91 6 days ago

    > I feel relying on WINE and Proton instead of building a proper GNU/Linux ecosystem will eventually backfire, it didn't happen already because thus far Microsoft chosen to ignore it.

    Microsoft can't do shit against WINE/Proton legally, as long as either project steers clear of misappropriated source code and some forms of reverse engineering (Europe's regulations are much more relaxed than in the US).

    The problem at the core is that Linux (or to be more accurately, the ecosystem around it) lacks a stable set of APIs, or even commonly agreed-upon standards in the first place, as every distribution has "their" way of doing things and only the kernel has an explicit "we don't break userspace" commitment. I distinctly remember a glibc upgrade that went wrong about a decade and a half ago where I had to spend a whole night getting my server even back to usable (thank God I had eventually managed to coerce the system into downloading a statically compiled busybox...).

    • pjmlp 6 days ago

      They surely can, and Valve got lucky UWP didn't took off as they feared.

      Microsoft can easily do another go at it.

      That is the problem building castles on other vendor platforms.

      As reminder,

      https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/127475-valve-confirms-ste...

      • jwcooper 6 days ago

        Microsoft is going the opposite of what you're suggesting. Their games are coming to Steam, Playstation and Switch. Also, their game division isn't exactly thriving right now. They have a ton of studios, but they are not selling hardware very well right now.

        The more that time goes on, and the more entrenched steamOS/Proton becomes, they will not have any sort of easy time trying to lock-in to Windows. Even now in the earliest days of steamOS, there is blow-back when a game does not support the Steam Deck (which means Proton).

      • lukevp 6 days ago

        Games aren’t going to suddenly start targeting only updated copies of windows 11 though… if they target even win 10 then they need to be API compatible with what’s currently there in windows. It doesn’t matter what new stuff comes out. Just like how we had to keep using ie6 compatible code for ages for the 5% of people still on windows xp even though it kept us from using modern web tech for everyone else.

      • mschuster91 6 days ago

        > They surely can, and Valve got lucky UWP didn't took off as they feared.

        So what, assuming it had taken off it would just be yet another set of crap APIs to develop wrappers for.

  • wqaatwt 5 days ago

    > forcing devs to rely on APIs not easier to copy

    Would that still not be easier than developing something stable and finding ways to force 3rd party developers to support Linux? (when you can offer them anything in return)

gmueckl 5 days ago

Was the Linux port made by Loki Software by any chance? That shirt lived company did a lot to make Linux viable for gaming. They developed a bunch of new libraries to help with porting and open sourced them. SDL was one of them.

Edit: OpenAL was another one of their libraries.