Comment by 113
Comment by 113 10 months ago
> legitimate military targets during a time of war
Israel and Lebanon are not at war.
Comment by 113 10 months ago
> legitimate military targets during a time of war
Israel and Lebanon are not at war.
Yes, but these are more akin to bombings and not surgical strikes.
We’ll know more in the coming days on the impact, but I too feel uncomfortable even as someone who’s mostly supportive of Israel.
> Yes, but these are more akin to bombings and not surgical strikes.
Not sure why you think that? If reports are true, these were relatively small bombings that only impacted people carrying a pager that was specifically handed out to Hezbollah members, and presumably only military members. There was collateral damage, but far less than there would be by even the most surgical of surgical strikes (which usually refers to sending in highly targeted missiles to take out, say, only a single apartment).
Of course we might learn that that isn't accurate, but that's the story as I currently understand it.
Because on the face of things, the Lebanese buyers were assumed to be Hezbollah. They sold pagers and handhelds without bombs, but when sold to Lebanese?
We don’t know at this time what percentage of these pagers were sold to and in possession of civilians.
So unlike a single phone, it certainly seems more indiscriminate.
Again, according to reporting, these bombs were placed specifically in pagers that were were for Hezbollah member's use. The reporting suggest that it was a shipment of pagers for Hezbollah members.
Again, if we want to wait a bit more and see more reporting, then update, I'm all for it. But it's been a few days, and Hezbollah has already claimed that most of the people killed by pagers were their members, iirc. We also all know of the horrible and tragic death of one 9-year-old girl.
I haven't seen any reporting suggesting that there were many civilians harmed. I've certainly heard many people claiming that civilians could've been harmed, but I'd think that if there were many civilian victims, in this day and age of social media and instant communication, we'd have heard about them. I at least haven't.
Again, totally willing to change my mind. But my prior is to trust Israel to not do some kind of indiscriminate attack. Add to this reporting saying that this was targeted, add to this that several days later there aren't stories of massive civilian casualties - for now, I think it was a targeted attack.
And I guess like in Gaza, civilians are de facto complicit. Plus they are Arabs and not Jewish so can we really apply human rights to them? Are they even actually humans? I guess it’s not genocide when it’s done to animals. /s
1. We are guilty by association. 2. When a guy makes a choice to join up with a terrorist organization he will bring that guilt home with him. It will affect those around him.
We may be free to choose but we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. Even when they affect the innocent we associate with. If this is a new thought to you read a few more books.
Here are some suggestions... The Holy Bible Hillbilly Elegy The Narnia Series The Hobbit The Lord of the Rings
We are not guilty by association. Becoming a militant does make you are valid target though and terror organizations are mostly militant.
The reports say that these devices were specifically part of shipments that went specifically to Hezbollah.
Which makes sense - I don't think the US Army is using the same walkies that a random hospital in the US uses, for example.
It's far too early for anyone to know that with certainty. And (for what feels like the nth time), Hezbollah is not just a bunch of guys with weapons, it's the civil administration in large parts of the country.
Also if the situation were reversed and Hezbollah carried out an attack like this on the IDF, I really doubt the Israelis would just suck it up and say 'oh well occupational hazard of military life, guess we'll retaliate somehow.'
Unfortunately, I don't know that we can know that there is such a clear distinction. Hezbollah also provides many other governmental services, so I don't think we can totally rule out the possibility that, e.g., ambulances could be driven by Hezbollah members who use these radios.
Amazing that people can't even read these days. Literally in the article, this wasn't all walkies.
Hezbollah doesn't speak for all of Lebanon but it certainly is at war with Israel. Permanently for that matter because it exists to attack Israel.
The Israeli defense minister, Yoav Gallant, describes it as such. I imagine if pressed he'd argue that Israel is attacking Hezbollah and not Lebanon, but given the extreme civil dysfunction in Lebanon it's equally arguable that Hezbollah is the de facto government for a lot of the country.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-exp...
Its not, but Hezbollah is in control of the hot border in the south.
Its a govt within a govt.
Well, there’s been a (tense) ceasefire for nearly the last 20 years, that was eventually broken on October 8 by Hezbollah:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Counci...
> there’s been a (tense) ceasefire for nearly the last 20 years
True, but much of that was spent by Hezbollah fighting in the Syrian Civil War on behalf of Assad (their historical benefactor in Israel).
Now that the civil war is de facto over with Assad in control of most of the country except rump Turkish and de facto Israeli (Jabal al Deize) exclusion zones, Hezbollah returned to antagonizing Israel.
The Israel-Hezbollah conflict was bound to happen even if 10/7 didn't happen.
> Israel and Lebanon are not at war.
Maybe not, but the combatants holding those devices were at war, no?
> but the combatants holding those devices were at war, no?
The attack wasn't as targeted as you seem to think. It also hit health workers and bystanders. Approx half the casualties are civilians (including children).
According to Humans rights watch: https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/09/18/lebanon-exploding-pagers...
> Thousands of pagers simultaneously exploded across Lebanon and parts of Syria on September 17, 2024, resulting in at least 12 deaths, including at least two children and two health workers, and at least 2,800 injuries, according to Lebanon’s Ministry of Health.
> Approx half the casualties are civilians
Citation needed for that. None of the news reports, even the heavily biased ones, have reported mass civilian casualties.
The citation, as requested:
"two children and four health workers in a hospital in southern Beirut were among the 12 people who were killed on Tuesday."
- Public Health Minister Firas Abiad in a press conference
I expect more detailed reports will be shared over the next few days about the total casualty.
That still looks like a more targeted approach than "precise strikes" on schools and humanitarian zones like in https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyx9znxl4eo
But Israel and Hezbollah are at war, and these are (reportedly) devices used by Hezbollah operatives.
A war Hezbollah declared, btw.