Show HN: In a single HTML file, an app to encourage my children to invest
(roberdam.com)247 points by roberdam 4 days ago
247 points by roberdam 4 days ago
Investing for retirement at 17 is a bad idea! At 17 you should still be thinking about investing in education - the right education investment today will pay back far more than any other monitory investment. There are of course bad education investments, and some are not willing to study even more (or not able to pass a good education course), in that case retirement might be the best investment you can make, but it should not be your first choice.
A different reply said they waited until 26 to start - that is probably about the right time to start saving for retirement. Maybe a little late, but close enough. Before about that age you are still getting started and so you have little spare cash. You need to pay off school loans (if you took any). You need to save for down payment on a house, and buy a lot of those will last a lifetime household items everyone needs. You should be thinking about marriage and saving for it (even if you don't get legally married most people will live with someone else and should be planning on how to make that life work).
Most important: you don't know how long you will live. Save for the future, but not everything - you have no guarantee you will live to tomorrow - if you are under 60 odds are strongly in favor of it, but people die young all the time. You should have a little play money as well in your budget. Go climb Mt Fuji while your body is young and healthy enough to do so (I picked a random activity here, you should decide what you care about, not rush to Japan)
If you start investing a small amount at age 17 you can build the habit and increase totals later.
Saying "I'll do it later when it is rational" often translates to "I won't do it (for a long time)". Which is not rational
This is true of most money behaviors! My mom taught me the same thing about giving.
And even today, knowing way more about personal finance than I did at the start of my working life, I'm still amazed at how blocking out money in the budget astronomically increases your chances that that money actually goes to the thing you want.
Yes. You can make it a 2% contribution at 17 then add another 2% each year, until you hit say 24% at 29 then keep it there.
Then the habit is set up and you just log in to whatever and up the number.
I think it's actually a bad thing to think about money early on. Because it adds a layer of responsibility which I think takes away from simply enjoying life and focusing on what you might be truly passionate about.
One of the things I hate about my 30s is that I'm focused on money now and it feels like I'm not living the life that I want. It just feels like I'm preparing for death.
Which I'm not saying isn't the sensible thing to do, there's just something inherently managerial about it which doesn't seem intuitive to living a meaningful life.
The earliest years of your earning life contribute overwhelmingly more to your final retirement figure than your later years. Anyone lucky enough to have a job in their teens that gives them disposable income after each paycheck really, really, really should be saving and investing. Like OP, if I was more serious about investing in my early years, I would be retired by now.
One can lead a meaningful, enjoyable life while also considering their finances.
> One of the things I hate about my 30s is that I'm focused on money now and it feels like I'm not living the life that I want. It just feels like I'm preparing for death.
FAANG job at 22. Save up 25k a year for 4 years, that is 100k. You'll already retire at 56 with over 1.5M in the bank. It isn't perfect but it is a lot better than what most people do.
Really all you need to do as a programmer is max out 401k and maybe throw another 10k a year into savings on top of that.
I worked at MSFT for a decade and I would have retired at 40 if I hadn't spent 3 years trying to run a startup after my time at Microsoft.
This includes international travel every year, and 2 domestic vacations.
> You'll already retire at 56 with over 1.5M in the bank
That 1.5M isn't inflation adjusted. If there is 0 inflation between now and when you die 1.5M is plenty. However the more inflation there is between now and when you die the more money you will need, the later you need to retire, or the less spending money you have. (of course we need to asking how things like social security fits into your plans as well, but this is already complex enough).
If you 22 and used to a FAANG income even with saving $25k/year every year you need more than 3M to retire retire without losing quality of life (even though most of that is luxury).
Are you willing to live on less, or will you discover with your free time you want to spend more money (hobby supplies? Now you have time to travel - maybe first class). I can't answer this question for you, but you need to think about it. Worse, your answer is likely to change over time.
>Investing for retirement at 17 is a bad idea! At 17 you should still be thinking about investing in education
Why would you assume they are mutually exclusive? You can just do both.
And poor people just should eat cake, I know..
For real, I believe most 17 year olds on this earth do not have the funds to invest in education AND in a retirement fond, so there are choices to be made. (there are also the choices of creating social bonds and investing into activities together, ...)
As with many times when we use the word "should" (and you've used it a lot), the perspective you're sharing is deeply influenced by your own cultural background and might not apply to many people reading.
A few examples: school loans, considering a house purchase to be a sound investment, purchasing once-in-a-lifetime household items, saving for a wedding (from the age of 17!?) or marriage (not sure what you even mean by that if you don't mean the wedding itself?).
The details matter and are personal I agree.
Even if a house isn't right for you, you still need to save for the deposit on an apartment. You still need to buy furnishings for your apartment. You won't even know if a house is right for you until you are mid 20s to 30, so it is probably best to save for a house and if you decide at 30 it isn't right for you roll that money into retirement savings (if a house isn't right for you that means you need more retirement savings)
Relationships - even if you don't have a wedding or kids - come at the time you have those starting to get out on your own expenses. You will need to figure those out.
I'd offer learning skills, personal finance and other life skills, (more or less public) speaking, potentially languages and (modest) mathematics as some examples of skills that will probably be useful for any foreseeable future including most dystopias. Particularly they are things that many 17 year olds will be lacking.
> At 17 you should still be thinking about investing in education
I mean, sure, in a perfect world you can postpone retirement savings. But if we're doing perfect world, you shouldn't have to think about "investing in education", your government should have the basic cognitive skills that would let it recognize that they should invest in education - ROI is pretty spectacular.
Realistically, both, because... otherwise you just pick how screwed you'll be later in life.
Sometimes I feel like I started investing late at 26. Already, six years into the best decade for compounding in your life. But such was the power of compounding that I had reached a substantial net worth by age 35. So even just nine years can make such a tremendous difference even into later ages. It's never too late to sock money away.
It remains to be seen what's going to happen over the next few decades. It's entirely possible that it'll all get wiped out (the substantial gains, not all value).
While the market was a very good bet for the last 50yrs, its not a guarantee.
Especially in the current climate you should be fully aware that it's significantly more risky to start investing today vs 10 yrs ago.
(Riskier doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad idea. It should just be a conscious decision under the acknowledgement that the upward trajectory is not certain. Especially in current political climate - and that "hodl"-ing doesn't necessarily mean you'll eventually get back what you invested, if a downturn manifests)
>> Especially in the current climate you should be fully aware that it's significantly more risky to start investing today vs 10 yrs ago.
First, I don't think this absolute statement is true; I think you need to look at it from the alternatives perspective. If not investing then what? bury gold? spend it all?
Second, are we at a much riskier time than past history, both short & long term? I made significant contributions in 2014, saw 30%+ wiped out within 6 months and seen it all come back and more with the power of long timeframes.
Third, investment can take a lot of forms, not just today's hot tech stocks. I won't get into it beyond the standard think long term and avoid leverage, which seems to be completely inline with start early; start now.
Your money has to go somewhere or it will rot to inflation. If you're ultrabearish on stocks, snap up bonds. If you're bearish on stocks and bonds alike, snap up gold. Either way, bare minimum of what to do with your money long term is to preserve its value across inflation.
But really I would recommend nonetheless staying the course with investment advice on a stocks/bonds balance relative to your age. Increasingly, the economy distributes not through labour but through capital and holding stocks is essential even with their inherent risks. Even in light of that CNN article about meme stock and crypto investors having the last laugh over the past decade, indices of ordinary large-cap stocks bring you exposure to these things.
There is never a guarantee, but all I can say is that there have been people claiming we're in a bubble for over a decade now. Maybe we are, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be investing instead of spending all of your money.
Historically, it takes about 7-10 years to double your money in the stock market. So between doubling your money and incremental saving, yeah you should see a pretty significant difference from 26-35. And that's before it skyrockets :)
I started my daughter investing with a custodial account at 13. She put a few hundred dollars of her money in and I convinced her by matching her investment and told her if the amount ever went below the original investment I would backstop any loss.
Investing is all about that long term gain and slow growth. Having 10 years of experience after finishing college will do so much more than Robinhood for refrigerators.
I've made a similar deal with my kids: Around 7 years ago I set up a "kid retirement" plan for them, where they couldn't touch the money until they were 18, but any money they put in I would match, and I'd also give them 10% APY with monthly compounding. My daughter aged out of it a couple years ago, she got something in the $100 range. Her brother still has a 18 months left, and I just recently rolled his over into the custodial account, he's got over a grand in there currently.
My daughter I just recently set up a ROTH for her and told her I'd match anything she puts into it, and stressed she should put something into it now from her savings, and then put some of her paycheck into it, anything is better than nothing. So far she's declined the free money. I'm going to set one up for my son, once he's at the point of having an income to justify it. She's very smart, but in some ways she's very stupid.
That young you should be investing in a 527 education account not a ROTH retirement account. Education is a much better ROI when you are young than anything else. As you get older the value of education decreases. In generally the cross over is sometime in your early/mid 20s (Could be as young as 16 if you don't do well in school, or as old as 35 for things like medical doctor)
If you don't live in the US you will have different options, but the idea still applies
I take that even a little farther. Whatever my kids make (up to the Roth limit), I give them money to put into a Roth IRA [and they can keep what they earned].
That maximizes what they (as teenagers) can put into retirement accounts, their tax rate is 0% now, and though it doesn't teach them the deferred gratification aspect, it gets their retirement savings started.
We can talk about the deferred gratification aspect in other ways and/or later, but I'd rather they get 40-60 years of tax-free growth.
Is your daughter feasibly going to make “real money” in the future? I personally look back on working a job in college as a waste of time and attempting to save money then as a waste of effort. Should have just taken more debt, the amount I did take turned out to be trivial to pay off and double or triple wouldn’t have been that bad. I feel like there are two worlds employment wise, and some advice leaks between them which ends up being maladaptive in its new environment.
I hope that @roberdam reads this and implements those into his PWA.
OP, enabling: - deposits (and withdrawals) - a matching logic (which we can do manually I guess, by doubling the deposit amount) - and correct calculation of compounding (if I had $100 for 11 months and add $100 in december, I shouldn't see the value compound $200 for the whole year)
would be great.
Bonus points if there was some kind of password (even hardcoded) so that the kids can't just click the gear icon and write themselves a blank check of $1,000,000
My dad made a deal with me that, of doubling what I would save during the week.
You say that now but as a young person with a decent income and no family or many responsibilities it's hard to even know where to start.
And I'm not even talking about what to invest in, I'm already confused at which platform/bank/whatever to do it through. The "meta", if you will. I just want to invest the 70% of my salary I don't need every month and not think about it for 40 years but how? Maybe an important detail, I'm from Switzerland, perhaps it's easier in the US with things like Vanguard.
Don't know about Switzerland, but most US brokers offer some kind of "target retirement date" fund, which automatically shifts from higher-risk assets to lower-risk as you approach retirement. VFIFX is one from Vanguard, for example. Pick one you like (just ask a coworker what they use, if you pick a big-name brokerage it really doesn't matter which one), shove your extra cash into it regularly, and forget about it. Then cross your fingers the market isn't actively crashing when you plan to retire (this is unlikely, but it does happen a couple times per century).
If you start to get into truly high wealth amounts (USD$500K+) you might consider hiring a wealth advisor, who can probably do better even after accounting for their fees.
> If you start to get into truly high wealth amounts (USD$500K+) you might consider hiring a wealth advisor
That's not nearly high enough for a "wealth advisor". Maybe a fee-only financial planner, but even then it's borderline.
Even when it crashes it's like 20% no? It's not actually that big of a deal.
My understanding is that, if the market generally continues on the rate of return it's averaged throughout its history (that is, if you're not a doomer), then the single most important thing is showing up to play.
People who try to time the market or wait for a perfect time or pick the exact right blend of stocks, on average, don't do as well as people who pick a boring index or mutual fund and forget about it for 40 years.
> People who try to time the market
If you have doubts about the long-term __existence__ of the market, then investing in the first place necessitates "timing the market" since you'll need to determine when to sell before the panic sell-off which inevitably comes before the global minimum is reached.
Mind you, I'm not talking about figuring out whether or not to "hodl" through local minima. I'm talking about rolling into a different store of value (e.g., cattle, crops, ammunition) before the whole thing goes up in smoke.
Yes, however: My father in law gave me some great advice: Pick a stock or two and put some small amount of your investments into it, like 1-5%. This makes the investing more fun. And he was very right, not the least of which because the stock I put $7K in exploded and ended up worth over $200K. ;-)
My BIL put money into Underarmor (he's an outdoors guy) and Electronic Arts (he's also a gamer), both of which have done good for him. My son put some money into Roblox (he's a gamer), and that's done well also.
All the choices you have to make can be very daunting. I was very lucky to have a colleague at work who gave a talk at the right time in my life with some plausibly right choices.
In the UK I started out using https://www.charles-stanley-direct.co.uk/ and later moved to https://www.ii.co.uk/. I initially invested in https://www.vanguardinvestor.co.uk/investments/vanguard-life... which is a fund which is available on a bunch of platforms. These days I recommend https://www.vanguardinvestor.co.uk/ to some people as an easy and low fee way of getting started with Vanguard funds in the UK.
I don't know what the best trading platform options are in Switzerland - it looks like all of the ones I'm familiar with are not relevant to you.
The key thing is you want to minimise two types of fees: * Platform fees * Product fees
For example Charles Stanley Direct charge 0.3% platform fees, and https://www.vanguardinvestor.co.uk/ charges 0.15% platform fees.
Vanguard LifeStrategy® 100% Equity Fund charges 0.22%.
The bottom line is that there are lots of good choices, and the main thing is to make a choice and get started. You can always optimise/improve your choices later.
I'm also in Switzerland, currently my approach is to invest in Vanguard VOO (tracks the S&P500) via Interactive Brokers. There is a way to setup auto transfer and invest every month
As a caveat your money will be in dollars and in American companies, which might not be what you want, but it's worked for me well so far
Are you saving for retirement or buying property? Then start filling your 3rd pillar (Säule 3a) first because of the tax cut. Ideally in a low cost provider (viac/finpension), but the bank you already have probably has an offer too. It might be a bit more expensive than viac, but still much better than not investing. Stay away from 3rd pillar at insurance companies, they might be hard to cancel. Do yourself a favor and do this just for the tax cut.
If you max out the 3a, you can start of thinking investing elsewhere. IBKR is the cheapest to buy a US domiciled world ETF. But the UX is not super easy and you will have to fill all transactions manually in the tax report.
Neon with investments is another option I can recommend if you prefer a swiss company and a simple user interface. Fees are low if you set up a savings plan and pick one of the 0% ETFs
Your bank probably has an investment platform, you can just use it, it doesn't matter. My portfolio is 70% XEQT 30% CASH.TO—don't bother with anything else.
- Your bank's platform will cost an arm and a leg; Interactive Brokers or Degiro are both available in Switzerland and you will save so much on fees (especially if you only buy and hold ETFs of which Degiro offers many with 0% fees) that it's the equivalent of faster returns on your money.
- There are many "getting started" guides available, I found Mister Money Mustache the most straightforward to my liking, but you're golden as long as you understand a couple of basics: 1. investing a high% of your income is more important than chasing returns (you seem to be there already), 2. don't trade, just buy the whole market (you mentioned Vanguard, they offer a "total market" ETF), 3. look for the lowest fees as long as you hold title to your shares (IB and Degiro do this ; eToro does not so if they sink, you're SOL), 4. don't time the market, just buy now and sit on it as it grows
For the plattforms, that also blocked me for a while. But it is easy now. You just get one account at a platform that offers a free broker account and supports buying the etf you want without extra fees.
Typical options in Europe: Trade Republic, scalable, Consors Bank.
Then the usual: Around 10K where you can access it directly, a small amount in an investment with percentage (scalable and trade republic both offer that, limit there is or was 50k), rest in one broad ETF like one that follows the FTSE all world (vanguard or invesco offer that, one is bigger, the other asks for less fees).
No affiliation, and I dont know whether being outside of the EU changes things. And yes, there is the risk that we are in a huge bubble now and it popping would at first significantly lower the money put into the etf. But you certainly do have access to vanguard etc.
Have a look now and at the latest this weekend you have this solved, hopefully forever.
Same. But is same for most people. Average American retirement savings is like $200k. I've done better that that but not by orders of magnitude.
About six years ago I was hired to make an investment simulator. I wish someone had show the results to me when I was a teen. I did show it to my daughter at the time (she was in college), and used it to explain the power of compounding interest.
I found they still an old preview online (sorry not https)
http://simulators.gibsoncapital.com/new-preview-for-total-si...
That's why you shouldn't leave it up to a kid with very little money who quite literally cannot understand the long term impacts of their decisions to invest or not. Instead, put aside something for them. You can even start well before they are 17.
Naw, dawg, Imma try and try to encourage them to get started early and put a little bit away, because it's good for them. I'm acutely afraid of a scenario where they have bad habits and anything I leave them they flush down the toilet because of those bad habits. I'm hoping to leave them plenty, but they need to be in a position to not waste that for it to be worth anything.
Yeah you can do that. Doesn't prevent you from setting something aside for them and giving it to them if and when there is a good time.
With the way housing prices are, it doesn't seem like I have an option NOT to. ;-/
> There's an awful lot of negativity here, but as someone who's 55 and has earned a good wage since I was 17, I really wish I had taken investing more seriously from the very beginning. While I knew of compound interest, I really didn't understand it until like a decade ago. If I'd started putting 5% of my money into a target retirement plan from 17, I'd be retired now. As it is I'm not doing badly, but I really wish I'd started earlier.
I'm 55, too. If I'd started studying HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Python, and Rust at 17, I'd be retired now. Waitaminnit....
Sarcasm aside, target retirement plans wouldn't come along for decades. Investing was very, very different when we were 17. And many of the people who were 55 when we were 17 had just lost a terrifying amount of their life's savings in a stock market crash that made Taleb rich because he'd bet against the market.
It seems extraordinarily unlikely that a 17-year-old today should do exactly what we wish we could have done when we were 17. About the best they can do is follow advice that's now centuries old: make friends, learn skills, live below their means, and, maybe, earn credentials.
Please share https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started with your son.
> and let him pick a couple stocks to put some money into
And yet we complain that corps today are too focused on their market valuation over everything else; customer experience, longevity, worker conditions, R&D are all being neglected in order to make the needle go up.
'Investing' in stocks in order to flip them when the price goes up is feeding this insanity. Teaching kids that this is perfectly rational seems selfish and short-sighted.
Our children should be encouraged to invest into something like bonds which actually help promote economic growth.
Teaching children to invest in bonds is spectacularly bad asset allocation. Investing in stocks or bonds both help promote economic growth.
For me, the notion of teaching kids to invest in some company they know (Disney, McDonalds, Coke, Apple, or whatever) and telling them that they are buying a tiny, tiny share of the company is an important mental model to help shape in them.
Stock picking and speculation especially with a single company is indeed a spectacularly bad strategy, but it can be a motivating start.
A well diversified fund would be the better alternative if you need to aim at a single thing. But it's hard to say what's the better first step if you're trying to teach personal finance management.
Investing in stocks and bonds both helps promote economic growth.
Corps have always been focused on their market valuation. It's up to society, and the laws it passes, to change their incentives.
Bonds returns don't match inflation so long term you're loosing money to inflation, it might be better to spend it
Actively invested retirement funds throughout 30+ years can also catch more concentrated moves if you are educated on a sector. For example, choosing the mag7 in the early 2010s vs just the SPY. Following the market could also let you pull out during serious world events.
There is definitely money left on the table when you ignore the market, even in a retirement fund.
I don't think you need a reason to invest. You should be making more money than you spend, so you might as well put the surplus to work.
Financial literacy is a gift, and absolutely omitted from standard education, which is unfortunate.
That said, I don't think knowledge of investment gets you very far if your job pays subsistence wages. I worked for a popular fintech focused on personal investment and their narrative was essentially "financial freedom through investment". I think it's important to understand that even the most sophisticated knowledge of investment and personal finance does nothing substantial if you aren't making surplus money to begin with.
I don't know what you mean by that. They teach compound interest in every school. Basic economics too. Anything more advanced is going to be lost on most kids, because that's most adults' level of financial literacy too.
The problem is many kids don't have much money to save or invest. Or if they do, real banks kinda suck when you only have a kid amount of money ("Here's the 0.2% interest on your $37 balance"). So they can't apply what they learned. An app like this, backed by the Bank of Mom and Dad, is great for practice.
While I certainly had the _concept_ of compound interest taught to me at some abstract mathematical level, the application to real life practical financial scenarios was definitely not done [1]. Economics as a whole was an optional subject.
I think schools and curriculums could do a whole lot better in representing this important facet of life. More broadly, I often feel that "applying all that math you've learned to real things" is a subject that could be taught.
[1] Seriously, having applied math questions like "Johnny earns X per year, with a cost of living of Y. Assuming inflation of Z and average yearly returns of R, what percentage should he be putting away, starting at age 25, so that at age 50 he essentially gets the equivalent of his own salary each month?" would likely cause some lightbulbs to go off in the kids' heads.
> the application to real life practical financial scenarios was definitely not done
Of course it was. You can't teach compound interest without referring to money or banks. That's the whole point of it. Otherwise it's just multiplication.
The problem is that the financial industry is, like, capitalism-maxxing.
How do you teach "financial literacy" in a practical way without referring to specific products, offerings, or corporations? You really can't.
If you talk to people about investing or retirement, they're gonna talk about Fidelity, Vanguard, whatever. Which is very practical. But I'm not so sure we need our government and education system to basically directly endorse these corporations.
My statement was intentionally under specified, and as usual my word choice was not great. My primary intention with the comment was to indicate that knowledge of investment alone is not very useful without surplus money. There is a narrative that investment alone can alleviate poverty or provide financial independence. I don't believe that's true and that was my main point.
Economics was optional in high school. It was also extremely basic. It was quite basic in college and also never covered this.
> Where do you send your money to invest?
If they had taught you that in high school 10 or 20 years years ago, it would be outdated by now. People used to save in savings accounts. Then 401ks. Then individual brokerage accounts with index funds. Now crypto or whatever is hot using some fintech app.
> What is a stock?
That's fair. It can come up in basic economics but not always.
> Financial literacy is a gift, and absolutely omitted from standard education, which is unfortunate.
With my tinfoil hat on, I feel like that is by design.
I don't think you even need to wear a tinfoil hat to reach this conclusion. Knowing about the origins of the modern outcome-based education systems in the West (we borrowed from the Prussian education system which replaced the classical education system based on the Trivium and Quadrivium) I would assert that your claim is spot on.
Probably, because everything would collapse if everyone was an "investor" and fewer people did actual work to keep the world going.
This type of investing isn't about day trading following the latest hype. It's about putting some surplus money to better use for when you need it in 10-20 years.
There are people who don't invest? Do they just keep their retirement savings in cash? I imagine for most people either the government or their employer invests for them.
If everyone was an "investor" it means they aren't blowing all their spare cash on goods and services. Demand drops and you need fewer people to work to provide said goods and services. It kinda balances out.
investment for many is more important than ever, because with home ownership out of reach younger people those with any savings are looking for alternatives. I just hope that - much like how you wouldn't buy and sell your house every day - they can resist the urge to be overly active investors.
Hi, sorry to be that guys, I just wanted to make some corrections on what you call your app a "plain html file". Your HTML file loads:
- react app - pwa manifest - tailwind css
This is not at all a "plain html" file.
is plain html different from single HTML? Because it is a single HTML that you can "Save as" and have one html with the working app.
When people talk about a single plain HTML file, it implies that all markup and code is contained in the file and no libraries are being used
That's the first thing I thought when opening it. Sure looks like a "make me an app" response that Claude would output.
I mean nothing wrong with that, I needed a silly calculator thingimabob too yesterday (for some CRC checks on a piece of text) and Claude quickly cooked something up for me.
But I'm not writing blog posts about it, releasing the tool in the wild, and claiming I wrote it. Blegh.
There’s definitely nothing wrong with it normally but then like you said it’s got the blog post and the project basically clones every calculator out there that already exists.
This type of calculator is so common you can even find one on an official US government website.
https://www.investor.gov/financial-tools-calculators/calcula...
Why apologize and do it instead of not do it and no apologize?
There’s an old story about Rothschild getting a haircut when the barber started giving him stock tips. Rothschild thanked him, left the shop, and immediately sold all his holdings. The reason was: “When even the barber is investing, the market’s gone too far.”
I might be wrong, but reading this, I couldn’t help but think: if we’ve reached the point where we’re building apps to get our kids into investing, maybe we’re living through our own “barber moment.”
The reasonable interpretation of such a project is not to pump the stock market even higher by getting children to invest their savings into it, but to inculcate the habits of investing over time so they can do it properly as adults.
I'm sure Mr. Rothschild would be fine with this learning tool.
Narrative: You are teaching about the intricacies of finance and the stock market.
Reality: Dump everything into Nvidia / S&P 500. Number go up.
The Rothschild bloodline is responsible for helping to orchestrate every modern war since the Napoleonic Wars, by loaning money to both sides of the conflict. Major General Smedley D. Butler wrote about this in War is a Racket. I personally, don't give a damn what Mr. Rothschild would be fine with, or the rest of his disgusting family.
It's certainly apocryphal and you have the British version, probably. In the US it is usually Joe Kennedy and a shoeshine boy, and also didn't likely happen. These stories are useful parables, and they serve the purpose of explaining why the smart money didn't get cleaned out when the rubes did.
Still, if a 10 year old had started investing 10% in the market in 1920 and stuck through it during the depression, even with no income coming in at the time, they would have done handsomely through the recovery and into old age. In fact, a middle aged person who had been investing until 1929 would have not been fully cleaned out, and that money would have recovered its value by 1943. Margin was what killed fortunes in the day, so the lesson to learn is to avoid margin for your investment portfolio. (Speculation is a different story).
In December 2017 I literally saw shopkeepers and barbers checking Coinbase every few minutes when they weren't with customers. I sold a substantial portion shortly afterwards. Of course I'd be much richer today if I hadn't done that. But I don't really regret it because it's not real investing; it's speculation.
Different as in much worse? It's not that you're wrong but, just to be clear, the problem with investing as the only place to keep up with inflation means that markets will detach from value, and become a giant Ponzi scheme.
There is no such thing as "growth detached from value" lasting forever.
Sure, I did that in 2018 as I was leaving London. Cabbie was talking about the coins he was buying and this and that. Bitcoin was $10k/coin at the time. I sold my bitcoin as soon as I reached Heathrow. This was a very wise move because I followed the story.
the story is about Joe Kennedy and his shoeshine boy
Greed is at a 21st century high. I am just waiting for the rugpull moment when billionaires decide the show is over (https://seekingalpha.com/news/4464647-deeper-dive-the-wealth...).
Even George Hotz understands this is the symptom of a larger issue and it is going to end bad: https://geohot.github.io/blog/jekyll/update/2025/10/24/gambl...
What is going to happen specifically when billionaires decide the show is over?
I had a very similar idea this summer. But my kids are 6 and 8, so I approached it using the video game approach. It's been an absolute smash hit and entirely altered the habits of doing chores in this home. It's been about 3 months and it's still going stronger than ever. The whole thing is a static page, driven by a Google Spreadsheet that Mom and I edit to adjust goals and track progress.
https://ibb.co/RTw5sCDJ https://ibb.co/ycRB8750 https://ibb.co/gLGQ0tKT
I wrote it in an evening so it’s disaster code. I might clean it up and make it public this holiday break.
The dailies are a minimum requirement if they want screen time.
I spent a lot of time reflecting on video game incentives and disincentives and was incredibly careful not to teach the wrong thing. The very minimum behaviour we want to enshrine as routines. Everything else is treated as a bonus. Some days they get no coins and that’s fine. Points are never taken away. Coins are spent however they want.
I made a similar thing for my adult flatmates when I was still a student. I was less 8bit and less a game, but the same priciple.
The incentive was a slight rent reduction at the end of each month.
It completely failed to motivate my friends to do more chores, but it landed me my first job.
It’s just a static hosted page they run on the family iPad. There’s no server at all!
I should really clean it up and make a blog post about it. But wanted to share it here because this project reminded me of it :)
This is such a great idea, I would love to implement this for my kids! Could you post a link to your blog or GitHub so people who want to know can follow you when/if you release it?
M dashes everywhere, bold text everywhere ... what's next, teaching them to over-rely on LLM's? And if we're teaching them about investing, can we also teach them about the ethics of investing? As in, employing a bunch of people to direct the profit of their work into the hands of investors?
For me, the ethics of investing is a bit more profound. I see stock market investment and share holding to be one of the main drivers of civilisations obsession with endless consumption and growth. To me those things are damaging to our minds and our planet. This is just doing the same retarded shit we’ve been doing since the end of the war. Personally I feel like we need to turn a corner now; ease-off this obsession with accumulating as much money as possible for ourselves and focus on our communities, our families, living in balance with nature, and securing a healthy future together with new values and goals that last. Investing into the stock market is like the opposite of this. Just my opinion.
I run a "Bank of Dad", tracked in a spreadsheet for my kids. They can choose to "invest" their money with me or not. To make investing meaningful for them, I pay 10% interest per month, up to a $50 balance.
To avoid bankrupting myself—and to encourage them to get a real investment account when the time comes—the rate drops as the balance increases, similar to progressive tax brackets. By the time they get to $1000 balance, the annualized rate works out to ~6%, and after that it drops fast enough that it's essentially free for me to operate.
Overall, it's been quite successful. Now whenever the kids get money, they invest it immediately. And they often delay or forego spending so that they can get more interest the next month. They haven't turned into complete misers, but it has encourage a mentality of thinking about saving, and I think the concept of interest has landed quite well. I think things really started to click for them around age 8 or 9.
If you're interested in doing something similar, I made a sanitized version of the spreadsheet. Feel free to copy: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1f3FgHUohw26sHuCoO40s...
These kids are going to be so mad at how low interest rates are at actual banks that I wonder if this is ultimately going to teach them to borrow rather than save. I guess it’s the same thing, really: they’re learning the time value of money either way.
When I started working at 24, a friend of mine (a few years older than me) asked me if our company had a 401(K) and what was the match.
I was confused. What's this gobbledygook? So I asked around and got him the answers, and he responded with: max out your 401(K). Just do it. And do not ever think about taking money out of it.
So I followed his advice. At that time, the ~$5500 cut in paycheck (my gross was around $35K, IIRC) stung a little. I was single, footloose and fancyfree, and those extra few hundred dollars a month would have been fun to have. But I stuck to his advice.
Today, almost 30 years later, thanks to that, I have a nice nest egg and don't have to worry about retirement (modulo catastrophic illnesses, of course).
So recently my friends' kids started working, and I gave them the same advice: Max out your 401(K), pick a Vanguard Target Retirement fund, and forget about it. If your place offers a "Mega Back Door" option, use it to the fullest extent possible. And if your company has a HDHCP, put funds in your HSA too.
We have a lot of avenues to save these days. Make full use of them.
> We have a lot of avenues to save these days.
Consider investing your time, not just your money. In other words, do careful research, start a business, then put your labor into offering a product or service that fills a need, instead of simply working for someone else. If you fail, you'll still learn a lot for another try. And if you succeed, the payoff can be much larger and faster than anything else you might attempt.
I’m in my 30s. Very very few of my friends have been able to match my tech income (and investment portfolio my tech income gave me) with their startup or local business.
Many of them are realizing how far behind they are with someone that stuck with their tech career for 15 years.
I used a lot of the money I could have 'saved for retirement' on a house instead. Given how fast housing prices have risen and the compounding issue of the cost of rents, I'm not sure I'm too far behind. If you look at REITs, which combine the value of housing appreciation with increased values of rents, they are beating stocks in general over the period I've been working.
You might actually be worse off saving for retirement, at early career stages. Of course, some will point out retirement savings are tax protected, but so are modest capital gains on primary residence.
https://i2.wp.com/financialsamurai.com/wp-content/uploads/20...
> You might actually be worse off saving for retirement, at early career stages.
A very well-diversified, international fund usually performs at 8% annually which is far more than you would get holding REITs (or worse, properties themselves). What you invest for (e.g. education, retirement, projects) is irrelevant as long as your time horizon allows for crash recoveries (measured in decades at worst and months at best).
REIT is largely a reflection of property appreciation plus rents, which is the opportunity cost of not owning your own property. The link I posted was showing an 8+% return once accounting for both over the a 20 year period that doesn't even include the recent COVID era price explosions.
> 8% annually
Historically, yes - but the last 5 year average has been ~14% (I guess it's like ~9% if you're adjusting for inflation). I think 10% is a bit of a better number these days.
That's not to say I couldn't be eating my words when the market crashes tomorrow, however.
> I act as their investment agent, assigning realistic interest rates
Author then proceeds to put 15% annual interest rate...
11% is a safe interest rate on my country (py), I just got a 14.5% offer for local bonds BBB+
stay vigilant Lebanon was granting 12% rates and everything was fine and “covered” by central bank until it wasnt
It's not an inherent feature, but they steer it in such a way so, no, there isn't (at least not for long), unless someone would make a good case for it at some point in the future
The interesting question would be what their currency, where this 11% is offered, typically loses year-on-year
Showing siblings' investment performance side-by-side on a fridge-mounted screen.
Author understands child psychology.
You can't motivate kids by filling their heads with theory. Instead, make the outcomes of their actions visible to them - then they -motivate themselves- to learn how to improve those outcomes. Add in some friendly peer-competition and you're golden!
Can they pull money out? I don't see any place to update the balance up or down as the kids want to add money into the piggy bank or withdraw it.
Nice! I also created a "virtual bank account" for my kids when they were 7-8yo. They can choose to take the weekly cash or put it in their savings account. My bank gives them a 5% interest rate per month, which isn't bad. Explaining the idea of compound interest this way is easy.
However, I think that's the easier part of being an investor. The more complicated part is risk management. With a savings account, there is basically zero risk. But that's not how you invest these days.
5% per month? Where is this crazy money generator? Assume you meant per year here!
It's not zero risk:
- Your currency may collapse, see Germany 1930s, Argentina, Zimbabwe, Venezula, etc.
- Only a certain figure is protected in savings, though governments will act aggressively to protect that (see 2008 + the Icelandic/UK/Dutch palava)
Yes, it's 5% per month. You wouldn't be able to explain the concept of a yearly compound interest rate to such young children. One year is an eternity in their life. I also don't give them too much pocket money to encourage them to save. They would spend it on junk food if they had too much cash.
A agree, that the currency is not a 100% safe investment. Inflation especially makes it bad for long-term savings. Indeed, money in any savings account is insured only up to a certain amount. However, that's not something you can explain to kids with a "virtual account." I suppose the idea that Daddy's bank will go bankrupt is probably not an ideal way to teach kids financial literacy.
There's an awful lot of negativity here, but as someone who's 55 and has earned a good wage since I was 17, I really wish I had taken investing more seriously from the very beginning. While I knew of compound interest, I really didn't understand it until like a decade ago. If I'd started putting 5% of my money into a target retirement plan from 17, I'd be retired now. As it is I'm not doing badly, but I really wish I'd started earlier.
So I say: Good on you.
Somewhat related: I just got my son set up with a custodial account and put his "kid retirement" plan into it, and let him pick a couple stocks to put some money into, and put the majority of it into target retirement and a few stocks and EFTs, so he can get some ideas of how they perform, make it a little fun with picking things he's into, and also follow ups and downs of the market, all of which I think is good education.