Comment by latexr 2 days ago
> To keep your job and avoid conflict, you must "mask." Masking means hiding your natural habits and feelings, while imitating the social behaviors that coworkers expect.
Why do both eating a proper breakfast and skipping breakfast affect your masking negatively? No one is around, what difference does it make?
Okay, but isn't this just what all people do? Everyone has a lifetime of normal behavior expectations reinforced to a point where they are truly internalized that there's something wrong with not doing the "normal" thing.
That's called enculturation.
I find a lot very confusing about the idea of masking. Everyone masks, even people who are more neurotypical than autists. Getting along with social life means not showing every emotion, it means being uncomfortable, doing things that you personally dislike or find uncomfortable, feigning more comfort in social situations than you actually feel, regulating your behavior to fit in, etc. And then going home to detox and restore your energy with private time.
I'm not saying that masking is autism is not a thing. But most of what I hear described is just ... normal life for most people ... except perhaps to the degree it is felt or needed.
Most of the challenges of autism are also present in neurotypical just to a lesser degree. No one likes annoying loud sounds but to someone with autism the limit is going to be much lower. No one likes sudden changes but someone with autism won’t be able to handle them as easily. And so on.
I'm sure most people mask, but the difference between neurotypical and neurodivergent people is how much they mask, and when.
For instance, like many people on the spectrum, I feel discomfort making any form of direct eye contact. When I don't have a lot of mental energy, this discomfort can become quite intense, to the point that maintaining normal eye contact takes up so much mental effort that I can't listen to what someone is saying anymore.
I don't exactly have the "normal" experience to compare with, but I don't believe most people experience that. I've learned the hard way that people don't really appreciate it when you stare at the floor during the entire conversation, so forcing myself to make eye contact has become more automatic over the years, but it adds just a little bit of extra effort on top of what everyone else is feeling.
Sometimes, it's also other tiny issues. Deviations from how things "should be" can trigger an irrational feeling of upsetting. As a kid I remember crying about a door being painted, or the class using a different set of stairs to the normal route because deep down it felt extremely wrong. Even in my teens, having fries on a Tuesday was something I sometimes needed to recover from. I've learned to dismiss/ignore/crop up those irrational feelings, but sometimes they can sneak up on you and become quite taxing. The worst part, in my opinion, is how the mental impact remains despite knowing how absolutely bonkers those feelings are.
I believe I'm not affected as strongly by my autism as some other unfortunate souls are, because people seem somewhat surprised when they learn about stuff like that. I can only imagine how stressful their daily lives must be.
> normal life for most people ... except perhaps to the degree it is felt or needed
Well, yes, precisely. Almost everyone can relate to experiencing mild or moderate back pain for a couple of days when they sleep in a weird position, but some people have chronic back pain that makes life unbearable without prescription pain killers.
While talking to people about my ADHD in real life I noticed that many of them speak like they understand ADHD. Even when I try to explain in more detail they come really close to "getting it" by superficially relating to some of the ADHD symptoms, but unfortunately almost all of them end up taking the logical leap to say that "everyone deals with this" and start recommending "solutions".
Most people will never understand ADHD just like I don't truly understand what life is like for people with chronic pain, and that's fine.
People seem to at least conceptually understand that chronic pain = pain like they know it + much worse + never-ending, which they recognize as being awful. The thing that bothers me is that when it comes to ADHD (and autism) the calculation suddenly becomes ADHD = concentration problems they experienced + exaggeration + lack of discipline.
ADHD is relentless, it follows you everywhere, you can take many months off from work for stress relief and it will still be there (I tried). You can make sure to sleep well, eat well, exercise, avoid all stressors, focus on hobbies that make you happy and it'll still be there.
People juggle sleep deprivation, stressful job and/or kids, socializing, chores, appointments on a daily basis and say that concentration problems are normal, and yes, of course they are if you're overloading yourself like that. But many people with ADHD experience those (and much more) at our baseline and if I tried to achieve half of what other people achieve on a daily basis, I would burn myself out in under a month.
Some people might read this and think that this I'm an outlier but I think I'm pretty average as far as ADHD severity goes, I managed to finish university before struggling to keep up outside of highly structured environments, and ultimately getting diagnosed with ADHD as an adult.
I'm currently on Elvanse and it's a far cry from being a fix or a cure, but it makes things more manageable. My concentration on work that I find stimulating has always been alright so that hasn't changed much, I'm slightly less distractible during boring work, but it's been most helpful in other areas of executive functioning like task initiation.
For example at home I usually knew which chores needed to be done, and I desperately wanted to do them but I could never get started because I didn't have enough willpower. I would procrastinate for weeks or even months while constantly beating myself up over it.
I still don't enjoy chores, nobody does, but with medication I have noticeably more willpower to get started on things that need to be done. The thought of folding laundry, a task which I always knew would take me no longer than 5 minutes, no longer overwhelms me with dread and I end up doing it in a "reasonable" amount of time (reasonable for me, plenty of people would find it unreasonable if we lived together).
They could be if your options are “skip breakfast or eat something insane for breakfast because your brain and body crave it and it’s all you can manage to get yourself to eat if you are gong to eat.”
Think about how you might react if you were talking with someone about what they had for breakfast today and they answered “a bag of cotton candy and a beer”. That’s really weird right? Like you might be concerned about them for making that choice right? And what if on other days you notice that they’re a bit grumpier or more tired and they admit to not eating breakfast on those days. Now imagine over a few months you come to realize that your co-worker is either always skipping breakfast despite how it affects them, or they’re eating a bag of cotton candy and a beer. You’d probably be really concerned for them. You might even in an attempt to be helpful and supportive try and help them have better breakfasts, maybe even bring in some bagels (even though they always decline). This is an extreme example of course but for some autistic people, they will go through phases were if they eat they can only eat very specific things and those things aren’t going to be “normal”. During that time, the decision to eat or not to eat and the decision for what to eat are extremely fraught things because very well meaning and well intentioned people find the decisions being made odd and feel like they need to “help”. But if you don’t want the help (or worse if you know you should be doing something different but your mind will make you physically ill if you do) all that “help” is really just another stressor on top of everything else.
This is because autistism advocacy groups misuse the word mask. It is supposed to refer to extra work you have to do playing a specific persona. E.g. at a party pretending to be a character from a movie or a book. And especially trying to force yourself to become that persona to fit in.
A lot of people in the advocacy space use it to mean basic things like being well behaved or being nice to people. Everybody has to be well-behaved at work. Everybody has to consider the feelings of others etc.
The idea of "wearing a mask" in the sense of being polite is older than the notion of masking in autism. For example, P. G. Wodehouse used it a few times in the 1920s to refer to the social expectations made on aristocratic families. E.g. from 1922:
> I didn’t like the chap, but we Woosters can wear the mask. I beamed a bit.
In this sense everyone masks. In fact they mask almost all the time from the time they get up until maybe the time they go to bad. Masking in autism originally referred to something different that was specific to autism.
The way it's used now it essentially just means "it's harder for me to fit in." Which is true but doesn't tell you anything about autism from a psychological point of view beyond the obvious fact that it's harder for us to fit in.
> people in the advocacy space use it to mean basic things like being well behaved or being nice to people
Thank you for this comment. As a family member of a young AuDHD person I am continually battered by a combination of their behavior (which directly and un-ignorably degrades the experience of everyone around) and by various 'advocacy' ideas that use phrasing like that to not-so-subtly imply that it's actually our bad for daring to expect to "not be hit," or to not be forced to constantly base our whole lives on one person's preferences, etc.
It's tough sometimes to figure out what's real, what's a fair expectation, what's something that can be learned/unlearned, and what's just inevitable.
Some kids are just really wild by temperament and it shows up in their first year or two on the Earth.
Short of breaking their spirit there's not much the parents can do to make them less wild. Parents have to try to find a way to let the kid be wild and feel good about being a temperamentally wild kid while also recognizing that there are limits and boundaries. A similar experience is perhaps owning a dog that needs to run around outside every day.
But nothing in the autism or ADHD diagnoses says you can't learn social skills or that they shouldn't. Nor does it require anyone to endure abuse or physical attacks.
Assuming you're not the parent (since you say the more generic "family member"), probably the best thing you can do is try to befriend this kid and learn a bit about what's like to be them. And try to find traits in yourself that help you see why they act one way or another.
Another thing to keep in mind is that things you take for granted may be very distressing to this person. They may be able to hear noises or smell smells or taste flavors that you can't. The parents have a tough job because nobody wants their kid's preferences to dictate everything, but nobody wants to knowingly make their kid distressed when they can help it. That becomes a tough tradeoff when you have someone who is easily distressed by a world that isn't really designed with their brains in mind. This is where things like earplugs and sunglasses can help. It's a bit like being hungover all the time. If you reduce the sensory input everyone becomes less irritable and more even keel.
Having had personal experience with this problem, there is actually a simple but difficult solution to your problem:
Focus in the effect if the person's action on you, and set hard boundaries for yourself.
Note that boundaries are in this specific form:
"If you do X in Y situation, I will do Z"
The consequence to the instigating person (the Z part) is important. The person you described likely has a deficit in empathy, so feedback on actions has to happen to modify behavior.
Note that I'm not saying to hit back. Consequences are generally best when withdrawing something of value than adding something of negative value.
For example: "If we're watching a movie and you are physically rowdy, you will have to leave the living room and entertain yourself in your room".
Focua on how things affect you, and what actions you can take in response to boundary breaking behavior. Then be ruthlessly firm and consistent about it.
I've mentioned to relevant people a couple of times in the past that I generally feel like I am "acting" in most social situations. Like I have an idea as to who/how I need to be in that moment and act accordingly. I'm used to it and it's not really something very conscious in the moment, but if the event lasts a long time it gets kind of draining since you have parallel tracks going - reading the room, predicting what reaction someone expects at any time, issuing that reaction, etc. It's not that I don't enjoy the events, but I can "fill up" on interaction quickly and want to go home early to recharge.
I figured that was just being an introvert.
I'm glad you posted. When I hear masking described like it is in this simulator: "To keep your job and avoid conflict, you must "mask." Masking means hiding your natural habits and feelings, while imitating the social behaviors that coworkers expect.", I always think, "isn't that just life?" If I didn't hide my natural habits I wouldn't be going to work at all. If I didn't hide my feelings I would yell at the person in the office next to me for listening to some webinar through their computer speakers and their door open. If I didn't imitate the social behaviors that coworkers expect I wouldn't wish the person I barely know happy birthday.
I mean, the thing about autism is that your 'natural behaviours and feelings' can be things that others find deeply offputting, like hand-flapping or other strange repetitive movements or sounds, anxious skin-picking, avoiding eye contact etc. But not doing those things requires conscious effort, because they're natural to you.
So it's kind of like going through social interactions with an itch that you're constantly aware of but can't scratch. Or perhaps for a neurotypical person, imagine that you're instead not allowed to make any facial expressions or change in your tone of voice and you have to constantly monitor yourself to make sure you're not doing what is, to you, a normal and unconscious reaction. Of course everyone has to modulate their tone of voice and expression to some degree, but with autistics the gap between how they'd behave 'naturally' and 'what is considered socially acceptable' can be a much bigger one to bridge.
An analogy I’ve heard that I like is that the difference is akin to the difference between the “act” you put on for work, and the “act” you would put on for a high stakes job interview. Both are “just” normal proper business behavior but one is much more exhausting and if you had to do that later every day, all day, that would be a huge drain on you.
It’s a bit different though. If you have autism you might not even want to wish your friend or family member happy birthday. Whereas for neurotypical I think they would normally enjoy doing that.
Or you might not want to say hello or goodbye in the normal situations they are used. Or small talk. These are all things many neurotypical enjoy.
Yeah I like to think of it as active roleplaying instead of having to put in an effort. Most people have to put in some effort in social situations, heck I catch myself saying unproductive things to my partner if I slip completely into passive mode.
If you feel like this, you may be on the spectrum (not an insult btw).
Masking for neuro typical people is very easy, even if emotionally draining. My wife is the perfect example - her personality is to be nice to everyone and to connect with people. A lot of times this leads to prolonged conversations with people, which then she complains about, but its basically like saying you are tired after going on a long bike ride - there is some enjoyment in the activity.
Whereas for neuro-spicy people, masking is the equivalent of spilling seeds on the floor and having to pick up each one with tweezers to put them back. Its both exhausting and not enjoyable.
I wouldn't even say its less effort. Its a whole different kind of effort. A social neurotypical person willingly engages in interactions and "masks". A person on the spectrum only engages because they have to.
It's true that different people require different amounts of effort to do and approach it with different tactics, but fundamentally almost nobody streams their inner monologue straight out of their lips, and I think when it does happen is actually much more associated with TBI and inhibition disregulation than ASD. (Which is not to say that it doesn't require a different approach or more effort for those with ASD.)
Yes, it's performing tasks in software that most people perform in hardware.
Yeah this is a thing that gets me. Everyone has to mask because otherwise there'd be a more conflict over shit that doesn't matter then there likely already is during meetings and stuff.
Some of the messaging too is just... off-putting/patronizing. "Brave the grocery store"? I know social situations can be tough on people but it's not you're being asked to kill the chicken and process it or grow the veggies. Is resiliency so low that it's a battle to go pick up necessities?
Maybe I was blessed to grow up in a poor, not exactly stable household at least for a while.
It's harder than you think.
- Go into a bright, commercial space
- All the packets are "shouting" at you with colorful labels
- There is noise of shoppers, a PA system, canned music and/or advertising
- Navigate lots of social interactions with other shoppers around navigating asiles, manouvering carts, who picks what
- Manage a shopping list and find a variety of goods
- Go to the check-out asile. Hopefully you can avoid interacting with a human
- Manage packing bags and paying
- Hopefully noone talks to you as you leave
_Thank_ you. I'm seeing a LOT of people in this thread who do not understand autism at _all_ and yet claim it's really not much different than neurotypical people's experience.
"Why should x situation be like y difficulty? I don't understand."
"No, you _don't_ understand, because you're not autistic. Which isn't really an insult but it is the case. So why you gotta brush off our struggles like you do get it."
Being autistic is exhausting on a _whole different level_. It is NOT comparable to neurotypicals' experiences except superficially.
For anyone who feels this way about the grocery store, I'd highly recommend curbside pickup or online ordering. Some stores are getting rid of it, but plenty still offer it. If you live in a large enough city, grocery delivery can also pretty competitive in pricing if you're willing to negotiate on brands.
You can fix bright and loud.
Shouldn't a list be a positive here?
What's bad about "packing bags and paying", with "paying" being separate from human interaction? I'm genuinely curious.
Anxiety is not a rational thing, in the same way a friend of the family who had OCD would lambast me about the "particles" my outside shoes and the hems of my pants could bring inside all the while ignoring the giant stack of molding dishes in the sink.
It's a feeling in the body, a sense of alarm. That sinking pit of adrenaline.
I don't think I have autism but I do get ptsd type stuff occasionally.
Interesting observation in the last bit, research indicates links between PTSD and symptons often associated with autism: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/ptsd-and-autism/. That said, PTSD is treatable to a point, if you can verbalise what situations or what experiences cause your ptsd type stuff, treatments like EMDR may help for you.
I'm not sure I disagree that anxiety isn't rational. Anxiety about certain topics may be less rational, but being too anxious to sleep alone in the dark in the jungle likely has some evolutionary benefits. Similar with the anxiety at seeing large predatory animals or the lack of food leading into winter. It becomes a dysfunction when the anxiety is caused by everyday innocuous things to the general public.
You kinda sound like a macho asshole. None of those has anything to do with "toughening up" or growing up in an unstable household. It's like you didn't read the article or any comments here and felt the need to blast your insecurities out into open?
"Why do people need the wheelchair ramp? Is resiliency so low nowa days? Are people lazy?" Lol
Calling this an issue of resiliency is completely missing the point about autism. I recommend you do some more reading because it has nothing to do with resiliency. People on the spectrum can have incredible resiliency in certain activities that neurotypical people couldn't (for example, hyper focus on a very complex cognitive task or dedicate hours of "boring" repetitive practice in a physical activity).
I think lots of people on the spectrum would gladly grow vegetables or kill chickens over having to go to the grocery store. Tolerance levels on activities placing you in highly social situations with overwhelming stimuli can be significantly lower for people on the spectrum.
Someone above this said the boxes in a grocery store are "shouting" at them with their bright colors. I know autism has varying levels but like, I sincerely worry about their ability to live if looking a box is causing a truly remarkable level of distress.
> hyper focus on a very complex cognitive task or dedicate hours of "boring" repetitive practice in a physical activity
That's awesome, take that win for sure that it's easier for them to do that and if one would rather go farm than take place in society then I think that's a fantastic goal to work toward.
> I sincerely worry about their ability to live if looking a box is causing a truly remarkable level of distress.
It’s sort of built into the definition of a disorder that otherwise normal stressors or negative pressures have an outsized and excessive impact on the person with the disorder relative to what it would be if they didn’t have the disorder.
Think of it like this, if I punch you as hard as I can in your leg, that might hurt quite a bit and make you favor your leg for a few hours. But if you have a broken leg and I do the same thing it’s going to be much worse for you and you won’t recover nearly is quickly. The input hasn’t changed, only the underlying condition that amplifies the results of that input.
And if you had a broken leg and I did punch you as hard as I could, no one would really be “worried for your ability to live” if you complained that my doing that ruined your ability to function today and tomorrow. Because of course it did, you have a broken leg.
Same idea here. Autism makes the inputs excessively intense. The only difference is se expect your broken leg to eventually heal, and we generally don’t go around punching people in their legs. But autism doesn’t heal and we do live in a word of intense advertising and flash in an attempt to grab your attention.
That is an excellent point. As an autistic person I would happily kill and clean chickens every meal . If it meant not feeling like a panic attack every trip to the store .
Is it that common to upset people at work and have absolutely no clue why or how or what you’ve done?
And not from a lack of trying, and definitely not because you don’t care?
Because to me, that’s what masking means: constantly checking yourself because you do care, and you do like people, and the last thing you ever want to do is hurt or upset someone, and yet sometimes you do, and that sucks, and you learn from it, file it away in your mind for next time, and wake up the next day with the same happy-go-lucky optimism you do every day until the world beats it out of you.
Its a bit of a misnomer.
Skipping breakfast reduces the caloric energy you have. Eating a full breakfast is basically going against your instinct. Optimal thing for autistic people would be a energy bar that is both healthy, has good texture, and makes you feel full.
The game puts the "masking" definition right in the start page, no need to deduce. I also dislike how any form of self care reduces your masking even if you're alone.
It's designed to make you lose in a couple of days, which would imply you're not a highly functional autist, and hence I wonder how the heck did you get a job without others noticing your autism?
Like I said, implication is a bit weird.
For example, self care with video games would be different. I think the author was just trying to demonstrate that self care in the normal sense isn't the same to spectrum folks
I don't enjoy having a full breakfast before work, but I usually still do, otherwise I'd be hungry before lunchtime. It's one of the thousands of little compromises we all make every day, I'm not really sure how this constitutes masking, or I'm not understanding the term correctly.
I was surprised to find that skipping my medication which causes drowsiness instantly caused my energy to crash to zero and lose the game. I think this is well intentioned but weirdly designed.
If I don't eat in the morning, I have extremely low energy and am very cranky.
That makes it harder to mask, because the decisions I would make with low energy and crankiness are not the same ones I would make if I had eaten. It impacts my ability to converse with others in an effective way.
It also impacts my work output and mood..
This is a really interesting aspect of masking. The thing is, it's often not the direct presence of external scrutiny that drives the feeling of needing to mask, it's a lifetime of having normal behaviour expectations reinforced to a point where they truly internalised that there's something wrong with not doing the "normal" thing. So they will even be masking in private and have to go to great lengths to even discover where they are doing that and proactively "undoing" their private masking in order to allow them to restore energy during their own private time.
All this is often referred to under the notion of "internalised ableism".