Comment by mediaman

Comment by mediaman 7 days ago

396 replies | 2 pages

A lot of people don't know what this Section 174 is about, so here's a brief explainer.

Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit.

Section 174 says you can't do this for software engineers. If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" an "expense", regardless of the fact that you paid them.

What you've actually done, Congress said, is bought a capital good, like a machine. And for calculating tax owed, you have to depreciate that over several years (5 in this case).

Depreciating means that if you pay an engineer $200k in a year, in tax-world you only had $40k of real expense that year, even though you paid them $200k.

So the effect is that it makes engineers much more expensive, because normally when a company hires an engineer, like they spend on any other expense, they can at least think "well, they will reduce our profit, which reduces our tax obligation," but in this case software engineers are special and aren't deductible in the same way.

In the case of the $200k engineer, you deduct the first $40k in the first year, then you can expense another $40k from that first year in the second year, the third $40k in the third year, and so on through the fifth year. So eventually you get to expense the entire first year of the engineer's pay, but only after five years.

The effect is that companies wind up using their scarce capital to loan the federal government money for five years, and so engineers become a heavy financial burden. If a company hires too many engineers, they will owe the federal government income tax even in years in which they were unprofitable.

These rules, by the way, don't apply to other personnel costs. If you hire an HR person or a corporate executive, you expense them in the year you paid them. It's a special rule for software engineers.

It was passed by Congress during the first Trump administration in order to offset the costs of other corporate tax rate cuts, due to budgeting rules.

bunnie 7 days ago

I keep seeing an objection in this thread along the lines of "what make software so special that it deserves a tax deduction".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a company hires someone to say, mine coal or brew beer, the expense of those employees is an expense any company can claim a full tax deduction on. If you're a line chef or wait tables, your salary is tax deductible to the restaurant.

So it's not that we are asking for R&D to be treated "specially" and get a deduction that other companies don't have. The problem is that R&D salary expense is being singled out as producing an asset (e.g. IP), and thus being classified in the same category as other assets, like, brewing equipment, a mining excavator, or a pizza oven. Simply put, Section 174 argues to classify people in the same category as things because ... 'these people's work outputs may have long-term value, kind of like things'(?).

Allowing Sec 174 to stand is a slippery slope to classifying more and more everyday Americans' salaries into this category. One could argue in the future, for example, that those who design cars or operate machines to produce tooling dies, should not have their labor treated as regular expenses, but instead as capital assets because their labor output is captured in assets, just as Sec 174 treats the labor of software developers as assets. Everyday people should be concerned by this because if the rule stands, it could be extended to you, too.

For those objecting to the equal treatment of R&D employees as all other employees in America of all stripes and vocations, keep in mind that software people have to pay personal taxes on the income, just like everyone else. Section 174 doesn't have anything to do with personal income taxes: we all pay income taxes fair and square. The question is whether there is a double-tax on software labor, paid at the corporate level (and in all likelihood, your salary is currently a tax deduction for your company, unless you write software or do R&D).

I think the assumption that we are asking for "special treatment" is driving some confusion and grass-roots objection to the movement here, so I wanted to highlight that we are just asking for everyday people who work software and other R&D jobs to be treated just like every other American who works a day job.

[edits for clarity]

  • rayiner 6 days ago

    > Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a company hires someone to say, mine coal or brew beer, the expense of those employees is an expense any company can claim a full tax deduction on. If you're a line chef or wait tables, your salary is tax deductible to the restaurant.

    The question is: are you getting the value of that work in the same tax year, or is it creating an asset that creates value over time? If you hire a guy to brew a batch of beer, you’re getting the value with that batch of beer. Once you sell that beer, the value is gone.

    But if a brewery hires someone to build a fermentation system, then that person’s salary cost must be allocated to capital expenses that must be depreciated over time.

    There’s a good argument that most software development is creating an asset that pays off over time. If you hire someone to upgrade the payroll software, you’ll get the value of that in future tax years.

    • thayne 6 days ago

      But in that case, once the fermentation system is built, the brewery no longer needs that employee.

      A better analogy is a brewery hires someone who builds a fermentation system, then continues to operate, maintain, repair, and improve the system over time. Some of the employee's time is spent on work that could probably considered R&D, some of it is on work that is clearly operation, and some isn't clearly one or the other. So how do you determine how much of the worker's salary is R&D vs operational expense? You can try and estimate some percentage, but that breakdown is at best an educated guess, and having to try and figure that out just adds pointless friction.

      But that still isn't a great analogy, because in that case the fermentation system isn't the product, the beer is. So for a company that sells software, it would be more like if it wasn't a company that sold brew, but a company that rented out or sold its brewing equipment to other companies that made beer.

      Also, the same argument about creating value that pays off over time could be said about most employees. An accountant could find a more efficient way to keep the books that pays off over years; the CEO could create a strategy that pays off over years; customer service staff could create a reputation for high quality customer service that pays off over years; etc.

      And then, even if you assume that an engineer's salary is entirely R&D, then the only reason I can see to want that salary taxed at a higher rate is if you want to disincentivize R&D. R&D is already a large expense now in the hopes of a payoff later, and by increasing the tax burden now, you are making that upfront cost even higher.

      • nrmitchi 6 days ago

        How about actors? They produce a thing (content) that is sold for a prolonged period of time. Copyright is what, 20 years?

        How would Disney feel if the salary paid to the cast of the Avengers was no longer an expense in that year, but amortized over the entire copyright period of the film.

        • kgwgk 6 days ago

          That’s how it used to be until a special rule was introduced allowing only $15m (or maybe $20m) to be expensed instead of capitalized.

          Doesn’t change much for the Avengers films which have production costs around $500m. Disney still has to capitalize 97% of the cost. $15m doesn’t cover a single star’s salary.

      • saltcured 6 days ago

        How does a chef get categorized? They develop recipes which have future value but also do a lot of ephemeral work product.

        I think the issue is this fantasy that a software develop only produces long term IP. Or how is it different from an executive who is developing strategy and market positions that have future value?

        Maybe it would make sense if we could distinguish such work products as a fraction of their total output, tracked as actual inventory that accountants have to assign value and track capital gains on?

        • rayiner 6 days ago

          I think the fantasy is that software is mostly like inventing the transistor. Most software is CRUD apps that are more akin to a company’s profit-generating physical infrastructure.

      • rayiner 6 days ago

        Repair and maintenance costs can be either operational expenses or capital expenses: https://www.nashadvisory.com.au/resource-centre/repairs-and-...

        For example, if you pay for someone to maintain the brewery plant to keep it working in its current condition, that’s an operational expense that could immediately be deducted. But if the work is on upgrades and improvements, that’s ordinarily would be a capital expense that must be capitalized and depreciated. A bookkeeping strategy isn’t.

        Your other examples are off the mark, because the question is whether the investment produces an income-producing asset. Software generally is such an asset. The question of what’s an operational expense versus what’s a capital expense isn’t always clear cut, and is the kind of thing where accountants and tax lawyers have to make judgment calls.

        • spwa4 4 days ago

          Both cases are tax-deductible, what matters is not whether it's operational or capital, because for example building up inventory would make an operational expense a capital expense, but whether you then sell or rent/lease/use yourself/... what's maintained or repaired (then it's COGS) or you use it yourself (then it needs to be amortized)

          The tax code has been optimized by the rich over the past century to extract profits out of industrial firms and that's where the difference comes from. $100 used to, say, produce a car or a cake that you then sell is immediately and fully deductible from tax because otherwise industrial companies just outright can't survive. Hell, you get to claim back/not pay any VAT and/or sales tax you paid for anything related to them. One way to see it is that these rules are designed to get money to the (existing, "old-money") rich, so when investors don't get money, the government doesn't get money.

          If it's equipment for the company to use itself, then it has to be amortized, or more to the point, it means industrial companies can't do what Amazon did: use 100% of their free tax flow to grow "tax-free*" instead having to give that money to the government and investors (15-35% to government 65-85% to the rich, sorry, investors), so they can use it for their own ends.

          I'm not judging one to be good or bad, just attempting to frame this correctly. I should perhaps point out, as a last point, that this is a massive difference between the US and European countries. In Europe, investors and governments try to have their cake and eat it too: there's tax due (amortization rules, or worse) on new company creation, on company growth, except of course, for the companies of the rich: you can grow financial capital in companies without paying a cent, money, shares, obligations, ..., just nothing else. That's yet another connection to the rich, to investors. New employees, new buildings, ... are double taxed, only money isn't. In Europe, there have only ever been exceptional cases where it was otherwise. In the US "tax-free" new company creation has been the norm for all of history except since Trump changed this rule.

          * between quotes because they still have to pay income tax on any wages, sales tax on any purchases, ... it is very far from tax-free, but such companies wouldn't pay a dime to investors. If they did that would make it very hard to create new companies (which is what this regulation does). Amazon's great accomplishment is not AWS or anything like that but 2 financial accomplishments: first, avoid sales tax, second, avoid paying anything to investors. Whatever business Amazon is in is nothing but a tool for that financial engineering.

      • [removed] 6 days ago
        [deleted]
    • hosh 6 days ago

      The difference between a fermentation system and software is that right now, software changes fast enough that five years is a long time.

      While there are software that are still in use from five years ago, there are plenty of obsolete software no one is still using made five years ago.

      • rayiner 6 days ago

        The tax code accounts for that by providing different depreciation schedules for different kinds of assets. For software the catch-all depreciation schedule is 3 years: https://www.irs.gov/publications/p946.

        • hosh 5 days ago

          Is 3 years reasonable?

          If we are making say, a point-of-sale software rolled out in a fast food franchise (let’s take Chick-fil-A since they have edge Kubernetes deployments), is it reasonable that we won’t add features to that software in 3 years? Perhaps.

          What about bug fixes? Is that expense or should we expect time spent on bug fixes to also be depreciated in 3 years?

          What about configuration? Does configuring that POS for new menu items count as software development, and therefore needs to be depreciated over the next 3 years?

          Chick-fil-A has edge Kubernetes. Does the install and implementation itself counts as “R&D”? If we argue that configuration can be expensed, then would writing manifests be depreciable or not? What if we use “infrastucture as code” tools such as Chef?

          What about say, excel sheets and macros? Or forget macros — just basic use of a spreadsheet. Some manager add in a summation to a column to compute totals. Very basic stuff. Is that software development? If it is, would that be depreciated over 3-years?

          If we argue that this is normal use of excel and should not be depreciated, then why wouldn’t my normal use of a compiler and editor also count as normal use and should not be depreciated?

          Whether it is 5 years or 3 years, the point is that unlike physical capital goods, software changes very fast, even if the underlying hardware wasn’t changing that fast. It is not always that expert designers build them — software can also be written in a way where end users modify them. We also use software to make software, and can rapidly change our tooling in a way that we cannot with physical capital equipment.

          I see the merit in categorizing software as capital, from an economic theory point of view, but software also has its own dynamic that is distinct from physical capital equipment. A tax code that does not acknowledge that can bring more overall harms to the society.

    • iczero 6 days ago

      Software engineering is not just about building new things. I'd propose that by far the majority of the time of software engineers is spent on maintenance, bug fixing, minor incremental improvements, etc. Almost all software is either sold directly as a service or as a product with a servicing agreement.

      > most software development is creating an asset that pays off over time

      This is a fantasy.

    • MichaelZuo 6 days ago

      Yeah this is the most plausible interpretation.

      Software engineers being taxed similar to brewery design engineers seems reasonable, not the person literally brewing each batch of beer.

      • daxfohl 6 days ago

        What about oncall? What about fixing bugs, or KLO, or security patches, or devops, or tweaking feature flags, or dealing with customers?

        If you're 100% allocated to a greenfield project that's behind closed doors until 2027, sure. But it doesn't seem like most software engineers are in that bucket. If anything, the industry has been consistently moving further away from that, with more agile methods, tighter feedback loops, etc.

      • crimsonpowder 6 days ago

        I don't understand the reasoning behind this, however. Why depreciate anything over multiple years vs just deducting it in the current year? Does it not all come out to the same amount to the IRS in the end?

    • [removed] 6 days ago
      [deleted]
    • kelnos 6 days ago

      If I hire a bunch of people to build me an apartment building, I deduct the full cost of their salaries in the year I pay them, even though once they build the apartment building, I get the value of that work over the following years.

      How is that any different from hiring a bunch of people to write some software, that I then get the value of over the following years?

    • anon946 6 days ago

      How are other kinds of engineers such as automotive engineers treated at companies like Ford, or aerospace engineers such as at Boeing?

  • Plasmoid2000ad 6 days ago

    This wasn't my first impression of this, but the more I heard this dicussed the more I'm forming an opinion that there might be some intentional parts of this that while maybe not being good, make sense from a certain narrow perspective.

    My assumption is, if tax folks in the US were looking Jealously at US companies with large Multinational presence declaring a lot of their profits abroad. They might have noticed that some of them have large dev presence in US, but through complex accounting, IP transfers, licensing and other actions are able to claim that majority of the value is generated outside of the US.

    If a company had, say, 100k software devs, 50k in the US, and 50k scattered across other countries, but claimed the value of it's software was primarily in Puerto Rico and Ireland... In that case, I'd expect questions around the 50k devs in the US.

    Is software dev the only activity where this is possible - no, but is currently by the far the largest and the largest growth industry.

    • rbultje 6 days ago

      If the issue is with general tax compliance of large multinationals, then congress should have done something about that. This tax rule has hit small software businesses particularly badly, so much so that it'll practically strengthen the quasi-monopoly of established players.

      • echelon 6 days ago

        > strengthen the quasi-monopoly of established players.

        When are we going to break the majors up already? Google should be like seven different companies. YouTube is bigger than Netflix for Christ's sake.

        Demand antitrust enforcement!

        There's so much value pent up and wasted in Google today that it'll be worth more as divisible parts. They're practically giving half of the value away for free and wasting it on implementing the same thing four times before cancelling it.

        And Apple and Amazon...

        These giants are basically stifling the US startup ecosystem and putting a valuation cap on innovation. They're also ripping apart other industries by moving in and undercutting costs with subsidized offerings detached from the underlying economics. They're like invasive species destroying the ecosystem, eating up everything, completely immune to competition. And if that's not reason enough for you, they're putting massive wage pressure on our profession.

      • lores 6 days ago

        Oh, no! Anyways. /Congress, probably

      • busterarm 6 days ago

        Small business software has largely been offshoring their development teams for years anyway.

        For a long while now, every small US-based company I look at hiring engineers have their teams in South America or Eastern Europe.

    • echelon 6 days ago

      Unfortunately by trying to "fix" this, they've caused massive US software developer layoffs. So even less tax revenues. And an even weaker economy.

      • wfh 6 days ago

        Has this tax change been mentioned in any earnings calls as a reason for layoffs. Perhaps if that evidence could be found it would bolster the argument being made here. Didn't someone have all earnings call transcripts in a large database - perhaps an AI can find evidence of this?

      • owlstuffing 6 days ago

        While this modification may contribute to layoffs, the general declining economy is the real culprit — the layoffs started long before the tax code change.

    • LorenPechtel 5 days ago

      There is some sense to this: It's a stealth tax increase done for budgetary reasons.

      Since we tried to go to a pay-as-you-go model on bills the tax code has turned into an absolute shambles as the congresscritters look at how to tweak things to "produce" (look at the IRA withdrawals--it produced nothing, just moved some money forward one year while creating a trap that many have fallen into) the desired revenue to cover whatever the bill costs without "increasing taxes."

  • kgwgk 7 days ago

    > One could argue in the future, for example, that those who operate machines to produce tooling dies, should not have their labor treated as regular expenses, but instead as capital assets because their labor output is captured in assets,

    In the future? That's how it works!

    > just as Sec 174 treats the labor of software developers as assets.

    [I was wrong about the following. I misread the text - and the submission title.] That's not what 174 does.

    • bunnie 6 days ago

      Fair enough, that was not the best example.

      But I'd also observe that since business owners have to capitalize the wages of the machine operators producing injection molds, then there is an advantage to outsource the whole operation.

      Comparing a procurement manager and a CNC operator [the person running the milling machine making a mold] paid the same amount, the CNC operator has a bigger negative impact on the businesses' bottom line, because the business can't expense most of the CNC operator's wages in the current tax year, whereas the procurement manager is generally accepted as fully deductible expense.

      Of course, the labor that went into making the mold is effectively built into the acquisition price of the mold, so you haven't gotten rid of it by outsourcing it.

      But, by building it into the price of an outsourced mold, one can delay the purchase of the mold to next year to improve the P&L this year, but you can't similarly delay the wages of the tooling operator to a later date.

      So, when a CFO is looking for a way to improve the P&L in a given calendar year, there's an incentive to cut operators who build factories, tools, and other assets that have to be amortized, and replace them with more flexible outsource options.

      Of course, part of the reason mold making left the US is wages are lower outside the US. But I'd say the current situation with software engineers is a datapoint that demonstrates the impact of expensable versus amortizeable labor on employee retention. It could be that if the tax code is not fixed, the same "CFO logic" would lead to more and more software being outsourced over time, as management is an immediate expense, but software engineers are not.

      I suppose one can then argue, why should software engineers get special treatment compared to tooling operators; but then I would counter-argue that perhaps tooling operators should have gotten better treatment so we could have retained more of them in the US.

      • trhway 6 days ago

        >as management is an expense, but software engineers are not.

        is manager of AI agents (especially when they become more productive and capable than people) going to be a manager or software engineer?

      • [removed] 6 days ago
        [deleted]
    • procaryote 7 days ago

      source?

      • kgwgk 7 days ago

        https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/26/1.263(a)-2

        Example 4. Acquisition or production cost. D purchases and produces jigs, dies, molds, and patterns for use in the manufacture of D's products. Assume that each of these items is a unit of property as determined under § 1.263(a)-3(e) and is not a material and supply under § 1.162-3(c)(1). D is required to capitalize under paragraph (d)(1) of this section the amounts paid to acquire and produce the jigs, dies, molds, and patterns.

  • kiba 7 days ago

    Taxes on income or capital inherently reduce income and capital. Ditto for sale taxes, which reduces transaction volume.

    This is bad for the economy and ultimately reduce our tax base.

    About the only thing that doesn't happen is for non-reproducible privileges such as land, intellectual properties, the electromagnetic spectrum, etc.

    • happymellon 7 days ago

      Taxes reduces taxes?

      So are you saying that 0% rate taxes would capture the most tax?

      • eadmund 6 days ago

        > Taxes reduces taxes?

        Yes. It’s a second-order effect. Imagine if there were a 100% tax: the government would probably get no taxes, because there would be no economy.

        > So are you saying that 0% rate taxes would capture the most tax?

        No. There’s a sweet spot. Everyone argues about where it is, but obviously 0% and 100% tax rates would both be problems.

      • kiba 6 days ago

        Notice I note categories where it is fine to levy taxes without seeing a reduction in supply.

        If you tax the usage of the electranetic spectrum too much, you would get no usage but the electromagnetic spectrum would still be there.

      • wakamoleguy 6 days ago

        Not all taxes are in income or capital. Some are e.g. on consumption (gas, cigarettes, carbon, etc). There’s an argument that in place of corporate income taxes, we should let companies reinvest freely (or pay dividends), and then recoup the taxes elsewhere. The Planet Money podcast has a classic episode about this and other aspects of a presidential platform most economists could agree on.

    • markhahn 6 days ago

      I'm heartened to see this downvoted, since it's basically tax-trolling.

      Yes, there are people who think tax==bad. Most people (and for a century or so) have understood that taxes are ultimately spent, and normally with a "multiplier". That is, on something which actually stimulates further economic activity.

      Corporate profit, OTOH, normally just satisfies the rent-seeking economy, which is not productive in any natural definition. For instance, dividends and stock buybacks. Yes, some corporate profit feeds entrepreneurship, but that's simply not a large fraction of the corporate economy.

      • kiba 6 days ago

        It's simply pointing out that taxation of economic activity is detrimental to the state, not that taxes are evil. This should be avoided as much as possible unless truly necessary.

        The state can still tax in two ways, taxes on undesirable negative extremity such as products that give you long cancer, and unreproducible privileges. I listed those examples. There may be ground for taxing extreme wealth but I want to see extreme inequality fixed first.

        I am not even disputing that the government spending encourages economic activity, but we should at least not shoot ourselves in the foot only to heal the foot with another hand.

        I am advocating for the interest of the state.

OneDeuxTriSeiGo 7 days ago

So it applies to software engineers but under what definition of software engineer?

This [1] is the only definition the code actually give.

> (3) Software development

> For purposes of this section, any amount paid or incurred in connection with the development of any software shall be treated as a research or experimental expenditure.

1. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/174

-----

Is a test or QA engineer considered a software engineer?

Is an FPGA or ASIC engineer still considered a software engineer if they are writing in HDLs?

Is a systems engineer, electrical engineer, or mechanical engineer considered a software engineer because they use MATLAB, etc and use programming to do their design work?

Is a sysadmin, DB admin, or other IT staff considered a software engineer because they write software as part of their job?

What about a quantitative analyst, data scientist, accountant, actuary, or any of the other maths and analysis adjacent job roles that regularly use some level of programming to do their job (and therefore write software)?

What about HR, etc who use excel documents? Excel is fundamentally just a graphical array programming language (and the design of spreadsheet tools is heavily inspired directly from APL). Is anyone who uses excel or builds/maintains spreadsheets considered a software engineer?

Like software engineering is such a broad field and programming bleeds into every part of modern business at this point.

  • EnderWT 7 days ago

    The IRS released guidance back in 2023: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-23-63.pdf

    It starts on page 23.

    Plenty of analysis online by tax firms but I'll quote from this one: https://insightplus.bakermckenzie.com/bm/attachment_dw.actio...

    > Generally, activities treated as software development for section 174 purposes include, but are not limited to, the following.

    • planning the development of the computer software

    • designing the computer software

    • building a model of the computer software

    • writing source code and converting it to machine-readable code

    • testing the computer software (up to the point that a taxpayer places the computer software into service or determines that the computer software is ready for sale or licensing to others)

    • producing product master(s), if the taxpayer develops the computer software for sale or licensing to others.

    > Activities that are not treated as software development vis-à-vis software developed by a taxpayer for use in its trade or business are as follows:

    • training employees and other stakeholders that will use the computer software

    • maintenance activities after the taxpayer places the computer software into service

    • data conversion activities, except for activities to develop computer software that facilitate access to existing data or data conversion

    • installing the computer software and other activities relating to placing the computer software into service

    • hn_throwaway_99 7 days ago

      > maintenance activities after the taxpayer places the computer software into service

      This is the part that I think makes this whole jig of treating software development like a purely capitalizable expense so nuts.

      I previously worked at a public company that wanted software developers to treat as much work as possible as CapEx - it makes you look more profitable than you actually are, which is bad for taxes but good for your stock price. Developers hated it. The problem with it is that with modern web based software, CI/CD, A/B testing, etc. that the line between "new software" (i.e. CapEx) and "maint" (i.e. OpEx) is so blurred as to be pointless. E.g. many times I'd be fixing a bug (technically OpEx) but that would often lead to some new features ideas, or ways to structure the software to make it easier to add new features (technically CapEx). Software is fundamentally different from capital expenditures in other areas, and assuming a 5 year straightline depreciation schedule for software is laughably absurd.

      What other sort of capital expenditure has you do releases every day, or requires 24/7 monitoring? I would argue that the business of software has changed so drastically over the past 20 or so years that it makes much more sense just to categorize it as OpEx by default (for both tax and GAAP purposes), and only have it be capitalized as CapEx for very small and specific reasons.

      • graycat 7 days ago

        Your Honor, here printed on paper is what the Prosection calls "software". Actually as anyone can see on the paper, what is there is just ordinary typing A-Z and 0-9 with a lot of the typing in English. Businesses have been doing typing for many decades. E.g., this typing is much like instructions to a delivery truck driver to deliver goods to customers. And it's the same if a drone reads those instructions and makes the delivery. Prosecution has yet to show what of this paper is other than business typing ~100 years old.

        • glitchc 6 days ago

          It runs on a computer. It tells a computer how to do things. You can type once and have the same instructions run again and again on the same computer or on different computers. It can run on many computers simultaneously. No human intervention is required for all of the above.

      • michaelt 7 days ago

        > What other sort of capital expenditure has you do releases every day, or requires 24/7 monitoring?

        Quite a lot of them actually. If I spend $$$$ setting up a car factory with a big production line, I'm going to have people monitoring it 24/7. If I build an airport, I'm going to have air traffic controllers working 24/7. And so on.

        Of course, the air traffic controllers didn't build the runway, and the construction crew don't direct air traffic, so the whole situation is much less ambiguous.

      • gboss 7 days ago

        What we do is enforce that everyone keeps one ticket in JIRA as in progress and use a timekeeping add on. The tickets role up to epics and initiatives. I review each top level initiative and epic with finance and they deem it capitalizable or not. Then we add a haircut. It’s really not that much work. We have an hour meeting monthly to work it out but I make sure to exclude my mainline engineers. They don’t need that

      • hshdhdhj4444 7 days ago

        The entire thing is nuts.

        And no one thinks it was sensible.

        The only reason it exists is for political games by Trump 1.

        Now imagine all the nonsense that’s gonna go into the much bigger Trump 2 tax cut bill.

    • OneDeuxTriSeiGo 7 days ago

      > • data conversion activities, except for activities to develop computer software that facilitate access to existing data or data conversion

      ex: linking excel spreadsheets or setting up excel to ingest data from a sharepoint or network drive would still fall under the definiton of software developer

      > • maintenance activities after the taxpayer places the computer software into service

      So a sysadmin or a DB admin writing scripts or a DB admin writing queries and adding new reports would be considered software development

      It just seems way too easy for arbitrary employees to get pulled in under this definition because it just fundamentally misunderstands how widespread programming is.

      • raverbashing 7 days ago

        You missed the paragraph saying that maintenance activities are not considered development activities

    • keepamovin 7 days ago

      So if you’re just maintaining a software, that’s already used then you’re good.

      I used to support this change because I thought that it would fairly make the software industry like many other industries who have to pay this kind of amortization for R&D and I believe that there would be carve outs for small organization so that really large ones are the only ones who bear the cost.

      I also believed it unlikely that this would be enforced or audited before there were such corrections or refinement to the original language.

      So the way I viewed it was it’s basically a higher tax for giant software companies, but everyone else will be unaffected by it so we shouldn’t worry.

      However, I also now support repealing or changing it because whether or not it has ever or was ever gonna be enforced or audited, it’s ended up causing a lot of disruption across the entire software industry. So much so that it actually looks more like an unfair penalty against software development than anything else now unfortunately.

      So I’ll definitely be signing that little petition under my US corporation.

    • axus 7 days ago

      What a wonderful sales pitch for a timesheet software feature. Track non-software-related work for expensing in the current tax year.

      • koolba 7 days ago

        Any decent sized company already does this. You’ll see a field on things like Jira tickets for whether something is maintenance or capital improvement. And presumably that information can be used to infer the percentage of a given workers time that can be attributed to deductible vs depreciable expenses.

      • OneDeuxTriSeiGo 7 days ago

        This is fairly standard for a lot of larger companies and for companies where your work is contract work (see defense contractors, legal firms, architecture and civil engineering firms). You have to do line item billing on costs for a given contract so you have to track how many hours are spent to do whatever labor needs done.

        The issue is that this is a lot of unnecessary complexity for orgs that aren't doing that kind of work.

  • teeray 7 days ago

    > under what definition of software engineer?

    Probably a broad enough definition to net the US Government the greatest tax revenue possible for the effort to enact this.

    • sailfast 7 days ago

      They want the change to _seem_ like it will bring in revenue so the CBO number adding to the deficit is lower.

      The folks advocating for this could care less about the deficit, but they need to act like they care.

    • abeppu 7 days ago

      IDK if that's right. Oddly, the current administration has gutted the IRS and seems pretty ambivalent about collecting taxes that are on the books. I wonder if there will be an inconsistent definition of who is a software engineer, based on how friendly the company is with the administration, whether the company still has someone with a DEI title, etc.

      • sh34r 7 days ago

        Judging by the Big Law shakedown, enforcement will be based on how much of your corporate cash is held in Taco’s shitcoin.

      • teeray 7 days ago

        > the current administration… seems pretty ambivalent about collecting taxes that are on the books. I wonder if there will be an inconsistent definition of who is a software engineer, based on how friendly the company is with the administration, whether the company still has someone with a DEI title

        So basically the same situation that we have with bullshit speed limits everywhere.

      • drdec 7 days ago

        What's really going on here is that this provision was part of the tax acts from the first Trump administration. Due to procedural rules in Congress, they had to make those cuts appear revenue neutral over a 10 year time period. This tax increase is part of that. Very likely nobody involved really had a reason or cared that SEs get categorized this way, it just let them pass the changes they really wanted at the time.

    • sh34r 7 days ago

      A sufficiently idiotic tax scheme such as Section 174 can destroy far more income tax revenue than it collects, by destroying jobs and small businesses, and knocking high earners down a tax bracket or three. Section 174 isn’t doing much to tax FANG companies. Apple has all their profits in their Double Irish Dutch Sandwich racket. Amazon cooks the books to appear unprofitable on paper, in a manner that would make Hollywood accountants blush.

      This really only hurts the competition, who is completely unprofitable in every sense of the word. And all for what? Left-shifting the collection of a 21% income tax by a couple years? I think many of us would’ve done terrible things in 2021 to only have an effective tax rate of 21%. The government mugged Peter the payroll tax man to pay Paul the corpo tax man, but they disemboweled Peter in the process, and most of the money had to be disposed of as a biohazard.

      I don’t believe Section 174 was an honest attempt to manage the deficit. I think Zuck, the PayPal Mafia, and the blood-boy cabal bribed some Congresscritters to kill off what remained of their competition.

      • robocat 7 days ago

        > I think Zuck, the PayPal Mafia, and the blood-boy cabal bribed some Congresscritters to kill off what remained of their competition.

        What's with the craze for finding conspirational incentives?

        There's a repeatable pattern where commenters hallucinate an unreasonable incentive for everything.

        Motivations are difficult to discern (see courtrooms), and it is a modern vice to try and analyse incentives, but too often the cause-and-effect imaginations are not even reasonable guesses, but are just pure fiction.

        My best guess (based off word choices made) is that we all love to create new stories/narratives, that fit into our personal tribal stories.

  • anigbrowl 7 days ago

    The answer to all these questions is yes, i don't see the point in trying to obfuscate this with artificial complexity.

    What about HR, etc who use excel documents?

    IF they are using it rather than developing it, no. If they put in 5 hours a week writing code, yes for those 5 hours. This isn't hard.

    • OneDeuxTriSeiGo 7 days ago

      Okay so your random HR person at a nontechnical small to medium sized business now is on the line for developing spreadsheets to manage scheduling.

      OR they need to maintain a set of activity codes and a timesheet outlining how many hours (or partial hours) each week are spent on what types of tasks.

      It's unnecessary complexity if you want to be in actual compliance with the tax code vs just guessing whether XYZ task is on one side of the line vs the other and hoping it doesn't come back to bite you later.

    • Dig1t 7 days ago

      How is an HR person writing a script to do their HR work better considered an R&D expense?

      • anigbrowl 7 days ago

        Scripted automation is quite literally development of IP. It's an asset that belongs to the company and will be counted as such on its balance sheet.

    • jandrese 7 days ago

      So now every engineer has to record how many hours each day were spent doing "software development" vs. "software maintenance"/"overhead"/"etc..."?

      • [removed] 7 days ago
        [deleted]
      • Muromec 7 days ago

        You just add a row to spreadsheet at the end of the month. 30% maintenance, 70% development or whatever

      • joquarky 7 days ago

        In my experience, at least contractors at a major ISP have to.

  • ManBeardPc 7 days ago

    > For purposes of this section, any amount paid or incurred in connection with the development of any software shall be treated as a research or experimental expenditure.

    For me that sounds like everyone and everything in a company that develops software of any kind, including low-/no-code stuff, accounting, HR, travel costs, massages. Like who is not "in connection with the development of any software" in a company that develops software? Without further definitions this is even worse then just software engineering costs.

  • _heimdall 6 days ago

    > This [1] is the only definition the code actually give.

    Like most of our tax code, its overly complicated by unclear or incomplete codes.

    The IRS will give guidance with examples, but those examples are still incomplete.

    Ultimately our tax code always comes down to the filer doing whatever they (a) think they can get away with or (b) are willing to defend if they get audited.

  • nodesocket 7 days ago

    I’m a solo founder and sometimes outsource projects. How does that work if I pay a contractor a few thousand for a project? Are contractors allowed to be deducted fully at 100% expense?

  • stult 7 days ago

    Yes, this is an insane policy that reflects a complete ignorance of the on-ground realities. It was almost certainly only passed to help the 2017 tax bill's legislative scoring by the CBO.

    I posted about this on Reddit the other day. https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/1l3lo7j/the_hidd...

    > Yeah, it's pretty much completely insane. Although in your example I think you accidentally picked numbers that actually work out precisely to zero dollars in taxable income. The company (if US-based) would have zero taxable income in the first year because they can deduct 1/5th of the salaries (because there is a five year amortization for US companies, and 15 year for foreign companies), so they would have $1m in gross income and $1m in deductions resulting in $0 in taxable income. But you can tweak the numbers a bit to get the result you intended, e.g., $1m in revenue and $2.5m in salary would result in $500,000 additional taxable income under the TCJA's version of Section 174 over the previous version of the code, even though in reality the company operated at a net loss. (edit, just looked this up and actually the amortization is dated from the midyear of the tax year in which the expense is incurred, which is also just fucking bonkers, but that means I was incorrect and your example does yield a taxable income, because the first year in your example would have $500k in deductions rather than the full 20% of the $5m expense, resulting in $500k taxable profit)

    > All of which means that we treat R&D salaries less favorably than ordinary salaries, which are fully deductible in the year they are incurred. So our tax code now not only fails to incentivize R&D as under the previous R&D tax credit regime, it actively treats R&D employee salaries worse than non-R&D salaries. Even though R&D jobs are generally the highly skilled, well compensated, white collar careers we want to keep in this country.

    > Section 174 also specifically designates all software development as R&D, so there's no way to develop software while claiming it is not R&D. I'm sure accountants have been jumping through hoops in their efforts to reclassify other kinds of product development jobs as not R&D, which is the exact opposite of what R&D tax studies used to do, which was to label as much employee compensation as R&D expenses as possible, because §174 and the related, intersecting provisions of §41 (the R&D tax credit itself), treated R&D salaries more favorably than other salaries. To a certain extent, the OP article understated how much of a swing this revision to the tax code is. It isn't just that we are treating R&D salaries worse than we used to, but that we are treating them even worse than we treat other kinds of salaries. Which is bizarre in a world where the policy objective is to retain R&D jobs in the US.

    > The purpose of capitalization is to match expenses to benefits over multiple tax years. So that the tax payer can't take a huge tax deduction up front to generate an economically fictional loss in the short term on an asset that will generate income over the many years. Amortization forces them to deduct the expense of the asset over time as the benefit accrues over time.

    > This model is a poor fit for software. Construction workers produce an asset with a generally predictable and known useful lifetime and long-term stable value that is independent of the business. You can always sell a building.

    > Software, however, does not generally create value for very long if it is not subject to continuous development and improvement. It also decays very rapidly when not maintained (e.g. security patches), yet there is no distinction in the tax code between new development and production support/maintenance software development. Nor would any such distinction make any sense in reality, because unlike a physical asset software is subject to continuous change and there is little distinction between adding new features and maintaining existing features. This approach to capitalizing salaries contrasts with other capitalized assets like buildings, where most ordinary maintenance costs are deducted in the current year, not capitalized.

    > The value of software can be much harder to predict than other capitalized assets. Both in terms of the demand, but also in terms of the technical capability to deliver the desired product. Which is why it's considered R&D in the first place: there is inherent technical risk in many if not most software projects which is not present in other kinds of economic activities that produce capitalized assets.

    > Software is often so specialized that it cannot be sold on to a third-party without selling the entire business around the software, including existing customers, distribution and sales channels, and supporting software engineering staff. It's not a liquid, fungible, alienable asset the way other capitalized assets typically are. There is no real market for the source code to Reddit, for example, because there is nothing technically special about Reddit. The company's value derives from the user base, the community, and the data, not anything particularly special about its software.

    > The tax code also confuses the output of the software development process with the value software can generate. Software developers produce code. Some of that code is valuable, much is not. Unlike with other capitalized assets, you can't know in advance whether the software you produce actually works 100% of the time, even with robust testing and QA. Whereas you can be quite certain that a building will continue to function as a building if it is built correctly. Many software engineers actually regard code as a liability rather than an asset. The more you have to maintain, the more work you have to do to maintain the code base and the harder it is to add new features or debug issues with existing features. So if you can deliver the same capability to your customers with less code, then that is preferable. Which is to say, the output of the software development process is much more loosely tied to predictable economic value than other capitalized assets.

    > Software is also frequently delivered as a service, which highlights the inanity of treating software as a fixed, long-term asset. The team maintaining a SaaS will handle day-to-day site reliability engineering work, which is never a stable output but needs to be constantly tweaked to match actual usage patterns.

    > Last, and this is implicit in much of the above, but unlike other capitalized assets, software is never really complete. There are always more features, more optimizations, more bug fixes. Software development is never steady state. Either the software isn't being developed actively and quickly loses nearly all value due to code rot, or it is being actively maintained and improved and is producing value. Buildings don't stop functioning as buildings when you stop paying the construction workers. Thus, software development does not produce a long-term fixed asset but rather is a continuous service delivery process, where the revenue produced in any given year was produced by the same year expenses to maintain the software. Thus, software expenses and revenues are mostly naturally aligned in a single tax year, and therefore software is not suitable for amortization.

  • ivankelly 6 days ago

    From the wording, it sounds like it applies to contracting non-US resident software development as well.

  • normie3000 7 days ago

    > Is an FPGA or ASIC engineer still considered a software engineer if they are writing in HDLs?

    Of course not. The Glorious Leader is rescuing the american hardware sector.

  • paulddraper 7 days ago

    There is a substantially more definition, but the tl;dr is this an R&D expense, or COGS expense?

    R&D is amortized, COGS is not.

zacharycohn 7 days ago

Just to drive the point home very explicitly:

That means, in the given example above, you are able to deduct $180k that first year instead of $900k.

That gives you a profit, from a tax perspective, of $820k.

But you only have $100k of actual dollars.

Good luck paying your taxes!

  • echelon 7 days ago

    This seems like the biggest reason behind the mass layoffs, not the end of ZIRP.

    • cjbgkagh 7 days ago

      With ZIRP it would be relatively easy to borrow the float required to make up for the amortization timeline.

    • _heimdall 6 days ago

      How do you land on likely causality here?

      It sure seems like it could be related, but I don't know where to begin finding what actually caused layoffs across multiple companies.

  • actinium226 7 days ago

    Only if you assume that the 900k in costs is exclusively the salary of 5 engineers. Realistically you will employ other people and have overhead costs like rent, etc., and I assume that other non-salary costs (health insurance, etc.) aren't included (b/c I assume health insurance, like rent, is a company-wide overhead cost and that companies aren't expected to carve out what portion of that is going to the software folks but what do I know?).

    But if we more realistically assume it's 3 software folks at 200k, then the taxable profit is 580k (100 profit + 3*(200k salary - 40k ammortized))

    • throwaway7783 7 days ago

      1M eng salaries, 5m revenue, 4M other costs.

      Today I am cash flow neutral at 5m revenue, but with this I'm paying taxes on 800k "profits", which don't exist anywhere but on paper. But I have to pay the taxes in real dollars.

      • rtpg 7 days ago

        This is going to sound silly but you paid 800k in profits, but now have 4 years of banked costs you can use to _reduce_ your profit margin.

        So you pay taxes on 800k profits, but then each subsequent year you reduce you profit by 200k, even though you don't have 200k leaving the door.

        If 1M eng salaries was your stable state, then after several years you're... going to have 1M in costs to subtract from your profit! The stable state is the same!

        I'm not going to argue about the capex change being "good", I do think it's worth highlighting that for large enough companies you're now looking at a different flavor of tax flow. Amortizing your costs over 5-10 years is something people like doing for other costs after all.

    • PaulDavisThe1st 7 days ago

      The point is that if your revenue covers their salaries/contract costs, you will owe tax on 80% of their salary in the first year.

  • naikrovek 7 days ago

    > That gives you a profit, from a tax perspective, of $820k.

    > But you only have $100k of actual dollars.

    > Good luck paying your taxes!

    a lot of people here are conflating "taxable income" and "the amount owed in taxes" for some reason.

    if I earn $100/year, and I can deduct $50 of that, my tax bill is not $50. It is some percentage of $50, usually a low number for businesses. (Amazon regularly pays $0/year in taxes.)

    depending on the tax rates and the locality of that business, the amount owed on tax is going to be anywhere from $0 to $50, and it is going to heavily favor the low end of that spectrum. I don't think any business pays 100% of its taxable income in taxes unless they have been heavily fined.

    $100k is likely far more than enough to pay the tax on $820k of taxable income for a business. It could be enough to pay that tax bill 10 times over, it's hard to say.

    my point is that taxable income != tax owed.

    • aqme28 7 days ago

      (Not a tax professional) The federal corporate tax rate is 21% and for states it ranges from 0 to about 9%.

      So generally you're going to pay at least 21% or $170k for those "profits."

      • rbultje 7 days ago

        LLCs pay 37%, not 21%. Plus state plus local. This can reach 50% in high-tax areas like CA or NY.

    • shaftway 7 days ago

      > Amazon regularly pays $0/year in taxes.

      They *were* able to, because they *were* able to offset the cost of developers instead of having to amortize it out over 5 years.

      • naniwaduni 6 days ago

        For Amazon, this just costs two years on the taxes. They'll still be able to claim depreciation of this year's dev work for the next four, though.

    • koolba 7 days ago

      > if I earn $100/year, and I can deduct $50 of that, my tax bill is not $50. It is some percentage of $50, usually a low number for businesses. (Amazon regularly pays $0/year in taxes.)

      It’s not that low. Federal corporate tax rate is 21%. So you would be on the hook for $10 in taxes.

  • doxeddaily 7 days ago

    My taxes (flow through LLC) are significantly higher than my income for 2024 (like hundreds of k).

ASalazarMX 7 days ago

That's nuts, since a payroll should never be considered an asset. That's trying to put a material value on software, and doing it based on the salaries of developers is as crazy as valuing it in lines of code.

The value of software could be based on something more realistic, like a percentage of actual revenue, but I suppose tech giants would be against that.

  • addaon 7 days ago

    > That's trying to put a material value on software, and doing it based on the salaries of developers is as crazy as valuing it in lines of code.

    Software clearly has material value. For software that is built, not bought, the company building it clearly values it exactly enough to pay the salaries of the software developers building it. What other estimate of its material value is better than the one that the company purchasing it is demonstrably willing to pay?

    • yojo 7 days ago

      The argument I’ve heard is it specifically makes investing in speculative software (new product lines, new features, etc) more expensive.

      If you’re doing new drug discovery at a bio-lab, treating all your failures as depreciating “assets” seems bonkers. The same seems true of much software development where the work product ends up thrown away.

      • grogers 7 days ago

        How does this compare to a machine that breaks and is thrown away before its amortization is complete? For the machine can you immediately deduct the remaining amount or is it required to continue to spread the value over the original time period?

        I would imagine software that is thrown away should be similar?

      • rtpg 7 days ago

        I don't get this. You speculative spend 1 million dollars on a new thing. It fails. In one universe you get to deduct 1M from your profit in year 1. In another you get to deduct 1M from your profit, but over 5 years.

        I understand the pain for small companies and it's a strain on cash flow, but for larger companies with "real" revenue streams and profitability is this that much worse?

        The cynical thing might be that this helps out big corps by preventing smaller corps from spending their way to success.

      • ndriscoll 7 days ago

        The answer to this seems obvious to me: let the company publish all code and documentation pertaining to failed experiments and release it into the public domain to be allowed to fully depreciate it immediately. If it is actually worthless, they should be happy to do so.

    • nolok 7 days ago

      By that logic so does an accounting book by an accountant, so does an inventory log by a factory hand, ...

    • PaulDavisThe1st 7 days ago

      It's not a question of what its material value is.

      It's a question of whether it is a capital expense that is required to be amortized over 5 or 15 years, or a regular expense that can be deducted in the year in which it is incurred.

    • throwaway7783 7 days ago

      The price at which it sells the said software? Aka profits after expenses?

      • addaon 7 days ago

        > The price at which it sells the said software? Aka profits after expenses?

        A vanishingly small percentage of software is sold.

        • throwaway7783 7 days ago

          If we are being pedantic, sold or rented. I think the issue is on how the concept asset depreciation is applied blindly, as if dev salaries every year is the asset value every year. Unlike other asset classes, there is no easy to way value software beforehand, because you are not buying it from some market.

    • epistasis 7 days ago

      > software that is built, not bought, the company building it clearly values it exactly enough to pay the salaries of the software developers building it

      Even in the absence of the Trump tax rule, a software company values the software they are building a lot more in financial terms than the cost of building it. Any project where value=cost should be cut, when the value is taking into account the value it brings to the rest of the company.

      This is the entire point of the business, after all: take labor, land, and capital and make something that's worth a lot more to the world than the sum of the components.

      • nikkwong 7 days ago

        You're advertising your rose-colored glasses strongly, my friend. In a perfect world, of course—you're correct. But hiring, project management, and resource allocation are messy endeavors, so your point only rings true under ideal circumstances. The real effect this will have on industry is a chilling effect on hiring as businesses now have to risk-mitigate because of the additional taxation burden. Further, I see this hurting small and less-well resourced companies relatively more so, as they now need to be more scrupulous over hiring.

        • epistasis 7 days ago

          Not at all, this is a fundamental difference in pricing and costs. The value of an asset is its price, not its cost. When a firm sets out to buy something for X from a different firm, they value it at X. When they build something with internal resources for a cost of Y, they do not value that asset at its cost Y.

    • fuzztester 7 days ago

      how about all the projects that fail all over the world, all the time? what is the material value of those?

  • narag 7 days ago

    That's trying to put a material value on software, and doing it based on the salaries of developers is as crazy as valuing it in lines of code.

    I'm not sure if depreciation is the same concept as we call amortización in my country: capital that counts as investment instead of expenses because you're expected to keep extracting value from it over the years, so you can't get a deduction for the whole expense when you first pay for it.

    If that's what this is about, it's absurd not for the reason you say (salaries are not a bad proxy for value, since you expect the profit will be greater) but because you'll probably keep paying for maintenance and evolving the software.

    • jameshart 7 days ago

      Exactly. We would love software development to be as simple as: you pay $1m to engineers to develop a software machine; you now have a $1m software machine that you can pay nonengineers to operate and crank out revenue.

      In practice software machines need constant tending and operation by engineers in order to keep them pumping out money.

      In the context of live software systems, a lot of software engineering - even engineering that involves innovation and creative research and problem solving - is done in service of making the machine continue to operate; it is operational expense.

      It’s like: Buying some filing cabinets is clearly a capital expenditure. But paying an office administrator to come up with and keep modifying the filing system you use in those filing cabinets to make sure it continues to serve your business is not capital investment, it’s business operational costs.

    • andrewlgood 6 days ago

      Many people use depreciation and amortization interchangeably. From an accounting perspective one uses depreciation for tangible assets (can be touched and seen e.g. machinery) and amortization for intangible assets (e.g. trademarks and R&D). Depreciation and amortization behave the same way - they decrease an asset by expensing a portion of it on a regular basis.

    • amanaplanacanal 7 days ago

      If you buy a building, it is a capital expense that depreciates over years, even though you absolutely have to keep paying for maintenance. Why should software be different?

      • convolvatron 7 days ago

        if I pay a bunch of employees to take the cloth I buy and cut and sew into shirts, that's an expense some directly out of my revenue and isn't taxed as profit or forced to be amortized. Why should software be different?

        • amanaplanacanal 7 days ago

          I suppose it depends. Are you making shirts to sell, or to use in your business? One is inventory, one is a capital expense.

      • jetsnoc 7 days ago

        Unlike a building—where you might find one for sale and simply buy it—most companies don’t "buy one software" from a vendor and amortize it like a purchased asset. Instead, they hire full-time teams to build, maintain, and evolve software as a core, continuous function of the business. And most companies don’t "sell one software" either—they lease it to others, as software-as-a-service.

        In your analogy, when a company constructs and sells a building, labor costs are deductible as part of the cost of goods sold. Only the profit—when the finished product is sold—is taxable. But under the new Section 174 rules, software R&D labor is treated like the purchase of a capital asset, even though the company is leasing a service, not selling a final, tangible product.

        The flaw? Software isn’t a static, finished asset you walk away from. It’s a living system. One update might fix a bug, introduce a feature, and improve long-term architecture all at once. Is it maintenance? Innovation? Infrastructure? The answer is usually “all of the above.” So how does anyone report that cleanly on a tax form? What’s the IRS’s standard test for sorting that out?

        Before TCJA, some companies may have stretched R&D definitions to claim Section 41 credits. But after the TCJA change, the incentive flipped. Now, companies are penalized for doing real R&D—the very thing we should be encouraging. Startups are now paying painfully high tax bills simply for building something they cannot lease out en masse yet.

        We should want to incentivize invention, not suppress it. We need more startups, not fewer. Software—especially with generative AI—is one of the few options for us left that can create new markets, expand GDP, and drive compounding national growth. The upside is limitless. This is hammering our economy and it’s strangling startups at the exact moment we need them most.

        Congress, do the right thing; restore the rules we had pre-TCJA.

        Timeline:

        - 1981: Section 41 introduced — provides tax credits for qualified R&D activities.

        - Pre-2018: Under Section 174, R&D expenses (including software) were fully deductible; Section 41 credits could be claimed.

        - 2017 (Dec): TCJA passed by the 115th Congress and signed by President Trump; Section 174 expenses to be amortized over 5 years starting in 2022.

        - 2022: Amortization rule takes effect. Companies must now capitalize and amortize R&D expenses.

        - 2025: Section 174 amortization remains in effect; Section 41 credits still exist but now come with a steep tradeoff.

  • mbesto 7 days ago

    > That's nuts, since a payroll should never be considered an asset.

    That's because it's not "a payroll". When a payrolled resource builds a combustion engine that powers the office where the rest of the payrolled resources work every day and that engine lasts 15 years, then its a very clearly a capital expense and an asset.

    • procaryote 7 days ago

      Under these rules no. If the "machine" is software, payroll is considered a capital expense and an asset. If it's an actual machine, payroll for building it is fully deductible, like most other payroll.

      Software used to work like other payroll until fairly recently. If you want to understand this figure out why that changed and what the actual motivation behind it was

      • kgwgk 7 days ago

        > If it's an actual machine, payroll for building it is fully deductible, like most other payroll.

        Not if the machine is used as an integral part of manufacturing, production, or extraction, or an integral part of furnishing transportation, communications, electrical energy, gas, water, or sewage disposal services by a person engaged in a trade or business of furnishing any such service, or is a research or storage facility used in connection with any of the foregoing activities.

  • jldugger 7 days ago

    > That's trying to put a material value on software, and doing it based on the salaries of developers is as crazy as valuing it in lines of code.

    We all do this at the conclusion of every successful job interview. And performance review. And budget review. IMO it's a reasonable floor on the value engineers produce: if you produced an asset worth less than your salary you should be concerned for your career.

    • pc86 7 days ago

      On what time scale? In a year, sure. But there are certainly days (weeks?) where the actual value produced by any one engineer is zero, or negative.

      This whole discussion is sort of orthogonal to the real point, though. The state (or the IRS, or Congress, or whatever) has decided that for some reason, if Jim gets paid $100k his boss can deduct $100k in expenses, but if Jane gets paid $100k her boss can only deduct $20k, because she's typing different things into a different box the computer.

      This is a categorically stupid thing to assert. It's a stupid thing to say and it's a stupid thing to believe. Payroll is an immediate cost, paying for the development of software is not remotely the same thing as purchasing a capital asset, and this is exactly what we get when we keep electing nonagenarian plutocrats to office year after year, decade after decade, who think the internet is a series of tubes.

      • jldugger 7 days ago

        > On what time scale? In a year, sure. But there are certainly days (weeks?) where the actual value produced by any one engineer is zero, or negative.

        Well, that's what I had in mind, but the concept is why agile focuses on shipping early and often. Well, mostly it's to get in more feedback iterations, but engineer hours are not immune to time-value of money analysis.

        > This is a categorically stupid thing to assert. It's a stupid thing to say and it's a stupid thing to believe. Payroll is an immediate cost, paying for the development of software is not remotely the same thing as purchasing a capital asset

        But it's also not like paying a janitor to clean toilets and empty wastebins where we know there's no residual value accruing to the employer. Companies do buy and sell intellectual property in the form of copyrighted code, and in the form of patents. Heck, ARM basically makes a living licensing out the cores it designs.

        This obviously isn't perfect and the disparate impact has unintended consequences that could make things worse overall, but the accusations against the senate are a non-sequitor given the power of the purse lies in the House.

    • procaryote 7 days ago

      Why is software special? Why is all other payroll not treated like this?

      In reality, this is something made up to balance a budget while pushing the consequences beyond the next election. It isn't a well intentioned accounting principle

      • andrewlgood 6 days ago

        It’s not just software. Software developers are just the most vocal people talking about it. I worked a company that owned nuclear power plants. We did R&D on how to make the power plants work more efficiently and safely. Some of the work we did qualified as R&D and could be capitalized. This mattered as the US government gave tax credits for eligible R&D. The tax credits directly reduced your tax bill.

brianbreslin 6 days ago

Out of curiosity, why were software engineers carved out? Was this a punishment against the tech industry? With 45/47's administration there is always some either profit angle for his friends or retribution angle for something.

Volundr 7 days ago

Forgive the naive question, but is this different than other payrolled employees? So for normal employees you get the deduct the year it's paid, but for some reason for software developers you have to amortize it?

  • Negitivefrags 7 days ago

    Theoretically it’s the same with any asset you pay someone to make.

    If you pay someone to make a chair, you don’t deduct the salary. Instead you create an asset valued at what you paid to build it, then depreciate it over time.

    The arguement for this is that it would be inconsistent to do otherwise. After all, why should buying a chair from someone else be different than paying an employee to do it?

    It’s worth noting that this change brings the USA in line with international financial reporting standards, so it’s not like it’s some crazy unique idea or anything.

    • PaulDavisThe1st 7 days ago

      > Theoretically it’s the same with any asset you pay someone to make.

      No, it's not.

      Sec. 174 explicitly and specifically refers only to software development.

      Also, this:

      > If you pay someone to make a chair, you don’t deduct the salary. Instead you create an asset valued at what you paid to build it, then depreciate it over time.

      is also incorrect. For most tax filers, and for most things, under current law, you have a choice whether to deduct the expense in the year in which it incurred or to amortize it.

    • pc86 7 days ago

      If you pay an employee to make a chair, you 100% deduct their salary, immediately. The chair is only a capital expense if you buy it from a company that sells chairs. The company selling the chairs isn't forced to amortize the salaries of their carpenters, so implying that it's normal for companies to be forced to amortize the salaries of their software engineers is, in the most generous possible interpretation, a gross misunderstanding of the law.

      > this change brings the USA in line with international financial reporting standards

      Which ones?

      • Negitivefrags 7 days ago

        If you pay people to make 1000 chairs that are just sitting there, do you really think that you don’t have an asset on your books at all? This is called Inventory. It’s certainly an asset.

        And an asset doesn’t come into existence out of nowhere. It comes into existence because you paid money for it. And the money you pay for it is indeed the persons salary.

        Now sure, it’s possible to get away with not doing this, but it’s not correct by accounting standards to do so.

        As for which standards, International Financial Reporting Standard (IFRS)

        • elbear 6 days ago

          What other country in the world doesn't allow you to deduct the full salary you pay your employees in one year? I've never heard of this.

    • NoMoreNicksLeft 6 days ago

      >If you pay someone to make a chair, you don’t deduct the salary.

      If they make the chair. What if they only draw up blueprints for a chair that isn't manufactured? What if the chair is never manufactured, or won't be manufactured for two years? Until the software is licensed and installed at a customer site, how is this at all like making a chair?

    • Volundr 7 days ago

      > The arguement for this is that it would be inconsistent to do otherwise. After all, why should buying a chair from someone else be different than paying an employee to do it?

      Probably exposing how little I know of accounting... If you buy a chair you have to track it and deduct it over the course of X years?! It's not just an expense the year you bought it?

      • pc86 7 days ago

        Most of the time you can decide what you want to do. There are exceptions but for most capital expenses (which salary is not despite what proponents of this change would argue), you can choose to either deduct all of it or amortize it. It also depends how you categorize expenses.

        A $100 chair is unlikely to get amortized, but a $100 chair as part of $450k office remodel might.

    • doctorpangloss 7 days ago

      > It’s worth noting that this change brings the USA in line with international financial reporting standards, so it’s not like it’s some crazy unique idea or anything.

      Can you be more specific?

    • procaryote 7 days ago

      almost everything you said is wrong, so points for consistency?

  • IG_Semmelweiss 7 days ago

    "Other payroll employees" is doing a lot of lifting.

    The question is really, payroll is made up of builders, vs nonbuilders.

    Are devs different from other builders? The dirty secret is that they are not.

    Ford engineers, P&G food researchers, and architect salaries are capitalized just like Software development costs.

    But, in the case of software development, only those builders are getting a nice subsidy.

    A world where we treat all workers as expenses is not likely since it means the end of US GAAP. So, we must treat all builders like builders . There shouldn't be special favors for some any specific builder group.

    • GenerWork 7 days ago

      >But, in the case of software development, only those builders are getting a nice subsidy.

      This is why I can't support re-implementing Section 174. Software engineers are now being treated in the tax code like everybody else, and they don't like that change.

    • floxy 7 days ago

      >Ford engineers, P&G food researchers, and architect salaries are capitalized just like Software development costs.

      I'd say the majority of the posters on this thread who are answering questions (as opposed to asking questions) believe this is not the case. What is a good source for learning more about which categories of employee salaries are amortized? Besides becoming a CPA.

      • ekianjo 7 days ago

        You can easily check that architects follow the same rules. When they work towards creating a new building their salaries are amortized

        • floxy 7 days ago

          I wonder if most of the people in this thread should then change their minds on this topic, since the #1 reason seems to be that software development is being singled out.

  • spockz 7 days ago

    The logic outlined in other posts is that this is because software is seen as an asset that nets dividend. As such, like with houses you can’t deduct all the costs at once because you keep extracting value out of it.

    I’m not sure whether I understand why that now applies only to software and not other things.

    • digitaltrees 7 days ago

      Those arguments fall short when considering the fact that that the construction company deducted the wages of the workers that built the house. The software development firm is the builder not the home owner.

      • jncfhnb 7 days ago

        If you’re building software to use or sell to other people you are definitely the owner.

        If you’re a body shop lending out devs to build software for other people, that would be different

stult 7 days ago

> In the case of the $200k engineer, you deduct the first $40k in the first year, then you can expense another $40k from that first year in the second year, the third $40k in the third year, and so on through the fifth year. So eventually you get to expense the entire first year of the engineer's pay, but only after five years.

This actually understates the issue slightly. The amortization is calculated from the midpoint of the first tax year, so actually you only take 10% in the first year. Meaning it takes six years to get back to square one. In your example, you would only capitalize $20k in the first year, $40k for the subsequent four years, and then another $20k in the final year.

gnopgnip 7 days ago

Normally when a business spends money producing a valuable asset, it is required to depreciate the cost to acquire the asset over the useful life. If a business pays people to create a new building, that is depreciated over 20 years. Even if it was paid for as salaries of employees, it isn't a special situation unique to software engineering.

  • TulliusCicero 7 days ago

    I don't think that's quite right? The value of the asset itself is depreciated over years, sure, but the payroll itself for the employees is just an immediate expense.

    • phkahler 7 days ago

      How can you compare a purchased asset to one you pay people to build?

  • commandlinefan 7 days ago

    But isn't the reasoning there that you could turn around and sell that building right away?

    • gnopgnip 7 days ago

      The reasoning behind depreciation is matching the income produced by the valuable asset, not really about resale value.

      Presumably the value for tax purposes is based on the cost because the cost is harder to manipulate for something like software. Like some big box stores argue under the "dark store" theory they should be valued for much less because they have restrictive covenants banning competitors from using the property if sold, or that vacant property should be used as comparables.

davidgay 7 days ago

This description is misleading (as many of them seem to be), because you're only describing the first year.

After 5 years of constant expenses, the deductions match the costs. If expenses diminish, deductions exceed costs.

-> this is bad (in the short term) for companies that are growing.

  • eslaught 7 days ago

    Or any company in its first 5 years of operation. (Or any company, period, within the first 5 years of the law being introduced.)

    It takes 5 years to fill the pipeline, so even if the steady state would be fine, getting to that state might be impossible.

    • PaulDavisThe1st 7 days ago

      > Or any company in its first 5 years of operation.

      No! Any company (with software development expenses) for the first 5 years after Sec 174 went into effect!

  • [removed] 7 days ago
    [deleted]
  • digitaltrees 7 days ago

    Most startups won’t make it five years especially if they have to raise or borrow money to pay taxes on phantom profit.

    There is no rational basis for this tax change it was a vindictive attack on blue states in the first Trump admin and an attack on California and SV in particular along with the SALT tax changes.

    • andrewlgood 6 days ago

      For startups that don’t make it five years the issue is moot. Expensing the software developers compensation in year 1 rather than over years 1-5 simply creates a larger taxable loss which creates a Net Operating Loss on the balance sheet which could be used in a future, profitable year. As NOLs can expire and have rules regarding how quickly they can be used and whether they can be sold, capitalizing the R&D could be a better answer for some firms.

    • hn_acc1 7 days ago

      This. They hate CA and will do anything to try to make them look bad because we call out their BS. See Los Angeles right now as an example.

  • dsizzle 7 days ago

    It's also bad because of the time value of money (deductions in the future are worth less than deductions now).

    But I agree that much of the outrage seems due to a confusion that 80% of the deduction is lost completely (vs deferred).

miroljub 6 days ago

The reasoning here is completely flawed. You don't buy a software dev, you rent him. His salary is an operational expense, that should be deductible in a year it was paid.

Now, let's imagine a company buys a slave. It's one time capital investment, like buying a car or a machine, and you need to depreciate the cost over multiple years.

The only way it makes sense to treat software developers as a capital investment instead of an operational cost is if they were treated legally as slaves. And slavery is not legal any more. Or is it?

  • kgwgk 6 days ago

    Exactly. That’s why when a company builds a factory it’s considered a capital investment. Because it’s built by slaves. It’s not like the workers are being paid for their labor or anything.

    • [removed] 6 days ago
      [deleted]
ojbyrne 6 days ago

Slight amendment. It's actually a little worse than you describe. Like a machine, if this is amortized over 5 years, it's subject to the "half-year convention" - the assumption is made (to keep things simple) that the engineer is hired at the exact midpoint of the year.

So for your example of a $200k salary amortized over 5 years, you can only deduct $20k the first year, then $40k, $40k, $40k, $40k, and then the final $20k in the sixth year.

logifail 7 days ago

> Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit [..]

I'm not sure it's helpful to simplify quite that much, doesn't this usually depend on whether we're talking about operating expenses (typically rent, utilities, salaries, supplies) or capital expenditures (typically buildings, land, intangibles...)?

  • GavinMcG 7 days ago

    It found it helpful that it was presented that simply. The point isn’t what else is or isn’t deductible, it’s that engineering salaries went from being deductible to being amortized.

    • logifail 7 days ago

      Businesses don't get to say they're claiming "$900k in costs" ... it depends on what kind of costs... EDIT: and in this instance, it depends on what kind of software engineering.

      • organsnyder 7 days ago

        But why is software engineering treated specially, here? Does Disney have to pay taxes on film animators the same way, given that they're developing a capital asset?

        • PaulDavisThe1st 7 days ago

          Probably that is a large, rich field, and when you crunch the numbers, collecting corporate income taxes on 80% of essentially all s/w developer salaries in the first year after it goes into effect was a nice push to the CBO numbers related to Trump's 2017 tax cuts.

      • [removed] 7 days ago
        [deleted]
      • NickHirras 7 days ago

        This is what's happened at my workplace. We account for time spent working on developing new products differently that development time maintaining legacy applications. Because they are reported for tax purposes differently.

api 7 days ago

Doesn’t this also unfairly penalize bootstrapped companies? VC track companies seldom have taxable profits.

  • davidjfelix 6 days ago

    It may result in an outsized penalty to bootstrapped companies but being VC funded doesn't make you immune to this. VC funded companies with revenue will not be able to offset their revenue by reinvesting in R&D (software development) expenses, so in some cases they may be seen as having a profit when they previously wouldn't have. In those cases they'd have a tax burden.

e40 7 days ago

> you have to depreciate that over several years (5 in this case).

15 years in the case of foreign developers.

  • procaryote 7 days ago

    So implicitly Trump values foreign developers at 3x domestic ones

bambax 6 days ago

If true, that's a very convincing explanation of why this new rule is wrong.

I'm not a US taxpayer so my opinion really is irrelevant, but I was so far in the camp of "there's no reason to make a special case for big tech".

But if what happened is actually the reverse, ie, the rule makes a special case of tech/developers and pretends their salary is not a cost but an investment, that's clearly absurd and indefensible.

Havoc 6 days ago

Tax authorities tend to look at income side rather than expense as you are. If this thing has a useful life and gives benefit over 5 years thus you get tax deductions over 5 years.

So comes down to whether you view a software engineer as something that has value only in the moment (like HR person) or as creating an enduring asset (code base).

A good code base obviously has long term value and there is no raw material input, just engineer time.

Either way you end up with awkward mismatches somewhere & the deferred version as you say has undesirable chilling effects, but I don't think it is entirely without merit either. Think of it from tax man perspective: They're being asked to hand out 100% of the tax credit today while receiving the income over years time. Switching this back to old model doesn't make the mismatch go away - just shifts it to taxman.

jmyeet 7 days ago

So the 2017 tax cuts that introduced this change were a massive boon to US companies, particularly the tax holiday on repatriated foreign profits.

So why do we need to give these large, very profitable companies another tax cut?

Or maybe we should be asking, what of the 2017 tax cuts are they willing to give up to pay for this change?

Remember that after a few years, none of this matters. You might be paying $200k in salary to an engineer and can only deduct $40k, but you're also making deductions "earned" in previous years?

Basically, I reject the argument that this change is responsible for layoffs. It is not. And changing it won't lead to a hiring binge. Layoffs exist to suppress wages in these largest employers.

Maybe we should allow a 100% software development tax deduction if the company hasn't fired more than 1-2% of its workforce in the last calendar year. Or maybe only if the workforce is unionized.

This whole thing is so anti-worker. It doesn't have to be this way.

  • 8note 7 days ago

    for the big companies, this makes enough sense, but theres been new businesses opened since 2017, who did not benefit from that tax holiday. why should they be dealimg with this tax hike for everytime they grow their business?

    i dont know how this is anti-worker? it's an extra cost to growing the number of people youre hiring, where you need them for 5 years. i guess businesses should start witholding RSUs and starting bonuses until youve been there for 5 years to match your tax ammortization?

bravesoul2 7 days ago

ELI5: why is this blowing up on HN this particular week in 2025. Is there a trigger? As it has been known about for a while.

  • echelon 7 days ago

    It's actively being discussed in Congress and is a part of OBBBA.

    " H.R.1990 - American Innovation and R&D Competitiveness Act of 2025 "

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/1990...

    > A bipartisan bill reintroduced in Congress last month could offer long-awaited relief to small tech companies hit hardest by an obscure federal tax change — one that many founders say is threatening their survival.

    > Industry groups from the Small Software Business Alliance to the National Venture Capital Association and TECNA are backing the bill, which sits in committee. Over 100 House members have signed on. The bill would reverse the changes not just going forward, but also retroactively.

    https://technical.ly/startups/r-d-tax-change-reversal-startu...

    > On May 13, the House Ways and Means Committee passed “The One, Big Beautiful Bill.” This bill includes several provisions that, if enacted, will be important to businesses claiming research and development incentives:

    > The bill would suspend the current amortization requirement for domestic R&D expenses and allow companies to fully deduct domestic research costs in the year incurred for tax years beginning January 1, 2025 and ending December 31, 2029.

    https://www.crowell.com/en/insights/client-alerts/house-comm...

    > The OBBBA suspends required capitalization of domestic research and experimental expenditures for amounts paid or incurred in taxable years beginning after December 31, 2024, and before January 1, 2030. Under the OBBBA, at the taxpayer’s election, such expenditures can be: deducted as paid or incurred under new Section 174A(a),

    https://www.skadden.com/insights/publications/2025/05/the-on...

    • threeseed 7 days ago

      So is the idea here that the tech community should support the Big Beautiful Bill ?

      Because that would be just typical.

    • rkagerer 7 days ago

      I'm confused. The requirement to amortize software engineer expenses was introduced in Trump's first term, but now he wants to revoke it in OBBBA? But only for 5 years?

      • Reason077 7 days ago

        Besides "kicking the can" to another administration, the 5 year thing is a hack to get budget legislation past the CBO.

        The CBO calculates costs over 10 years, so if you introduce a tax cut that sunsets after 5 years it looks much less bad (for the deficit) than it really is. Then you hope that in 5 years some other legislation comes along to renew it for another 5 years...

      • throwaway562if1 7 days ago

        It was passed in 2017 to go into effect in 2023. Trump now wants to suspend it until 2029. You may notice that in both cases it is being passed under a Republican-controlled executive but goes into effect under the next administration. This is the point.

rayiner 7 days ago

> Normally, when you have expenses, you deduct them off your revenue to find your taxable profit. If you have $1 million in sales, and $900k in costs, you have $100k in profit, and the government taxes you on that profit.

This is an incomplete description. The ordinary rule depends on the nature of the expenditure. If your expense is for building an asset that generates recurring revenue—including paying people to build such an asset—then you cannot immediately deduct that expense. Instead, you must depreciate it over the lifetime of the asset.

The issue here is that software development is sometimes genuine R&D and other times more like building an income producing asset. E.g. if you spend money building infrastructure software to move bits from one place to another, that’s more like a factory building a conveyer belt than it is like investing in fundamental pharmaceutical research.

EFreethought 7 days ago

Maybe this is a dumb question, but if you only deduct part of their salary in the first year, what happens if you have a software developer for several years?

And then what happens after five years if they are still around?

  • eadmund 7 days ago

    > Maybe this is a dumb question, but if you only deduct part of their salary in the first year, what happens if you have a software developer for several years?

    Not dumb at all! In the second year, you get to deduct ⅕th of the previous year’s salary and ⅕th of the current year’s salary; likewise, in the third year you get to deduct ⅕th of the first year’s salary, ⅕th of the second year’s salary and ⅕th of the third year’s salary.

    The key thing is that in the fifth and following years, a business would deduct a fifth of each of the previous five year’s engineering payrolls. This is not great for a growing business, but it’s murder on a startup trying to grow from zero.

    • chermi 7 days ago

      Thus firmly placing this in the regulatory capture category.

  • stonemetal12 7 days ago

    After five years you are back to the status quo. It is a short term problem, long term there is no difference between the two. It primarily hurts young companies that don't take VC money, and shortens the runway of those who do.

    • lsaferite 7 days ago

      It also affects hiring growth because every net new dev starts a new 5-year runway.

    • sarchertech 7 days ago

      It is much worse for young companies for sure, but it’s not great for any company.

      You’re forgoing returns on .1 * salary * tax rate for 5 years, .2 * salary * tax rate for 4 years… for every software dev in the company.

hinkley 7 days ago

Let's be honest. At a bunch of shops the engineers hired in year 2 will never be properly recouped because the company will be out of business in less than 7 years.

  • digitaltrees 7 days ago

    Start ups are hard, most fail. But what rational national policy makes is several orders of magnitude harder to succeed during the riskiest period by adding tax provisions on pretend profits?

    • mixermachine 7 days ago

      Seems like the incentive is to make as little profits as possible at the start to avoid being killed by taxes. I would have expected an exclusion for companies that make below X dollars or are less then Y years old.

      • amendegree 3 days ago

        Any incoming revenue, whether from sales or investment is theoretically taxable as income unless the company can show that it was used for an exemption such as an op-expense. This rule classifies dev salaries as cap-ex which have a different exemption process. “Profits” are just revenue minus expenses, the question is what is an expense. This rule classifies some expenses in a modified way that lowers the annual amount of the company’s expenses raising their tax liability.

Ajedi32 7 days ago

I agree this sounds like bad policy, but what's the logic for doing this with actual capital goods then? Doesn't that have exactly the same problem of limiting corporate investment?

  • shoxidizer 7 days ago

    The reasoning is that the deductions for expenses should be applied for the same year as the income they bring in. For expenses that will cover multiple years, they are spread out over those years.

  • rawgabbit 7 days ago

    The only logic was to make the Trump 2017 tax cuts look "revenue neutral". They were cooking the books so the CBO would give the tax cuts a passing grade.

    https://americansfortaxfairness.org/ways-means-trump-tax-law... Quote: Corporations have traditionally been allowed to deduct all of their research expenses in the year incurred, even though a lot of research pays off slowly so its costs should similarly be written off over time. Adopting this position, and as a way to partially pay for its big corporate-rate cut, the Trump-GOP tax law decreed that starting in 2022 companies would have to write off research and experimentation expenses gradually: over five years for domestic research, 15 years for foreign. This requirement to “amortize” the expense over time reduces the value of the deduction, increasing corporations’ taxable income and requiring them to pay more in income taxes upfront. The Ways & Means legislation proposes to retroactively reverse this provision.

  • SoftTalker 7 days ago

    Accounting likes to recognize expenses with revenues. If an asset will be producing revenue for five years, its cost is recognized over that same time span.

    • aaronax 7 days ago

      So...don't you get value from the newly created software for ~5 years?

      • atmavatar 7 days ago

        That's going to heavily depend on the type of software and whether it's sold as a shrinkwrap product or a subscription.

        For example: your average AAA game will likely produce the vast majority of its value inside the first year upon its release.

        At the extreme opposite end you have things like enterprise software using subscriptions, whereby the software continues to produce value year over year, but you're generally also paying developers' salaries to maintain and enhance the softare year over year. That, too, makes little sense in spreading out salaries as a cost over 5 years.

        I can't really think of any cases where a piece of software is sold as shrinkwrap software, requires no ongoing maintenance/updates, and is expected to continue earning revenue for many years afterward. That just isn't the industry we live in.

        • PaulDavisThe1st 7 days ago

          > At the extreme opposite end you have things like enterprise software using subscriptions, whereby the software continues to produce value year over year, but you're generally also paying developers' salaries to maintain and enhance the softare year over year. That, too, makes little sense in spreading out salaries as a cost over 5 years.

          There's also a ship-of-theseus problem here. How much change has to happen to a codebase before it's not the same software anymore?

      • Nevermark 7 days ago

        The answer to that question can only be reliably answered in 5 years.

        Actual honest valuation of software is something that requires actual evidence.

        Software returns have extremely high variance. From a lot, to none, to high negative (For projects that don't complete, or worse, deploy to negative effect.)

        • jameshart 7 days ago

          Yep, some software systems become money pits. You end up having to pay more people to keep them running.

          Only now if those people you have to pay to keep them running are software developers, you have to act like the money you’re spending on them is helping make new value, not merely paying interest on technical debt. Fun!

littlestymaar 7 days ago

This rule is actually desired by most (non-startups) businesses, software being an investment over a long run it makes sense to amortize the cost over several years.

It is indeed detrimental to startups though, as they can end up paying taxes even when not profitable and when cash is the key issue (which isn't the case that much for most businesses).

TZubiri 7 days ago

Mmh

If I paid salary of 100k, and invested 100k. Then I made 0 profit regardless, actually I would have a loss of 100k?

I guess the difference comes in if I made 200k, so I would have a profit of 100k.

Not sure how it affects the pnl, but is it fair to say it doesn't affect total tax, just distributes it more evenly across years?

santiagobasulto 7 days ago

What happens if you outsource all that to an "offshore" company? Is it considered an expense?

jajko 7 days ago

Why not claim them as: admins, devops, analysts, testers, technicians, managers? Probably few more. Its really about precisely software development roles? Don't we anyway do some of that other stuff regardless?

But if you are correct that is supremely dumb, especially in place like US.

  • OneDeuxTriSeiGo 7 days ago

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/174

    > (3) Software development

    > For purposes of this section, any amount paid or incurred in connection with the development of any software shall be treated as a research or experimental expenditure.

    Strictly speaking every single one of those jobs falls under that role. If you "develop" any software, which arguably includes even making or maintaining excel spreadsheets (as excel is a graphical array lang inspired by APL), then you seem to fall under this umbrella.

    • buzer 7 days ago

      Wouldn't "in connection" make this actually extremely broad? For example I doubt C-level executives have 0 connection to software development during the year. They likely make official or unofficial feature requests or give feedback. And if we really push that definition, if the software collected telemetry automatically from the user interactions and this data was then used to improve the software, wouldn't just using the software be connected with the development of the said software?

    • logifail 7 days ago

      > Strictly speaking every single one of those jobs falls under that role

      Q: Isn't this about whether you're doing "R&D" or not?

      • jandrewrogers 7 days ago

        No, it classifies all software development as R&D by definition.

fuzztester 7 days ago

>Depreciating means that if you pay an engineer $200k in a year, in tax-world you only had $40k of real expense that year, even though you paid them $200k.

what happens if an engineer leaves after the first year, or at any other time?

what happens to the calculations then?

  • kgwgk 6 days ago

    Nothing. The calculation has nothing to do with people. It’s about what the company spends - and some kind of spending is capitalized depending on what activity it was related to and what the output was. That doesn’t change if the employee that you paid a salary to leaves, or the company that you bought materials from disappears, etc.

dgs_sgd 7 days ago

> It was passed by Congress during the first Trump administration in order to offset the costs of other corporate tax rate cuts, due to budgeting rules.

Wow, so there isn’t really a good faith steel man for this? They were just like, hey, we need to offset other cuts so let’s arbitrarily pick a high paying profession that, not so coincidentally doesn’t have a lot of influence in government, and let them take the hit?

  • andrewlgood 6 days ago

    I think it was more along the line that R&D had been formally encouraged with special expensing rules and in 2017 they removed the special treatment.

formercoder 6 days ago

Wouldn’t this make the $200k drop below EBIT and thus increase accrual accounting profitability? Sure it could be less cash efficient but generally capitalizing expenses is net favorable.

jfernandezr 6 days ago

Wow, initially I thought this was the typical libertarian thing to pay less taxes. But thanks to your explanation, I see that the scheme is absolutely crazy. Software devs salaries, as any other employee, should be considered an expense.

But, in a second thought, if you sell a software that you hand crafted to a single customer, in Spain, the software enterprise currently deducts all salaries, while the customer has to depreciate the cost. Think about that in the likes of building an expensive machine: the manufacturer deducts all costs while the customer has to depreciate the machine cost over 20 years.

So the question is, how should a software development piece be considered when it's used internally? Why if you sell that software to others have a tax implication different than if you yourself use it?

That's a very difficult question to answer with too many edges.

waynesonfire 7 days ago

So, after 5 years, they can deduct the entire salary.. this just seems like an incentive to promote long-term employment. Doesn't seem like a bad incentive.

  • jmtulloss 7 days ago

    No, this is not how it works. They can still deduct the entire first year of salary even if the person is let go, as that salary is considered a capital expense. There is no incentive to keep the person on payroll because of this policy.

  • optymizer 7 days ago

    Well, we had massive layoffs, so I don't think the incentives worked.

bung33 7 days ago

The idea that this is leading to mass developer layoffs is an overstatement.

The total amount spent will ultimately be expensed, whether immediately or over five years. The sole impact is on the time value of money, which I don't believe warrants the current scale of developer dismissals.

Also, the claim that taxes are levied even during a deficit seems incorrect. While I'm not familiar with US tax law, it's typically possible to carry forward losses.

For example, if a developer is hired for five years at $100 annually, the expensed amount in the fifth year would still be $100, even after any legal changes.

  • procaryote 7 days ago

    It means you need more money early, to pay taxes on theoretical future profits. That means it costs more. That means you can afford less on the same money. That means that you need to lay off people to maintain the same costs.

the-rc 7 days ago

Does it apply to solo companies that provide software consulting to others? I guess it doesn't for S-Corps, because of passthrough, but might for C-Corps?

  • jameshart 7 days ago

    If you sold the software asset to another company you don’t get an asset on your books.

    • the-rc 6 days ago

      Right, that's more clear cut with proprietary software, but what about open source code?

lakeeffect 7 days ago

I don't want to downplay what you're saying but many of these costs are eligible for R and d credits unlike most other employees salaries.

phkahler 7 days ago

How are software engineers different than other people on payroll? Can't they be deducted the same way as accountants or other functions?

  • rbultje 6 days ago

    > Can't they be deducted the same way as accountants or other functions?

    No.

gamblor956 6 days ago

Section 174 just brings the treatment of software engineers in line with the way that manufacturing labor is treated in all other industries. If tech hadn't exploited this loophole so hard to invade other industries, the GOP probably wouldn't have tried to close the loophole in 2017.

That being said...the current version of the bill would temporarily pause the current version of section 174 (capitalization of software labor costs). There's no way for them to make the original treatment permanent without adding another trillion or so to the cost of their mega bill.

However, the original reason for that temporary reprieve was that Musk was still Trump's best buddy at the time. Right now, it's the most likely target for getting cut in the reconciliation negotiations between the House and the Senate. Thus, YC reaching out to its readers to support this abomination of legislation.

fergie 7 days ago

That does sound insane, but what is the argument in favor? Genuinely curious.

spullara 7 days ago

They are just product managers and the development is being done by AI agents.

  • teeray 7 days ago

    You jest, but you’ve also touched upon something interesting. Is this exactly what companies are trying to do? To the IRS: “We employ zero software engineers—only AI ranch hands to wrangle the AI in the right direction.”

    • spullara 6 days ago

      not really jesting, just a message from the future