Comment by edent

Comment by edent 7 months ago

76 replies

The law can't bind future lawmakers. That's a common feature of every legal system.

Any legal system can pass a law saying "we revoke this previous law".

AnthonyMouse 7 months ago

This is what constitutions are for. When you have the support, you install a constitutional protection that says the government can't do this. Repealing the protection requires the same super-majority needed to pass it, so changing the law isn't just a matter of the tyrants needing to get back to 51% from 49%, they have to get from 33% to 67%.

Then you layer these protections against multiple levels of government so they'd all have to be repealed together by separate legislatures before the government is allowed to do it, discouraging the attempt.

  • Aeolun 7 months ago

    Hah, I was going to say that sounded needlessly heavy handed.

    Then I checked what the Netherlands does and found that changing the constitution doesn’t merely require you to get a majority, it also requires you to survive at least one election and keep that (super)majority before you can even begin.

    • AndrewDavis 7 months ago

      Even that sounds easy compared to my country. In Australia a constitutional change requires a referendum, with a double majority condition to pass. Specifically it requires the vote in over half the states to be in favour, in addition to the overall national vote in favour.

      • klardotsh 7 months ago

        That described Dutch system also sounds relatively easy compared to the US model, which requires 2/3 votes in each chamber of Congress (meaning the people-based one and the land-based one), *then* 3/4 of the states (so another land-based check) have to ratify it.

        Functionally this means that in the modern political climate, the US Constitution is fully frozen with no hope of amendment really ever again.

    • Deukhoofd 7 months ago

      Also note that The Netherlands frequently does constitution changes, even with that complexity. Our current version for example dates from 2022, when (among other changes) the secrecy of correspondence was amended to include all telecommunication, as it only included communication of letter, phone, and telegraph before that.

      https://www.denederlandsegrondwet.nl/id/vlxuov0ja0xh/grondwe...

    • beng-nl 7 months ago

      Please reboot your government for the changes to take effect.

  • Youden 7 months ago

    I'd argue that this is unnecessary in Switzerland due to the existing referendum system.

    After the government passes a new law, opponents have 100 days to collect 50000 signatures. If they manage, the law will not take force until it's approved by a vote by the populace.

    • AnthonyMouse 7 months ago

      The way authoritarianism work is they pick some enemy to rally against and convince people that the ends of stopping that evil justify the means of becoming evil. The problem with this is that it can garner 51% support within the population for temporary periods of time, so you need a system that can prevent it even in that environment. This typically means that violations of fundamental rights should require significantly more than 51% popular support or require changes in public sentiment to stick for a period of time before they can make foundational changes (e.g. only a third of the US Senate being up for election every two years).

    • SllX 7 months ago

      > After the government passes a new law, opponents have 100 days to collect 50000 signatures. If they manage, the law will not take force until it's approved by a vote by the populace.

      I generally hate ballot propositions within the context of California (or American States really, but I put my energy towards the State I actually live in and care the most about), but that's an interesting way to do it. Have there been any significant downsides to this specific clause[1] in Switzerland?

      [1] Let me emphasize: "this specific clause" being the one I quoted. I'm not looking for a general discussion on all forms of ballot propositions whether pro or anti.

      • dbrgn 7 months ago

        Downside: Sometimes laws can be delayed for 1+ years due to a referendum. The political process is slower and big reforms are much harder.

        Upside: Lawmakers need to write balanced laws or they face threats of referendum signature collection from other parties or civil organizations. Often in political discussions you hear that "position X won't stand a chance in a referendum". That is a good thing.

    • j45 7 months ago

      Or if there was a law clarifying not to tread on privacy if that’s what the population has latest indicated, this kind of effort wouldn’t always need yo be wasted.

      Asking the unpaid population to put in free labour all the time seems like a deterrent.

      • hluska 7 months ago

        Democracy is fundamentally about putting in free labour. That’s just how it works, from the lowliest municipal elections up to federal. It’s a lot of unpaid labour.

        That system works and has worked for a long time.

  • greyw 7 months ago

    In Switzerland you can change the constitution with popular votes. That only requires for 50% of the voters to agree and half of the cantons.

    • AnthonyMouse 7 months ago

      Then get half the voters to agree to make it two thirds. After you put the other protections in, naturally.

      • philistine 7 months ago

        You’re arguing for massive changes to a very unique country with the oldest democracy in Europe. Unless you’re Swiss, or have credentials related to Swiss law, I don’t think you’re arguing anything realistic.

      • im3w1l 7 months ago

        Requiring 50% in a referendum is different from and safer than requiring 50% in a parliament vote. A parliament can go against the people that elected them.

    • j45 7 months ago

      It sounds so easy to do

  • dspillett 7 months ago

    Constitutions can still be ignored, at least temporarily, by incumbent governments, as evidenced most recently by some actions of the current US administration.

    Also, the sort of majority needed to enact a constitution change to install a protection in the first place, can be very difficult to attain.

  • timeflex 7 months ago

    And then you make it so when the tyrants do get back to 51% that they can just ignore the constitution instead. And might as well make sure there are only two major political parties so even though the tyrants ignore the constitution, that the other 49% will stay busy stuffing their pockets with foreign donations.

    • AnthonyMouse 7 months ago

      These are independent problems.

      To prevent the government from ignoring the constitution, create remedies in each of the other branches of government. The US doesn't make this as strong as it should be. Constitutional challenges in the judiciary get shut down as a result of standing or sovereign immunity when that ought not to happen, and there should be a better mechanism for states to challenge federal constitutional violations.

      The two-party system in the US is caused by first past the post voting. Use score voting instead. Not IRV, not some other nonsense, a rated voting system that removes the structural incentive to avoid spoilers by limiting the number of parties.

      "The existing system isn't perfect" is why you improve it, not why you give up.

      • nerdsniper 7 months ago

        Approval voting is also worth considering, where you put a checkmark in the box for any candidate you’d be okay with. Advantage over ranked choice is that communicating the scoring to citizens is simple: “$CANDIDATE received the most checkmarks.” Whereas with ranked voting, the person who gets the most #1’s might not win and that can confuse some citizens.

        Approval voting would result in “the okay-est” candidate winning rather than anyone towards an extreme winning in the primaries. Works well when there are a lot of fairly similar milquetoast candidates that split votes, like the Republican primaries of 2015.

  • brnt 7 months ago

    Constitutions are amended all the time. The French even have a proces for reboots of the Republic.

    These are goods things.

    • puzzledobserver 7 months ago

      The Indian Supreme Court introduced the Basic Structure Doctrine in 1970, allowing the judiciary to overrule constitutional amendments if they are found to contradict the "basic structure" of the constitution.

      It's original purpose, if I understand correctly, was to guarantee that fundamental rights were an essential part of the constitution and couldn't be amended away.

      Wikipedia says that multiple countries appear to have adopted the principle: Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Uganda.

    • landl0rd 7 months ago

      No it's not. Constitutions are the bones of a republic. They are the framework that gives the government power and that checks that power. Letting it mess with that too much or too often is bad.

      Constitutions should be simple. They should delegate very little power to governments and focus mostly on constraining those governments. They should be changed very rarely.

      Adaptable government with changing scopes belongs at lower levels of governance (mostly very local) or nowhere.

      • maigret 7 months ago

        France disagrees. They iterated 5 times on it and it fixed big flaws each time.

        What keeps a country in check is not a constitution but a politically informed and active population. The US shows us right now that the constitution is just a piece of paper.

    • tekla 7 months ago

      Constitutions that are easy to amend are basically universally a piece of toilet paper.

  • flir 7 months ago

    That's how you ossify.

    • AnthonyMouse 7 months ago

      If preventing the government from abusing the population is ossification then the government should be made entirely out of bones.

beeflet 7 months ago

In the USA we have amendments to the constitution, which take considerable political effort to change. These amendments can restrict the types of laws that may be passed.

This system works because the changes are not just recorded in the paper of some lawbook, but in the minds of the people.

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_Algernon_ 7 months ago

This is not true in practice. Inertia and international law / agreements bind future lawmakers. If one government joins the EU, the next still has to follow EU law even if EU law changes.

j45 7 months ago

An existing law can be different to change, than where non exists and its greenfield for something half baked to roll in.

Hard_Space 7 months ago

This was my understanding, which is why I was so surprised to read of Trump's edict preventing state-level AI laws for ten years.