Assignment 5: Cars and Key Fobs (2021)
(web.stanford.edu)234 points by Pikamander2 3 months ago
234 points by Pikamander2 3 months ago
I believe this was ratified into a standard so it should show up in more new cars. https://carconnectivity.org/car-connectivity-consortium-publ...
For the time being, I just store my keys in a little cast iron dutch oven, sitting on top of the fridge.
It's extremely effective as a shield for the 125kHz LF wake-up signal, and I've been unable to elicit a response when they're in there, even with a relay setup that reliably wakes them up from several feet away otherwise.
I just don't understand why manufacturers don't follow Volvo on this - their keyless keys just go to sleep if they aren't moved for a few seconds, and they won't respond to any signal while sitting on a table for example.
That solves part of the problem, but doesn't help when you're in a supermarket or any other event where you're moving around.
My previous cars had keys that I could manually switch off and on, which is also not a full solution because it only works for people who take the effort to always do that, but at least it gives people to opportunity to complete prevent relay attacks.
All in all I'm not a big fan of key-less entry. Having to press a button on a key to gain entry can maybe be a bit of an annoyance, but in my opinion it's not a big deal compared to the advantage of completely preventing relay attacks.
My previous car(a Mercedes) had a very very simple solution to this - you clicked on the lock button twice and it just disabled the keyless entry entirely until you pressed any other button.
>>the advantage of completely preventing relay attacks.
From my understanding ToF sensors are good enough now to completely prevent relay attacks, the added time for the relay just adds too much of a delay and it gets rejected. I believe the newest range rovers use that, they went from being extremely susceptible to relay attacks to relay attacks against them being impossible.
For anyone interested, with all keyless entry Subarus in the US it’s easy to put the fob to sleep.
If you’re car camping and doing a lot of stuff around your car and opening the doors a bunch for a couple hours, you probably want to put your fob to sleep. Found out the hard way, but my battery was also a bit iffy to start with that year.
maybe so, but this would seemingly solve most of the problem with easy to implement tech
the real test is to find out if this effectively eliminated all fob hacks for volvo since they may not be faster than the tiger, they just need to be faster than everyone else...
Likewise, I wish my phone had a setting to mute Amber Alerts while the phone's been motionless for a long time. It's sleeping, I'm sleeping, blasting me with an emergency tone at 4:45am is not going to help anyone. But yes if I'm actually out and about, by all means, I'd be happy to help, I don't want to turn them off entirely.
Such common sense, yet so uncommon.
Except phone based keys are terrible in many other ways
I learn something new here every day.
- I ain’t cut out to be Jessie James -You don’t go writing hot checks down in Mississippi - Dutch oven has a non fart meaning
My father used to be a prosecutor in MS, and one of my earliest going-to-work-with-dad memories is watching him sign off on warrants for people writing hot checks. I asked him once if he thought that was a bit heavy-handed and he gave me a very stern lecture about people who write hot checks.
So yeah, don't do that in Mississippi.
My mother told me I would end up in massive unrecoverable debt if I didn’t keep my check book balanced, and if I kept it up for too long I would be arrested for fraud. She was from MS, so that tracks.
My prev comment was just quoting Johnny Cash. Had I thought about it, I probably would have assumed that “writing hot checks” was in the song because it’s sort of an amateur crime that landed him in the prison where he learned his lessons. Of course it has to be Mississippi for the chain gang reference.
Funnily enough, I think that's the first time I heard that Dutch oven has another meaning, beyond the cooking apparatus.
I have a 2021 Toyota that I lost one of two key fobs. Toyota has a strict policy that only Toyota dealerships can program key fobs for their newer cars, so buying a key fob replacement from a 3rd party was not an option. Total out of pocket expense for getting new key fob, programming that key fob to the car, and making sure the other fob still worked; cost about $550. I feel that is an absurd amount of money to spend because of a lost fob. I appreciate people looking into and exposing weaknesses of car fobs because it might expose ways to circumvent the monopolistic costs associated with replacements. Wish there was a way to retrofit my car to use Ultra Wide Bandwidth as a key.
Essentially all manufacturers have that policy, because key replacement is a profit center for dealerships. Independent auto locksmiths depend on third-party programming tools and keys by companies like Autel and Xhorse. There's a constant game of cat-and-mouse, with manufacturers developing new immobilizer systems and the third-party companies reverse-engineering those systems. An auto locksmith with the right equipment should be able to copy a key, remote or keyless fob for any current US Toyota model.
Two locks smiths told me that only the dealership can program a fob for a 2021 Toyota Sienna.
Used to be, you could get a seedy OBD cable off Amazon and it came with instructions on how to "acquire" the dealer software, which let you reprogram the car to accept any fob. Not sure if things have changed in the last 5 years.
All other things equal, the easier it is to steal your car, the higher your insurance premium will be.
Agreed, but it’s a risk/return decision. In my city, car theft is like 80% less than it was 20 years ago. 60% of stolen cars are running in the driveway (warming up in the winter), and 20% of the cars in the peak year a few years ago were Hyundai/Kia with the egregiously bad locks.
Good enough to stop crackheads is my desire in this space. Doubling the cost of a $400 key to reduce my chances of a loss by 3% is a hard no.
Vulnerabilities like this lead to car thefts. Some models of cars are more susceptible than others, and the manufacturers seem unwilling to fix the problem. The insurance companies know which models are more trouble for them, and so they set higher rates for these, which punishes the driver/owner for something outside of their control.
My solution? Require the manufacturers of vulnerable models to pay the insurance on behalf of the driver/owner as long as the vulnerabilities go unfixed.
part of what helps is, at least, before buying a car, to get insurance quotes and then you see the true cost of THAT car
Consumer Reports will also inform you of things like this in advance, if you look. (For this and 100 other reasons, It's worth paying for a digital sub.)
Consumer Reports reporting is bought and paid for by the OEMs. They'll make a big issue out of nothing or minimize real issues depending on where the money is coming from. This goes back at least as far as the Samurai rollover scandal.
Pretty much all industry journalism where the journalists depend on being in the good graces of the manufacturers to get the access they need to make their content is like this.
My friends Truck was stolen by some people with a tow truck. Key access doesn't really matter in the long run.
If you want to prevent theft, you have to make stealing "expensive" enough for people not to bother with it.
There are phone thieves in San Francisco/Oakland literally driving Audis and BMWs. Trucks bring in a lot of value. A tow truck is also inconspicuous looking, people can think its a repo truck or towing someone parked illegally.
A (new enough) tow truck screams "I have an ongoing business relationship with people who have badges, guns and letters of marque that give them permission to ruin and/or end your life at their discretion" which is really why none of the people who would perhaps bother a common thief or stick their nose in anything out of the ordinary will get near a tow truck.
You could roll up to a parking lot with active security and snatch something with a tow truck and they won't bother you most of the time whereas if you rolled up to engage in swapping a battery or some other legitimate repair they'd probably at least come over and ask what you're up to.
Do people not look at the operating costs before buying a vehicle? Do they really just negotiate a monthly payment and get surprised at the amount they have to pay for fuel/maintenance/insurance?
When I bought my most recent car I had a spreadsheet which projected fuel (whether that's gas, electricity, or gas+electricity) and maintenance costs (there was some ball-parking here) for a dozen different models based on our driving habits. Once the list was narrowed down a bit I did some online quotes at my insurance company to add that in.
There were no financial surprises when I bought the car.
This is unnecessarily self-congratulating. The problem is that vulnerabilities are found in cars after they are on the market for a while and already purchased, so existing owners get their rates hiked, but the manufacturer never fixes the issue. No amount of research is going to guarantee your operating cost next year.
BTW, car keys (physical keys) are notoriously weak, generally susceptible to simple raking attacks. You can learn how to rake a lock in a few minutes, and the rake+tensioner itself costs around $5. And all cars include a physical key as a backup entry method. This was partially solved by adding another device that cuts off the engine, the immobilizer, which still allows the attacker to get in, but not to drive off.
> And all cars include a physical key as a backup entry method.
Which means you are safer with just keys rather than keys plus another way to open the doors.
> This was partially solved by adding another device that cuts off the engine, the immobilizer
If they key does not need to be physically inserted to start the engine (which is true in many cars) then that is liable to attack using the remotes too, right?
The thing is if you have time to rake a car lock, you can also just break the window if you're going to rob the interior.
The key fob attack is superior since no one looks twice if you walk up to a car, it unlocks from a hand held device and then you get in and drive off.
With practice raking doesn't take that much time and "usually" comes with the benefit of not tripping the alarm that the door was opened (because the car "thinks" the door has just been unlocked with a key).
<EDIT> Seems HN has different experiences with their cars then my own, So I'll concede the idea that the alarm doesn't trip when using the key. It seems the cars I've had in the past are the exception to the rule. </EDIT>
The thing is, in the real world, no one really looks twice when someone gets into a car unless they are using obvious brute force to get into the car.
I had a non electronic key cut for my Jeep so I could zip tie it under the frame for emergency use. It will not start the engine, but does open the door locks. When I open the doors with it, the alarm goes off.
It is superior, but a lot more difficult to pull off. And what if raking takes just 5-15 seconds? Because that's how fast it often is.
And in either case you still need to deal with the immobilizer, and turn the core of the ignition lock. Unless your radio device is that comprehensive :)
Presuming its a modern car (and if we are talking about keyless entry/start we are), well then you just plug an "Emergency Start Device" into the OBD port or to the BCM module, and drive away. Heck a lot of these "Emergency Start Devices" can also unlock the car, but often involve pulling panels/lights from the car to get to the can bus to run the attack.
So that attack when done on its own is mainly left to stealing cars off drives at night rather than say from a supermarkets car park during the day.
Push-to-start eliminates the need to turn a physical lock. They drop to zero security once their RF is broken.
Funfact: in the past Ford and Volkswagen had only a number of different variations for the coding of the physical keys. So that you could open and start several cars with the very same physical key.
I assume that this was also true for other brands.
Many fleet vehicles are still this way. The 1284x key, for example, can open a surprising number of things including many older police vehicles.
A few hundred dollars more on Amazon will net you a magic keyring that can open a surprising number of vehicles, buildings, control systems, and vending machines.
If you're into that sort of thing check out Deviant Ollam's physical pentesting videos on Youtube.
That's a good start. To do better you'll need to do some reading or watch a ton of youtube videos to identify the keys that will get you the most bang for the buck.
I think mine has something like 20 keys on it now, and it will open a truly surprising number of things that it shouldn't.
This happened to me! Friend had a similar car and at night they went to mine and the door unlocked but the car wouldn't start. The door only had a few pins it checked while the ignition used every pin. We compared our keys and sure enough one part of it was the same.
OBS Ford F-150s do this and it's not common knowledge even among enthusiasts. The back 4 pins work the door, the front 6 or so pins work the ignition. A common problem is that the ignition barrel keyswitch dies and you have to replace it, but then you have separate keys for the door and ignition. I took the new ignition key to a locksmith and had him copy the 4 back pins from the factory key, and I was back to a single key!
My mom amd my friends mom both drove toyotas, completely different models and many years apart. By coincidence the key for my friends moms car worked for my moms, for unlock and start, but, my moms could only unlock the other one.
The current gold standard for vehicle theft protection is:
IGLA system to block the CAN bus, LIN bus, and ODBII port. It also protects against key fob cloning/relay attacks.
+
A hidden physical kill switch that cuts off the fuel pump relay (the company 41.22 makes a drop in that doesn't require wire splicing).
+
A hidden GPS tracker with an onboard backup battery in the event the car battery is disconnected.
None of this stops someone with a flatbed from simply towing your vehicle away, but at least the GPS tracker will give you a window to locate them.
If I have a towing tool for your car, be sure I have a Faraday cage too to block all your GPS trackers while I dismantle the car. Think big truck that is isolated from both sound and electromagnetism and I simply hack at your car with my wrenches, selling your expensive Tesla for parts.
That's an issue once the tow truck gets where it's going, but the GPS tracker will record/broadcast the path there.
GPS jammers are less than $30 on Alibaba, truck drivers have been using them for over 10 years [1] to defeat their bosses tracking devices.
Multi-Band Jammers are $1000, burglary rings are using those to block all Wi-Fi, cell, GPS signals - check out this arrest report from last week in Pennsylvania [2]. If I was a high-end car thief, like in Gone in 60 Seconds, that's what I would use.
[1] https://www.theregister.com/2013/08/12/feds_arrest_rogue_tru...
[2] https://dauphin.crimewatchpa.com/lowerpaxtonpd/3730/cases/or...
I think you missed the point. The Faraday cage is built inside the truck's cargo, and I put the car inside the Faraday cage directly. I also dismantle the car while the truck is moving so when I reach the chop-shop the GPS and all the car's guts are ready for sale.
I have a physical key which I physically put in a hole in the steering column. This means I know exactly where it is when I come to parking the car, and you need to physically have it in contact to drive the car away.
I don't get the appeal of keyless ignition.
People with bulky keychains often just throw them in their bag or purse and it can be annoying to fish them out.
I personally put a very high value on having a minimal keychain and wallet since I rarely carry a bag with me. The goal is to someday live in a state with Apple Wallet drivers’ license support, in a house with NFC smart locks, driving a car with Apple Car Key, at which point I could finally completely jettison my keys and my MagSafe wallet. I don’t want to carry physical keys when I’m already constantly carrying a device with a Secure Enclave and biometrics.
A beautiful aspiration, until you lose or break your phone...
People lose wallets. People lose car keys.
My PaaK car has a backup passphrase to start it. I can be used in a pinch if my phone isn't working. I can't say the same if I lose my car key.
If I go on a long trip I'm likely to bring multiple car keys and multiple payment methods. This is still true if I'm doing PaaK.
Or if you don't tend to bring your phone with you to do a bunch of errands. If all my locks were tied to my phone, I'd have to fish it out of the drawer whenever I go anywhere. OP said he "constantly" carries his phone with him, so maybe not a problem for him. Am I the only person in the world who leaves the phone at home if I'm not planning to use it?
Unlike my car keys or wallet, my phone can be located anywhere in the world from another device.
Not sure why you're being downvoted, I'm exactly the same. House locks are already electronic/automated, haven't carried a physical house key in year. Cars use fobs, for newer vehicles there is no option for physical keys anyway. When I leave the house I take my phone, plus the solo fob for whatever vehicle I am driving. I have no desire to have a ring of multiple physical keys and fobs with me.
Because it's a wild rube goldberg solution to a minor inconvenience.
What is Rube Goldberg about storing passkeys on a phone? Would you not call a physical lock system based on notches cut into metal a Rube Goldberg machine?
The downvotes are likely due to me obviously being an Apple cultist ;)
I had a car that unlocked as soon as you walked near with the fob. I hated this feature, because you were never sure if the car (with your expensive laptop in the boot/trunk) was actually locked. I ended up giving the key to a family member and getting them to walk a distance away, so I could try the door handle and check it was actually locked.
My family have both a Chrysler and a Subaru that try to do this, but they can't always keep up. (Sometimes I walk too fast and pull on the handle before it unlocks the door.)
Trying to dig your keys out of your pockets when it's extremely cold and having mittens on is not fun. Double the fun if it's night time, because the sun sets at 4:30 on those kinds of days.
Also it not being possible to lock yourself out of your car is neat.
It's not a must have but it's really nice.
Source: Canada
> you need to physically have it in contact to drive the car away.
No you don't. Remember when Kia Boyz trended on TikTok, where cars with physical keys were so easy to steal that people were doing it just for clout, but ones with fancier keyless ignitions were safe?
I’m honestly very surprised that you don’t see the appeal. Are there other things people view as conveniences that you don’t see the appeal of? E.g., keyless entry or remote lock?
Do they really, though? I don't know anyone who raves about how much more convenient button start is, they either dislike/distrust it or don't really care either way.
I love the entry on my '14 Jeep.
Walk up, put your hand in the handle, and it unlocks. Get in, press the button, and it starts. This is a fabulous "happy path" that is seamless.
Nothing happens without an actual action, but the actions are natural and organic to the task. The sensor is inside the door handle, combined with the key fob, and it just opens when you slide your hand into. It's a, truly, marvelous experience.
My keys stay in my pocket. Since I open the door for my wife anyway, it just works. (She can open the door, I just have to be close.)
Similarly, when we open the rear lift gate, it just opens. This also unlocks the rest of the vehicle (in contrast to if I push the gate open button on the fob, only the rear gate is open, not the rest -- which I find odd).
When leaving, I press a lock button on the handle to lock the car.
It's a great compromise, and works really well.
I absolutely rave about it. Every time I get a rental car that needs a cut key in an ignition cylinder it's a massive pain. I wouldn't buy a car that doesn't have push button ignition and would prefer for all cars I buy going forward to have phone as a key as an option.
For my personal cars I either use phone as a key or I'll keep the key fob in my bag. So I just walk up to the car, the car either auto unlocks or I press the button on the door, I get in, I press the button, and I go. When I'm done I just grab my bag and walk away and the car will auto-lock or I just press the door button. So smooth, I never need to really handle the key at all. It just stays in its specific pocket in my bag or it's just my phone in my pocket.
With a cut key, I walk up to the car. I need to fish around in my bag to grab the key. I then need to stick the key in the door and turn it, using care to not scratch the paint. I get in the car, need to insert the key, turn it and hold it long enough for it to start. When I'm done driving, I take the key out, grab my bag, and get out of the car. I then need to once again insert my key into the door once again being careful to not scratch anything, turn it to lock. Then I need to put the key away again.
And then phone as a key is incredibly nice, definitely my preferred way. I can easily leave the house for most errands with nothing but my phone on me. It's my car key, my payment method, my transit pass, my paperback novel, my portable music player, my camera, my maps, my communicator, all in one tiny package. Incredibly freeing compared to having to carry a bunch of junk in my pockets just to get groceries or whatever.
I like it quite a bit. It wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me, but I would prefer having it than not.
Did a high school project on the jam and replay attack mentioned here: https://github.com/trishmapow/rf-jam-replay. Low cost SDRs have been a real game changer in letting the average Joe get started in this space. Good to see that more unis have courses with this type of hands on experimentation.
So many Range Rovers are being stolen in the UK that the manufacturer has started contributing towards insurance costs: https://www.whatcar.com/news/range-rover-insurance-owners-to...
Code-hopping remotes have existed for a very long time, and I am really surprised that it's not the case here. I have had cars that were made in the 90's that used keeloq, a technology from the mid 80's.
In fact, all of my door openers and car remotes have some form of code-hopping and it's certainly not because they were specifically chosen for that aspect.
Sure, there are attacks for code-hopping systems as well, but it's a completely different league.
By code hopping do you mean rolling code based remotes?
I think what can sometimes be done with these is that one can record one or two codes and then desync the original remote. But I agree, it's a different league.
I'm confused why this is still an unsolved problem. A simple cryptographic challenge with pre-shared keys + button press ought to make key fobs perfectly secure for all practical purposes. Is there something I'm missing here?
It requires two-way communication, which makes the system more complex, with all the negatives that come with it.
Cars are not very secure by nature: they have easy to break glass windows, and are made of relatively lightweight materials. The key system just needs to match that level of security, and AFAIK, attacks on the keyfob are uncommon compared to other, less subtle techniques.
The more complex and sensitive "PKES" system, according to the article already has a challenge-response system, but it doesn't help with relay attacks.
yeah, this is what the article is describing as to what it was like in the early 2000s (assuming no moronic key reuse)
the problem is they "improved" the usability
it was safe when you had to push a button, but now roles are flipped so the car is the initiator, and doing it constantly
the protocol is now subject to a whole entire extra class of attacks it was never designed to deal with
You have to be able to get new keys made without having an original to read. A database of vin, key would be too big of a target and would have to be shared with dealers anyway so they could program new ones. I'm not a security expert but it seems like it would really shorten battery life on the fob if you wanted to protect against replay attacks by adding a time sensitive value.
Key distribution is (as always) an important, but solvable problem. There are some tradeoffs involving centralization vs cost of replacement, but those apply generally, not just in this particular case.
As for replay attacks, that's where the button press comes in (like on a hardware security token) -- the key only responds to challenges within a second or so of a button press and the car sets a similar timeout for validity.
And how that will protect you from repeater attack? I just steal your car while you are in mall with this just as easy, encryption or not. I don't care about the signal, just that I capture it, send it to my other device near your car and kaboom!, your car unlocked.
The key fob would always return a response the exact same amount of time after receiving the challenge, so couldn't the car learn the distance by measuring the time of flight?
TOTP relies on synchronized clocks, which is far, far too complicated to work here.
Re price tag: you can buy a smartphone for 100$. Surely it is possible to mass produce cheap key fobs with send/receive capability and a tiny crypto module.
Re power: Key fobs already do some form of crypto and broadcast. Adding reception capabilities ought not to be that power hungry.
Broke a few of these for my old work -- HiTag2 and Megamos, some of the code&knowledge used for the attack is online&published, but neither can be used to actually break the ciphers as-is [1][2]. The issue used to be that the cipher employed needed to be low-power, fast, and reliable. With current technology, one could easily use AES, and no serious auto maker should be using HiTag2/Megamos. They were hand-rolled ciphers. The way AES is used (i.e. the protocol itself) could still be wrong, of course, e.g. allowing for replay attacks, etc.
[1] Doesn't have some features which you need to use to actually attack HiTag2: https://github.com/msoos/grainofsalt
[2] Used for various pre-processing that is useful (but not neccessary) to break Megamos, but _far_ from the actual attack: https://github.com/meelgroup/bosphorus/
This is both very relevant and a bit off topic, but for me, quite timely.
Today my Polestar app wasn't updating properly. Some things were, but the widget was stuck on manual refresh, and the odometer and location in the app were from the previous location I'd been, not including the trip home.
I stupidly deleted the cache and data for the app. Then tried to reconnect to the car.
This process requires putting all of the fobs (for me, two) in the car, and then getting to the right step in the car as well as the app.
But... here the car claims it cannot find both fobs. While in other parts of the car software, it indicates it can find both fobs. Because of this, I cannot pair the phone and car, and have any of the app features working again.
I would, naturally, factory reset, but this also requires both fobs, and also claims it cannot find them. (I've tested each fob and they both fully work otherwise - just in these two instances, the car acts as if it cannot find them.)
I did. I tried a lot of things.
Ultimately the next day (this morning) I unplugged the charger, and hopped in the car and pressed Factory Reset, and it worked like a charm, and everything is fine now.
I don't know if charging was blocking pairing but I assume it was blocking the factory reset. (Just wish error messages were... more informative, you know?!)
I assume somehow data was... not in an ideal state... in the car's internal database, and the factory reset removed the bad data, allowing normal operation to assume.
This is an old article and whilst there are undoubtedly still vulnerable vehicles, with the advent of UWB it seems to be a solved problem.
My car has UWB, there's a LED on the fob that blinks when it is in range and if it's stationary for a short time, it inactivates as well. Some experimentation suggests you need to be within about 5m of the car to open the doors.
The localisation seems to be very accurate, even if you can open the car from a distance it won't start unless the fob is physically within it. If I sit in the driver seat the fob has to be less than 10mm away from the outside of driver's window, otherwise it refuses to start.
I HATE to say it, but 'enter your password to unlock your car' is the only reasonable alternative when 'something you have' is pseudo-secure.
Why can't it be very simple and secure. Car and fob share a secret key.
When you click on the open button on the fob, you send
SHA256(key)
Car responds with a random challenge
RND
Fob sends
SHA256(key XOR RND)
Car does the same calculation and compares.
I don't see it. Give an example of how this attack can be executed, a practical application.
I approach my car, I press the button on the fob to open it, and your attack does what exactly?
This was a great class when I took it! Hope you’re doing well Dr. Pauly!
There's an UK-based company providing anti-theft tracking services for cars, motorcycles, heavy equipment etc. and they have a YouTube channel where they document some recovery operations. It's quite remarkable how fast a car goes from stolen to stripped. They also can't rely on just GPS to actually recover stolen goods. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdGoxDPMv9Y
For a good modern day automobile security system, at least in the US, get a car with a manual transmission.
How do people learn to drive manuals in 2025? It used to be that you used your buddy's/parent's beater in the back of the mall parking lot.
But no one has one anymore. I tried to learn in the 90s for about an hour, and never managed to get the car moving forward rather than bouncing. At this point, I don't have much desire to try again, but I wouldn't know how to try if I wanted to.
A patina of filth, slightly faded paint and maybe a few dings and dents also help make a car invisible.
One thing I would’ve liked about an Apple car is the security. Imagine FaceID, secure enclaves and MFA. An iPhone on wheels would be immune to most, if not all, of these attacks.
Which makes you dependent on a third party, that doesn't necessarily have the motive to keep it updated. Having a mobile as a secondary key is a better idea, my Polestar 2 has keys, but also an app that can use Face ID (or the equivalent Android security measure) to drive the car. Once the app is set up you don't need to carry the physical keys.
And then how do I loan it to a friend without the rigamarole of adding them as an authenticated user?
What if I'm not able to add them as an authenticated user or authentic myself to let them drive, e.g. I'm injured or very drunk?
I imagine the same way you share a key for a HomeKit-enabled smart lock.
The only scenarios where one is so injured and/or drunk as to not be able to complete the non-rigamarolish process of sharing a HomeKit home key either by doing it themselves or walking someone through the process are ones where the key holder is so incapacitated that they would be unable to share a physical key.
All of that is someone irrelevant because Express Mode is enabled by default, so if you are unconscious all a person has to do is pull your phone out of your pocket and use it to unlock and start your car the exact same way physical keys work in that situation. It even works if the phone's battery is dead.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/118271
Also, every implementation of CarKit Car Keys I have seen is the same as HomeKit home keys: there is a backup. Either a physical key, PIN, fob, or card.
> non-rigamarolish process of sharing a HomeKit home key
I have not used homekit, but from some searches it only seems to be a non-rigamarole process to add someone as a homekit user if the other person has an apple device? Also, is the Internet required to enroll someone?
> ones where the key holder is so incapacitated that they would be unable to share a physical key.
I don't need to be conscious or my phone have battery (or reception) to have someone take a key from my pocket.
> Also, every implementation of CarKit Car Keys I have seen is the same as HomeKit home keys: there is a backup. Either a physical key, PIN, fob, or card.
I was responding to gp who wanted none of this as it all defeats the security they desired. A 1-factor physical authentication token as a backup would be suitable for nearly all edge cases I can think of. As long as the person carries it, but then we are at worst where we are today, at best I could potentially authenticate or add someone from afar.
I'm not saying that smart locks aren't useful, just that they can't only be "smart", which I assume you would agree with since you brought up things currently having backup methods?
> And then how do I loan it to a friend without the rigamarole of adding them as an authenticated user?
By making adding an authenticated driver not a rigamarole, but easy and intuitive.
> What if I'm not able to add them as an authenticated user or authentic myself to let them drive, e.g. I'm injured or very drunk?
They call you an ambulance.
> By making adding an authenticated driver not a rigamarole, but easy and intuitive.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't believe that this will be possible in many situations. What if I'm not near my car? What if my phone is dead? What if my car's battery is dead and it needs jumped?
I'm also just cynical that the automakers or app developers are able to not enshittify the process.
What if when I set my wife up I added her as a user but not admin and now she can't share with someone without having to involve me, which may not be physically possible in all circumstances.
> They call you an ambulance.
You don't call an ambulance to take a drunk person home. Calling a taxi when there is someone able to drive is a waste of money and a huge inconvenience the next day to retrieve the car.
You also can't call an ambulance in the wilderness.
I also meant injured in a more broad sense. What if I just have a bad headache or migraine? I don't want to be fumbling with my phone or car electronics trying to navigate adding someone.
In the future?
They call 911, and they read the license plate number and the authorities send an override signal that turns on the car and only allows it to be driven to the nearest hospital that appears on the screen on the console. If they go off course, they have 30 seconds to get back on course before it coasts into a 5mph limp mode (to find a safe place to pull over) for 1 minute before it completely stops and shutsdown and locks them inside for the police to come get them.
Eh, the car will probably be self-driving at that point, so probably only the first half.
BMW has a page describing the use of UWB (Ultra Wide Bandwidth) radio in key fobs and how it helps against relay attacks. In short it's because the wide bandwidth allows for very short pulses which lets them measure the distance between the car and the key, and using a relay will inevitably add distance and therefore time between the signal is sent and the reply is received.
https://www.bmw.com/en/innovation/bmw-digital-key-plus-ultra...