TikTok preparing for U.S. shut-off on Sunday
(reuters.com)681 points by xnhbx 4 days ago
681 points by xnhbx 4 days ago
Don't underestimate the human ability to "settle for less" if said less requires less effort from them. There's a reason people pay for Netflix despite pirating proposing a higher level of quality ; Netflix is just easier. They will settle for the "easy" solution, which will be any one of the TikTok clones already existing (YT shorts, reels, whatever).
> There's a reason people pay for Netflix despite pirating proposing a higher level of quality; Netflix is just easier
I'm slightly annoyed how this comment completely ignores the moral and ethical reasons someone might want to avoid making an illegal copy of something while denying it's creators any compensation. I need more coffee.
Netflix is not easier, but marketed heavily and competition is censored in search results. Some random pirating streaming site is unknown and probably not even easily discoverable on google (you have to use yandex for that).
I stick to pirating with adblockers because it is more convenient, there is a much bigger library of content and I don't have to share any personal info or pay for anything.
If you know the words “yandex” and “adblocker” you are already 90th percentile ability to pirate content
Netflix is absolutely easier to use than any form of pirating for the vast majority of their userbase.
Everyone in this thread talking about how people will “just get a VPN” to use TikTok have zero concept of the technical abilities of TikTok’s user base
Convenience wins every time. Digital photos are lower quality but easy. MP3 is worse than CD quality but easy. Etc.
Popular creators will leave, if they can't monetize their content anymore. Then, everyone else will follow the creators to whatever platform they will end up on.
The only reason social media is popular is Americans are too lazy to find stuff on the open web. They'd prefer the lazier option of the single web site deciding for them what to see and think about.
There's zero chance most will put in effort to access TikTok.
This ban does nothing about the mobile tick tok website. You don’t need to be a techie to use the browser on your cellphone. Yet it is a point of friction compared to an app with native notifications. And given the expectations of the average american tech user who has been coddled for the last decade into safe app store apps instead of the scary web, people are legitimately concerned.
This part is unclear to me. I know the article says "app," but this is general news reporting, and the term "web app" for stuff in the browser is acceptable terminology anyway. It also says that opening the app will redirect people to a page with information about the ban, not to the main page of the website. Prior to this discussion, I thought a ban at the ISP or CDN level was part of the plan, so a VPN would be required to circumvent it. No?
In any case, yeah, I'm not sure that "the average american tech user who has been coddled for the last decade" knows what a web browser is. I've observed some user behavior among family members that indicates a pretty bizarre mental model of how the Internet, web, and mobile applications work.
how would this actually work? iOS is so dominant among US teens it's crazy, and the ability to sideload on that platform is nonexistent even to very technically savvy users.
If the holding power of TikTok is strong enough (which it just might be) then you might actually see teens start to switch to Android.
I got popcorn ready to see how the masses of iOS users will react to the TikTok ban
That is not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that if I have a tiktok channel, and the only way for people to see it is through a hack, then obviously my channel won't do that well.
The bored teenager will learn ways to get tiktok. But the bored tiktokker won't learn ways to get the audience on tiktok
All they're really banning is the app on the App or Play store basically. Anyone who still has tiktok on their phone can continue on and even make a new account. Anyone who cares enough can probably get a cracked APK too
TikTok will probably die slowly not suddenly
The duopoly of app store and play store makes this kind of ban much more effective. India banned TikTok and nobody uses it over here now. It's simply too hard to download the app. Google won't let me download it even when I'm traveling abroad.
Banning websites has been very hard, but today's closed marketplace ecosystems make banning apps much easier and people are not motivated to find loopholes.
When Ukraine banned russian social networks in 2015, all the teens had free FSB-sponsored VPNs running on their phones in no time. Like, almost 100% of them. In mere days. Now leaking not just the social network data to russia, but rather the entirety of their traffic.
Let's see if US teenagers are as savvy and motivated.
> Anyone remember when they were in school and adults tried to ban access to a popular website?
Uhhh there are many websites that are banned in the USA. Otherwise working URLs that wont work in the USA. Mostly hostile state actor stuff.Iran, NK, etc. The fact that you don't know about it just says how effective it is.
Sure, VPN. But (serious question, not rhetorical) is that going to get the app on your phone? And are you going to go to the trouble when the algorithm thinks you're eastern european? When the user base is smalelr?
AFAIK most teenagers use iPhones in US. What are they going to do? I'm Apple fanboy but this is the exact type of power they shouldn't have.
Maybe you agree with the ban, I'm curious how would many people be feeling around year of 2028 after a few years of oligarchs consolidating their power and designing an obedient society through full control of the communications. Maybe you have ideas against H1B or maybe you use birth control, whatever your current opinions oh these are there's non-zero chance that you will be enforced into the correct opinions.
US citizens do not want this.
Every news article descending into tangents on any other point than that is part of why we can't have nice things.
The whole country has turned into some sort of lower primate improv troupe where whatever stupid thing comes up gets a "Yes and let's" diversion instead of an adult in the room standing up and cutting the crap.
We certainly _do_ want this. I think the fact that we let a foreign company own a social media platform in the first place is preposterous. As others have said, we would never let the CCP own a TV broadcast, why should we let china own a major social media platform? That's just absurd.
If we don't want this then we simply won't make an account on those platforms...
YOU want this ban and you don't like that OTHER PEOPLE like TikTok. Clearly you don't have a TikTok account and that's not enough. You want to make sure no one else is allowed to have a TikTok account either
Instead of spreading the message about possible harms you'd rather ban other people's abilities
> foreign ownership alone isn't a sound reason for a ban
You're right -- but foreign ownership by a repressive regime with undemocratic ideals certainly is. For example, I don't think anyone would be too concerned if a European country was the one that founded & owned TikTok.
> US citizens do not want this
Ha ha, I guess you are discovering, many many people do want this.
No one who actually uses it or understands it wants this. This is like vegans banning steak.
It's like the non-addicts banning heroin. You don't have to be a Tik Tok user to understand that it's bad for it to be PRC-controlled!
You're getting it. It is like vegans banning steak!
> "lower primate improv troupe"
> "No one who actually uses it or understands it wants this."
"Everyone's generalizations are stupid, except mine."
The users for sure don't want this. Among non-users, I'd say there's a sizable difference (let's say 50/50)...
Many things aren't that democratic when you look at it like that!
US citizens elected representatives to make laws for them. Even more so, this is a bipartisan law.
Tiktok US users of voting age are already accounted for in that process, they don't get extra sway just because they use the app.
Pew has it at 32–28 in support of the ban[0]. I think that's pretty low for a bipartisan effort where the opposition hasn't really had a chance to air it's case.
[0] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/09/05/support-f...
> it's about banning dissent
On the contrary, I think it is about banning a propaganda and social engineering vector that is under the thumb of an adversarial foreign government. That, for me, is enough of a reason to ban it and justify it under our constitution.
The fact that I am in favor of banning all social media should tell you that it is not ideological, but rather that I think social media is extremely addictive, and has huge negative externalities.
What criteria define social media that's ban-worthy for you? Does it require the combination of user-generated content and a personalized algorithmic feed which characterizes modern corporate social media, or do you extend it to a broader range of ways people can interact over the internet?
Those in leadership being against a meaningful percentage (about 30%) of those under their care is common.
I think part of the problem is everyone thinks they are the "adult in the room" and everyone else is the "primates". I agree policy discussions are a bit of a farce though (in a sorta funny twist places like TikTok are responsible for that since the engagement metrics have a tendency to promote nonsense and lies)
How many of those people voted? The young people who don't vote don't want this and the old people who do vote do want this. The outcome is predictable.
My opinion on this has not changed since Trump tried to ban TikTok in his first term [0]: if the USA wants to ban TikTok for XYZ reason, they need to pass a general purpose law in Congress that applies equally to all foreign-owned companies.
Singling out TikTok without a universal principle or law leaves a nasty taste in my mouth, and the US gov. will just be playing whack-a-mole with whatever the TikTok successor is.
[0]: https://www.npr.org/2020/12/07/944039053/u-s-judge-halts-tru...
Shockingly, given how often congress shirks its duty these days, they did write such a law:
https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hr7520/BILLS-118hr7520eh....
Banning individual apps in this manner is wrong, IMO. In a country where concepts like freedom of speech and restrictions on government censorship are not insignificant considerations (in theory, at a minimum) a decision like this is unfortunate. China bans apps... tons of apps... in order to maintain strict control over the content and identity of users. This strategy is not something the US should be mimicking.
The claim that it's a "national security" risk and the ban is needed to mitigate that is silly. If it is really that then ban it from government facilities and devices. The actual risk from TikTok is no greater than the risk from Facebook, Instagram or any of a myriad of apps.
The correct thing to do would be to strengthen laws that address the core concerns so that we are protected from ANY app that represents a threat to privacy or security. Just banning a single app (and then another, and another...) is ridiculous and goes against a number of things this country is supposed to stand for.
So what if a conflict breaks out and the CCP essentially use TikTok as a pathway directly into the brains of millions of Americans. Let's say they tweak the algorithm with a button press to create confusion and public discord when we should be united to protect taiwan.
That's a possible tool of disinformation.
hm, create a law which gives government emergency powers to delete apps / ban ip networks in case of a war
---
now that I think about it more banning foreign websites is the perfect way to brain wash
1. ban all foreign websites, because clearly it's a foreign influence on your people. "What if the war breaks" and so on
2. now you only have your local websites. Their owners are here and can be forced to mangle / edit content and bend it to your will. Where the foreign actor can ignore your requests local one can not
We already have it in Russia. People use the ugly and banned Facebook because they know that at least it's less censored in regards to Russian topics than locally owned VK or dzen. And Facebook is less likely to provide your messages to the russian police
Counterbalance to misinformation is, just, information. Strengthen the institutions that provide valuable and quality information and use them as counter. Why aren't PBS and such institutions funded to produce shorts that inform users and put those on Tiktok et all?
This is so fucking sad. As a russian american who lived through russian transition from relatively free country to an authoritarian one I'm getting dejavu vibes here(Putin started with taking over of all independent news sources like newspapers/tv and radio channels etc). This is not up to the government or some other people to decide what I read, what I watch where I get my information/news from. America has a beautiful concept of free speech, stick to it. I personally think that TikTok is a brain rot, but I still don't want any government involvement into this. Don't like it? - Don't use it.
I broadly agree with this, but there was a path for the Tiktok app to not be banned, which is basically the China playbook of handing over control to a domestically controlled entity. Which in the case of a social media company with the reach of Tiktok i don't think is unreasonable.
Strengthened laws would be welcome, but all the social media companies would resist this as hard as they can. I don't see any real regulation happening until there is a crisis of some sort that will push it through against all the lobbyists and bought politicians.
Lots of American social media are banned here by the Russian government (all for the same reason of protecting citizens from foreign avdersaries), and we just use VPN. We're used to it, and if a service is popular (like Instagram), it's practically impossible to ban it. Monetization provided by the service is replaced by embedding sponsors' videos directly in the video (and getting money directly from the sponsor without third parties), or by selling merchendize to fans.
I wonder how many Americans will just use VPN? Is it common to use VPN in the US? Here, almost everyone uses it now. A few weeks ago they suddenly banned Viber for some reason and I barely noticed it.
As someone in Australia which I assume is fairly similar, we really don't use VPN's, at the very least the average person doesn't and their use isn't common knowledge. However I have friends in China like you, where VPN's are used by the majority.
We are used to having access to pretty much everything we want access to.
The most popular apps and services used around the world are largely readily available in the US and do not need VPN's to use.
A Tiktok ban is in my memory probably the first time that a major platform used by the masses has been banned for use in the US. Because of the lack of VPN usage by every day people, I'd say everyone will flock to Instagram rather than continuing to try accessing Tiktok. If nobody else you know is using Tiktok, then why use it would be the question.
If X ne Twitter knew what they were doing, now would have been the obvious moment to relaunch Vine.
I've been wondering for the past couple of years, why did Vine fail but TikTok succeed? Based on my increasingly fuzzy memories of Vine and my rough understanding of TikTok as a non-user, they appear to be pretty much the same app.
TikTok’s algorithm for the feed and their data science and recommenders are pretty amazing. You can tune it to show you what you like really quickly and it’s effective. Mine is tuned to old house preservation and restoration, a couple guys doing skits as blue collar workers that are some of the funniest parts of my day, motocross videos, and some dog/animal content. I’ve never liked a video or commented on a video, it’s just so effective using dwell time and they have so much data that they can give you exactly what you want and little that you don’t. There is no politics on my feed. I challenge you to get that with twitter, reels, threads, Facebook, vine… any of them
Lack of variety in videos. 6s videos limited the amount of content that could be included to the point where all videos were essentially short comedy skits. TikTok keeps you engaged by showing you a variety of different genres of video. This includes comedy, but also educational videos, sports highlights, video game clips, etc.
Add to this TikTok's algorithm for deciding what content to show you based on how engaged you were in the previous videos and you end up with a "For you" feed that drastically varies from person-to-person. This keeps it fresh and enjoyable at all times.
Youtube tries to do a similar thing by presenting you videos that are similar to your interests, but in my experience it usually trends towards what is likely "more profitable". Meaning longer videos from well-established creators to juice as much ad revenue as possible from the user.
TikTok feels night-and-day in comparison. On TikTok, I can watch a 3 minute educational video on how elevators work, and then scroll once and see 3 second video of a grown man pretending to be a duck
I think we remember Vine through rose colored glasses. There was nothing on vine that was addicting, other than some very famous videos, that are still treated as relics. And everyone knew about those videos, because of how the feed was organized. TikTok is way more tailored-to-the-user.
> There was nothing on vine that was addicting
Well that sounds like a selling point to me.
IIRC people didn’t spend multiple hours a day on Vine. That was one of the reasons why it shut down — they couldn’t grab attention span of the aging users like Instagram and Snapchat did at that period (2012-2016). They also couldn’t get the fomo feeling that younger people nowadays get without TikTok et al.
I doubt they have the engineering experience to launch anything at this point. They try to do a weird tiktok like thing where watching a video on mobile will randomly scroll to another video, but I think this probably has more to do with juicing "unregretted user seconds" than anything.
Still can't fix the fact that videos randomly pause every 2 seconds though
literally weekly updates on what they launch/release: https://x.com/x
I’m puzzled too. By the rationale I read here, Europe should ban all non-European social networks (which would be great since we don’t really have any). Whilst TikTok based propaganda is clearly being used to wage war on European elections, US propaganda targeting Europeans is equally being peddled by US tech giants as well. Social media is truly the worst widely accepted invention of the internet.
I am not saying that it's good or bad, and the geopolitical situation has changed a lot, but I miss the relative innocence, openness, and sense of unity that characterised the 2000-2010s internet.
We are slowly going in the direction of European internet, American internet, Chinese internet, Russian internet...
The 1990s-2010s Internet was a golden age in the sense that even though the Internet was a child of the US military-industrial-research complex, political powers didn't yet perceive it as a potential threat vector or even comprehend it at all ("the internet is a series of tunes"). Many of its users also came from academic or technical backgrounds, which helped to maintain shared cultural values (although this was constantly eroding over time - see "Eternal September").
Social media and "Web 2.0" were probably the death knell for this era - while they were wonderful for democratization of the Internet's benefits, the merger of Internet culture and non-Internet culture meant that all the ills of the latter were inflicted on the former.
> The 1990s-2010s Internet was a golden age
It was the golden age because from the 1990 to 2010, the internet was majority american. For the entire 90s, the internet population was something ridiculous like 95% american. Fun times.
> in the sense that even though the Internet was a child of the US military-industrial-research complex, political powers didn't yet perceive it as a potential threat vector or even comprehend it at all ("the internet is a series of tunes").
Comprehend it at all? Are you joking. Maybe the dumb politicians didn't know it but certainly the real people in charge certainly knew it's potential.
> Social media and "Web 2.0" were probably the death knell for this era
The death nell of the era was the smartphone which allowed millions of computer illiterate peoples around the world to join the internet. The demographics of the internet was definitely changing in the 2000s, but the arrival of the smartphone toward the end of the decade accelerated the demographic shift. Now americans make up a small portion of the internet population.
> European internet, American internet, Chinese internet, Russian internet...
Not sure about the European one. Unlike Russia or China, we don't seem capable to produce our own services, or to not use the US ones. Maybe it'll change with the increased hostility of US government and tech CEOs?
> seem capable to produce our own services, or to not use the US ones.
Like the China/US situation, as soon as there's friction against using the US ones people will switch to local competitors. There was a UK competitor to Facebook around the time of its launch called "Friends Reunited". Technologically these things are not as hard as recruiting users, overcoming the natural monopoly effects, and handling moderation.
A confrontation has long been brewing over the Microsoft Ireland "safe harbor" case.
> We are slowly going in the direction of European internet, American internet, Chinese internet, Russian internet...
That has always existed, you just may not be aware of it if you are from an English speaking country, because those other parts are not easily accessible without knowledge of the respective languages.
Not only,
European computer, American computer, Chinese computer, Russian computer...
European OS, American OS, Chinese OS, Russian OS...
European programming language, American programming language, Chinese programming language, Russian programming language...
Just like in the good old days of computing during cold war.
I 100% agree, I think social media has been a complete mistake, facebook's creation is my version of eternal november since I joined the web in 1999
The big reason I think it changed is that the internet went from being a place for nerds and geeks, when there was a technical barrier to getting online, to a place where there is essentially no barrier. As a result the web now reflects the innocence, openness, and intellectual curiosity of the average person, since the internet has become a daily part of everyone's life not just a subsection of the world that appeals to us.
I miss that too. I was in China before 2005 and the Internet was pretty much free. I used to speak to the quake editing group on IRC about mapping until deep into the night.
I think it's going to get more segmented. And not only that, the hardware, the OS, everything.
That said, I believe HN is a good platform. I don't think it's banned in China and people here can keep politics out of technical discussions, at least for now.
Bound to happen when the internet becomes weaponized, unfortunately. It's kind of crazy to begin with that we put all of our public infrastructure on a network Russia and China have wired access to from their home countries and it's lasted this long when you think about it.
That shrinks by the minute, thanks to AI-assisted translators.
I had a long-distance relationship with someone when I was in my very early 20s who does not speak English nor my first language. I do not think language barrier is a difficult obstacle to overcome today if it was not much of an issue 10 years ago.
One thing that would make social media much better, is forcing providers by law to ensure everybody sees the same content.
Example: I can be on Reddit in subreddit A. You can be on Reddit in subreddit B.
We would obviously still see different content.
But ALL members of subreddit A MUST see the exact same topics in the exact same order with the exact same comments and likes/dislikes.
This would help build up a more shared “worldview” like mediums such as radio and TV did; you chose the channel, but everybody on the same channel gets the same information.
This would then allow the service provider and potentially government agencies, as well as users themselves, to moderate harmful content or false information more reliably.
Originally (and I don't know if this is still the case) the case for randomizing the content view on Reddit a bit (fuzzy numbering) was as a layer which helped prevent vote manipulation and brigading/bandwagoning. There may be similar reason for other platforms where not being exactly the same is unrelated to tuning the types of information presented to people. I.e. I don't know how much it matters that "all member absolutely must see the same exact order" as much as "the ordering defaults are not gamed for individual engagement"
Even then, I'd settle for "must have the option to use chronological/absolute vote based/similar type by default" type option. I'm not as convinced I know what others need to do to save themselves as much as I'm I think it'd be nice if it to be easy for us to be able to choose how we engage with content feeds (regardless what the platform is).
And then there is a matter of content groups when it comes to exposure rather than the addictive nature. Does it really make a difference if people end up seeing only /r/MyEchoChamberA and /r/MyEchoChamberB anyways. After all, each is perfectly representing the same echo chamber to all of the users who bother to browse there.
>This would help build up a more shared “worldview” like mediums such as radio and TV did; you chose the channel, but everybody on the same channel gets the same information.
That would be a nightmare, going back to the bad old days when people's worldviews were entirely decided by whatever flavour of government propaganda their preferred TV station happened to favour.
Oh yea, thank god we left that world behind completely. It would be terrible like, some major news network was completely in the tank for one of our political parties, and a huge percentage of the population kept it on basically 24/7. That would completely poison our discourse. Good thing the internet fixed that one.
>huge percentage of the population
I happen to have just looked into this, and it turns out this percentage peaks at 1 (for Sean Hannity, apparently?), but typically is around 0.5%. Less huge than you may be imagining
> One thing that would make social media much better, is forcing providers by law to ensure everybody sees the same content.
This sounds terrible. I don't want to see the same content as everyone else. A good chunk of Youtube right now is rightwing content that I don't have to see.
I'm going to blow your mind, but at one point you weren't subscribed to the channel. You found that channel likely through the algo.
> ensure everybody sees the same content.
Terrible idea.
On what order would you show things? Upvotes/downvotes? Could work but "social" media implies we all have different social circles, so my social circle of friends is very different from yours. I can probably see posts from my friends which you won't (since you're not friends with them) Maybe I follow certain pages that you don't. How do we still have the same feed then?
> The outcome of the shutdown would be different from that mandated by the law. The law would mandate a ban only on new TikTok downloads on Apple or Google app stores, while existing users could continue using it for some time.
Does anyone have thoughts on why TikTok would choose to stop for existing users? I.e. why would they choose to do more than the minimum required by the law? It's nice that they want to point people to a way to download their data, but they could also keep showing videos after notifying people of that option. What's the rationale here?
> Does anyone have thoughts on why TikTok would choose to stop for existing users?
What business would choose to keep operating if it can't gain new customers? Think about it. The law makes it impossible for tiktok to grow or be profitable. What advertiser would be interested in a platform that will lose users every day and won't gain more in the future?
The law was sneakily and intentially written to outright ban tiktok. It would be like congress creating a law saying you specifically cannot buy more gas. You can keep using the gas in the car, but you can't fill up your tank anymore. Would you spend thousands to fix your car? Change the oil or the tire? No. You'd either sell the damn thing or just throw it away.
The obvious play would be to incite those active users to take action by letting their congress critters know their opinions in an effort to have them reverse their vote
They did try that last year though it did generate a lot of calls in absolute terms and it didn't actually work as political pressure for them to vote against the ban.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/mar/07/tiktok-us...
Getting congress to reverse something seems much harder, in that they also have to get someone to introduce the bill, get it through a committee, get it scheduled for a vote, etc, in both houses.
> Getting congress to reverse something seems much harder,
The GOP is absolutely flip flopping on this issue since Trump has also reversed on the ban idea. That's why the TikTok lawyers' arguments to SCOTUS were to just delay the ban until after Jan 20 so the incoming administration could weigh in on the matter.
> in that they also have to get someone to introduce the bill, get it through a committee, get it scheduled for a vote, etc, in both houses.
I think you are forgetting that the GOP just took control of both houses. It will not be that difficult for them is that's what the orange man says he wants.
If there's an escape hatch, I think it's more likely that Trump directs the DOJ to defer enforcement, first temporarily. Some deal will be made where Trump stipulates some stuff about content moderation, including removing TikTok's ban on political ads. Once TikTok has agreed to act like X, Trump can direct the DOJ to delay enforcement indefinitely, but keeping the law on the books as a sword of damocles to keep leverage.
The Reuters article already states this will happen:
> If it is banned, TikTok plans that users attempting to open the app will see a pop-up message directing them to a website with information about the ban, the people said, requesting anonymity as the matter is not public.
those plays can easily backfire - like when tiktok first did it
although there are success cases, like prop 22 in california and uber
The threat of losing something vs actually losing something is not the same though. If TikTok did something with all of the tracking data they did for each user so they could show the contact information for their Rep and Senators to make it easy for everyone with clickable links directly to phone numbers/emails would increase that engagement. It would also just show how creepy AF their tracking is. So maybe just a screen like PH does that refuses access to their content with a screen that says talk to your reps.
Political pressure. There are more Americans on TikTok than voted in the last election. I think the parent company is calculating that they can draw attention to the government taking away something the users love and turn that into political pressure to undo the law. We’ll see what happens, but I’d imagine they are right. Taking away the opiate of the masses has not worked out for governments in the past.
People in the US have the right to petition the Government, regardless of their eligibility to vote.
> Does anyone have thoughts on why TikTok would choose to stop for existing users?
For the same reason Google or Facebook or many other major players might choose to stop operating in a jurisdiction that's trying to impose restrictions on them that they feel are unconscionable, rather than knuckling under?
The "national security" angle that FedGov is attempting to hang this all on is pretty bullshit... defense contractors that do classified work for the DoD can be foreign owned!
I find it pretty telling that the two sides of this argument boil down to:
1. This is a platform owned within China which can easily be used to silently and effectively spread highly targeted propaganda to extremely vulnerable demographics. If it has already been used for this purpose we will never know.
2. They make the most engaging internet junk food and other competitors don’t do nearly as good a job.
Does that about cover it?
I'm tearing my hair out... how is the solution here not just better data privacy laws? Doesn't that solve all the issues, both domestic and international?
It's not about data privacy - it's about social control. I don't know why it's always lost on every commentary that the TikTok ban became a widely bipartisan issue after October 7th.
TikTok was the only large social media platform that did not overtly deplatform Palestinian users and sympathizers.
Because the point is to funnel people to US apps where the US Govt has control of the narrative
Data privacy is not the concern, or else they'd have done what you suggest
Because it's not necessarily about the / data privacy/, it's about the ability of a foreign adversary to influence the American populous in subtle ways over time.
By simply suppressing topics, or elevating trends they might find helpful in swaying the populous.
That's what propaganda is and it works.
> By simply suppressing topics, or elevating trends they might find helpful in swaying the populous.
Isn't that exactly what US media does as well? Every media has an owner with his own interests, the information they'll provide you will be carefully crafted to not harm those interests.
Best case: I am not propagandized by any state media || Second worst case: I am propagandized by my own country's media || Worst case: I am propagandized by a foreign adversary's media
Link a video. What is the alleged propaganda that is so threatening to national security Americans can't be allowed to see it?
In the article, this discussion, all the media I've read... I've yet to see a single example of this alleged propaganda and manipulation by the CPC. What propaganda? Manipulated into believing what?
> it's about the ability of a foreign adversary
Hang on, 'foreign adversary'? Who makes all of America's stuff? Who sent so much of the jobs and manufacturing over there?
> to influence the American populous [sic] in subtle ways over time.
Eg, pointing out Israel's atrocities and how they lead right back to us, or about advantages of socialism compared to oligarchy.
Most other countries allow foreign media to be aired quite freely. Any 'subtle influence' is in a sea of other influences, and quite diluted.
Diverse media with free exchange of ideas leads to a populace with a chance of being informed. Restricting media to the US megacorps is obviously a terrible idea, no?
> That's what propaganda is and it works.
The solution to propaganda is to educate people and teach them critical thinking. However, that would damage the yacht class far too much.
Yeah, at this age,they need to be fed only with US propaganda, just to be sure. Too bad that another country produced a better product to that demography.
> Privately held ByteDance is about 60% owned by institutional investors such as BlackRock and General Atlantic, while its founders and employees own 20% each. It has more than 7,000 employees in the United States
That’s probably a very stupid question, but is how this is a Chinese company when 60% are owned by American funds?
Presumably, the relevant factor here is not ownership on paper, but who has real control via being able to tell Bytedance employees (including the executives) what to do. Which, in this case, is assumed to be China’s government leaders.
Control can be separated from who is owed what share of economic profits. For example, some Alphabet and Meta shares having more voting power than others.
On a more pragmatic level, even in the US "own" means what society will defend for you. However, the US (and other western countries) are presumed to have courts that have a higher probability of defending claims of ownership assuming you have the right paperwork. Whereas in places like China, it is presumed that your paperwork is less likely to entitle you to a defense.
In the US government's view, as expressed in its brief in the Supreme Court:
"Because of the authoritarian structures and laws of the PRC regime, Chinese companies lack meaningful independence from the PRC’s agenda and objectives. As a result, even putatively ‘private’ companies based in China do not operate with independence from the government. Indeed, “the PRC maintains a powerful Chinese Communist Party committee ‘embedded in ByteDance’ through which it can ‘exert its will on the company.’ ... the committee includes “at least 138 employees,” including ByteDance’s “chief editor”
...
"Even assuming that the law would recognize Zhang as a bona fide domiciliary of Singapore and not the PRC, ByteDance would nevertheless qualify as being “controlled by a foreign adversary” under one or more of the other statutory criteria. For instance, ByteDance is “headquartered in” China, which is sufficient on its own.... ByteDance also is “subject to the direction or control of ” Chinese persons domiciled in China (in particular, Chinese Communist Party officials), which likewise is sufficient on its own."
http://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/24/24-656/336144/20241...
The saddest part of this to me was watching congressional representatives try to wrestle with the Singapore thing and fail in hearings. It really made me feel like they thought they had some kind of gotcha when in reality all they did was publicly demonstrate how little they actually grasp the real national security threat at play.
Side-loading APKs are still needed for new Android users, not too much difference right? Exactly like the workarounds you need to find when you want to install "Risky applications" on a Chinese Xiaomi phone.
As a Chinese hated CCP for the internet censorship and decided to be an expat, what's going on these days is changing my world view.
> No it wouldn't be ironic because all of that is allowed.
The irony is that China is usually the one considered "less free" by the US, and in this case Chinese citizen could help US citizen "regain their freedom".
> In fact, existing tiktok users are welcome to keep the existing app on their phone.
My understanding from the article is that ByteDance will redirect US users to a website and prevent them from using the app.
It's really rare for me to be pro-intervention when it comes to the government vs free-industry but TikTok has become undeniably, geopolitically hazardous for the US. The dismal bit of it is that nation state backed, habit-forming propaganda apps are only likely to proliferate.
I know of many instances in which Meta suppressed specific opinions, but I don't know any of TikTok doing the same thing. Examples are welcome, if you have any.
Or is this just about Tiktok not being owned by a billionaire who will use censorship to keep the USA government happy?
There are many different ways to read your comment. Both of which are actually pretty funny. Well done.
There's only one way if you're being intellectually honest.
I'm still waiting for examples of Chinese propaganda pushing for misinformation, by the way.
It seems not a single person on this post is capable of providing one, even though there are dozens of users scaremongering over Chinese propaganda.
I continue to be baffled by people who simultaneously believe that TikTok is dangerous because of Chinese propaganda that may happen in the future, but that all the other social media networks are not dangerous despite the mostly Russian misinformation and election interference that has been ongoing since 2016. So far as I can see the important part is not who owns the network, but just how easy it is for misinformation to be published, and basic info like "is this poster a real human?" or "was this person paid to say this?" or "is this a factually incorrect statement?" are not readily visible to users.
> but that all the other social media networks are not dangerous despite the mostly Russian misinformation and election interference that has been ongoing since 2016
You can affirm one thing without affirming similar arguments. This is important for me to say because you're consigning me to an argument that I didn't make.
Yeah good thing they banned facebook as well which provably has a huge fake news / propaganda problem while tiktok... while tiktok has.... um... while tiktok... quick, tell me what propaganda tiktok has been pushing that's so much worse than FB or twitter or IG! You can do it! Can't you?
Zuckerberg and Elon got what they wanted. Regulatory capture. Got the govt to ban a superior product. Elon even gets dips on acquiring it and expanding his megaphone.
I guess US is becoming more like China. Choosing their horses and warding off competition.
So much for free markets.
Welcome to Oligarchy America. From now on billionaires will get their hands on whatever they can, with a shining approval from the government and the FTC. DOGE will privatize what's left of public services so they can have that too.
And when that's done they'll consolidate into a few monopolies and we'll basically be back in the Gilded Age.
I created a quick tutorial on how to backup and download all of your TikToks.
You are linking the wrong script in the initial tweet. You meant to link to this one: https://gist.github.com/kukicado/e92b31601117060f6895ecefc98...
There’s nothing worse than listening to the audio of someone else scrolling TikTok
Hearing the same 10 second clip of a song 20 times
Are you sure you're actually thinking of people using youtube shorts or facebook?
I don’t understand why, with so much advanced warning that users would need a good replacement for TikTok, YouTube Shorts and Instagram Reels are still so bad. Why not invest in matching, at least, every TikTok UX feature? And beyond that, how are these two leading AI companies really unable to make a recommendation algorithm that actually shows people things they like?
No really. The Shorts and Reels algorithms are so one dimensional. They both interpreted me disliking smug milquetoast rants about Republicans and Democrats as not wanting politics in my feed at all. I do want the politics, but I don't need it hammered into my head that Republicans are dumb as bricks. I don't need to see the performative Tom Cotton and Jasmine Crockett clips that have already been shown 100 times.
TikTok's algo, OTOH, somehow understands that interests are multi-dimensional and that maybe I just want a different kind of politics or discussions that go deeper than cheap shots. I never in my life thought I'd encounter an anti-Marxist right-libertarian who actually read and is familiar with all three volumes of Capital, but TikTok figured out that I'd find it interesting.
I agree that it is unusual that YouTube and Instagram don't seem to be trying harder to court TikTok users. I assume this is because it would expose how much of an unpopular alternative they are.
The user base is probably more important to the quality of the feed than the interface or the algorithm.
We'd be better off without a clone, whether its owned by a Western company or not.
Anyone remember when they were in school and adults tried to ban access to a popular website? I imagine this ban will go down exactly the same. Never underestimate a bored teenager's ability to bypass tech restrictions. Heck maybe this is what is needed to finally get a new generation out of the comforts of their tech walled garden and get their hands dirty.