Comment by jll29

Comment by jll29 2 days ago

43 replies

I regret the situation led to the OP feel discourage about the NLP community, wo which I belong, and I just want to say "we're not all like that", even though it is a trend and we're close to peak hype (slightly past even?).

The complaint about pollution of the Web with artificial content is timely, and it's not even the first time due to spam farms intended to game PageRank, among other nonsense. This may just mean there is new value in hand-curated lists of high-quality Web sites (some people use the term "small Web").

Each generation of the Web needs techniques to overcome its particular generation of adversarial mechanisms, and the current Web stage is no exception.

When Eric Arthur Blair wrote 1984 (under his pen name "George Orwell"), he anticipated people consuming auto-generated content to keep the masses from away from critical thinking. This is now happening (he even anticipated auto-generated porn in the novel), but the technologies criticized can also be used for good, and that is what I try to do in my NLP research team. Good will prevail in the end.

solardev 2 days ago

Have "good" small webs EVER prevailed?

Every content system seems to get polluted by noise once it hits mainstream usage: IRC, Usenet, reddit, Facebook, geocities, Yahoo, webrings, etc. Once-small curated selections eventually grow big enough to become victims of their own successes and taken over by spam.

It's always an arms race of quality vs quantity, and eventually the curators can't keep up with the sheer volume anymore.

  • squigz 2 days ago

    > Have "good" small webs EVER prevailed?

    You ask on HN, one of the highest quality sites I've ever visited in any age of the Internet.

    IRC is still alive and well among pretty much the same audience as always. I'm not sure it's fair to compare that with the others.

    • solardev 2 days ago

      Well, niche forums are kinda different when they manage to stay small and niche. Not just HN but car forums, LED forums, etc.

      But if they ever include other topics, they risk becoming more mainstream and noisy. Even within adjacent fields (like the various Stacks) it gets pretty bad.

      Maybe the trick is to stay within a single small sphere then and not become a general purpose discussion site? And to have a low enough volume of submissions where good moderation is still possible? (Thank you dang and HN staff)

      • squigz 2 days ago

        I'm not entirely sure it's about content (while HN is certainly tech-focused, politics, health, philosophy all come up with regularity) or even content moderation, although they both certainly play a part (particularly the moderation around here. Thanks, staff!)

        I wonder if it is more to do with the community itself. HN users tend to have very intelligent discussions on pretty much anything, and discourages shitty, unnuanced, one-line takes. This, coupled with a healthy moderation system, makes it hard for the lower quality discussion to break in and override the good stuff.

      • nick3443 2 days ago

        The car headlight forums seem to expose the weakness of small web though, in that a lot of the forums that show up in search are "sponsored" by one or two major brands and any open discussion or validation of off-brand solutions, AliExpress parts, etc are quickly shunned or banned.

      • rovr138 2 days ago

        Yes. That's the small web.

        A good example of the generalization problem you discuss is reddit.

        You have to unsubscribe from all the defaults and find the small, niche, communities about specific topics. If not, it's the same stuff, reposted, over and over, across different subs and/or social sites.

    • bongodongobob 2 days ago

      It's high quality when the content is within HN's bubble. Anything related to health, politics, or Microsoft is full of misinformation, ignorance, and garbage like any other site. The Microsoft discussions in particular are extremely low quality.

      • tdb7893 a day ago

        When economics has come up I've been curious and asked my brother about some of the stuff in the more upvoted comments (he has his PhD in economics with a focus on labor specifically) his reaction has always been something like "that doesn't match my understanding of that" or "I think their analysis is a bit oversimplified".

        My experience here is that it's pretty good for things outside of tech (at least better than the average internet) but definitely not great.

        • nerdponx a day ago

          I don't have a PhD but I do have some background in economics, and economics is consistently one of the worst areas on HN. I think it's representative of society in general. There's something about economics that makes it feel like you can just reason through it with common sense, whereas that's rarely true in reality.

      • Retric 2 days ago

        IMO HN actually scores quite highly in terms of health/politics and so forth content because the both mainstream and fringe ideas get both shown and pushback.

        A vaping discussion brought up glycerin used was safe and the same thing used in smoke machines and someone else brought up a study showing that smoke machines are an occasional safety issue. Nowhere near every discussion goes that well but stick around and you’ll see in-depth discussion.

        Go to a public health website by comparison and you’ll see warnings without context and a possibility positive spin compared to smoking. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/e-cigarettes/index.html I suspect most people get basically nothing from looking at it.

      • squigz 2 days ago

        I disagree. Even politics spurs intelligent, nuanced discussion here on HN.

        And to hold up discussions about MS as an example of 'extremely' low quality discussion is, ah, interesting. Do you have any recent examples of such discussions?

  • htrp 2 days ago

    Any curation mechanism that depends on passion and/or the goodwill of volunteers is unsustainable.

  • 38 2 days ago

    its so easy to solve this problem, not sure why anyone hasnt done it yet.

    1. build a userbase, free product

    2. once userbase get big enough, any new account requires a monthly fee, maybe $1

    3. keep raising the fee higher and higher, until you get to the point that the userbase is manageable.

    no ads, simple.

    • abridges6523 2 days ago

      This sounds like a good idea. I do wonder if enough people would sign up for it to be a worthy venture because I think the main issue with ads is I think once you add any price at all dramatically reduces participation even if it’s not about cost some people just see the payment and immediately disengage.!

    • [removed] 2 days ago
      [deleted]
    • jachee 2 days ago

      Until N ad views are worth more than $X account creation fee. Then the spammers will just sell ad posts for $X*1.5.

      I can’t find it, but there’s someone selling sock puppet posts on HN even.

squigz 2 days ago

> people consuming auto-generated content to keep the masses from away from critical thinking. This is now happening

The people who stay away from critical thinking were doing that already and will continue to do so, 'AI' content or not.

  • psychoslave 2 days ago

    I don't know, individually finely tuned addictive content served as real time interactive feedback loops is an other level of propaganda and attention capture tool than largest common denominator of the general crowd served as static passive content.

    • squigz 2 days ago

      Perhaps, but the solution is the same either way, and it isn't trying to ban technology or halt progress or just sit and cry about how society is broken. It's educating each other and our children on the way these things work, how to break out of them, and how we might more responsibly use the technology.

  • trehalose 2 days ago

    How did they get started?

    • squigz 2 days ago

      They likely never started critically thinking, so they never had to get started on not doing so.

      (If children are never taught to think critically, then...)

      • sweeter 2 days ago

        It's almost like its a systemic failure that is artificially created so that people wont think critically... hmmm

Llamamoe 2 days ago

> Good will prevail in the end.

Even if, this is a dangerous thought that discourages decisive action that is likely to be necessary for this to happen.

sweeter 2 days ago

tangentially related, but Marx also predicted that crypto and NFT's would exist in 1894 [1] and I only bring it up because its kind of wild how we keep crossing these "red lines" without even blinking. It's like that meme:

Sci-fi author:

I created the Torment Nexus to serve as a cautionary tale...

Tech Company:

Alas, we have created the Torment Nexus from the classic Sci-fi novel "Don't Create the Torment Nexus"

1. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch25.htm

Intralexical 2 days ago

What if the way for good to prevail is to reject technologies and beliefs that have become destructive?