Comment by mandmandam

Comment by mandmandam 10 months ago

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There is one group in Congress dedicated to representing Americans abroad. Since 2007 they've been working to reform the tax code and make the voting process easier. No politician in my state has ever joined - and the tax code remains the same.

Americans abroad are taxed on worldwide income, but don’t get the same benefits; healthcare, infrastructure, education, etc. We pay full price for a system we barely use. The laws on starting a company abroad are arcane; cruel and unusual.

... So I don't feel very represented*.

Again, no other country outside North Korea and Eritrea (a combined population of 30m people) treats their citizens like this. The US just started it because it needed to raise funds during the Civil War, and keeps it because it's a useful way to siphon money.

Non Americans are shocked when they hear of these rules - it's unthinkable. Even Americans are surprised, most have never heard of such a thing.

* Tbf, neither do most Americans these days. According to Pew, only 20% of Americans are 'satisfied with how democracy is working'. 10% feel "hopeful" when thinking about politics, compared to 65% who feel "exhausted".

60 years ago, 77% of people trusted the US govt. Today, 77% of Dem voters wish we'd stop arming war crimes.

ForHackernews 10 months ago

What a load of whinging. You do get the same benefits: Americans abroad can collect social security and medicare benefits, your children can apply to US universities on equal footing with US residents.

The US has tax treaties with almost every country, so you absolutely do not "pay full price" to the IRS unless you're too lazy to deduct the taxes you're paying in your local jurisdiction.

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  • Aeolun 10 months ago

    Any time I hear an American talk about US taxes they sound like it's a major pain in their backside though.

    I just fill "Overseas Income: $xxxxx in xxxxx" and my tax report rolls out as €0 every single year. Because I've already paid my taxes in the country I'm living.

    I can also do this without any specialized software or accountants, which seems to be something kind of iffy in the US.

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    • ForHackernews 10 months ago

      US taxes are objectively more annoying than most countries' and attempts to simplify the process are stymied by people with political axes to grind (e.g. Grover Norquist) and for-profit tax prep firms that stand to lose lots of money: https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-maker-of-turbotax...

      Things might finally be shifting. In recent years, the IRS has introduced its own software that will handle most taxpayers' basic situations.

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  • mandmandam 10 months ago

    > What a load of whinging.

    Aka 'facts you don't like'.

    > You do get the same benefits

    Nope. Definitively, categorically, obviously not.

    > Americans abroad can collect social security

    Social Security eligibility depends on having paid into the system for a certain number of quarters, and some countries do not have Social Security agreements with the U.S.

    > and medicare benefits

    Medicare does not cover healthcare costs outside of the U.S.

    Expats would have to return to the U.S. to use any Medicare benefits, and even then Americans face issues.

    > your children can apply to US universities on equal footing with US residents.

    On equal footing?? No. And again you need to be in America to take advantage of that.

    U.S. universities often treat students living abroad as international students when assessing financial aid or admissions. Access to loans, scholarships, financial aid can be more difficult because of residency status, financial circumstances etc.

    Besides all of which, why wouldn't I be equal to other citizens when applying for college? If I were in US college I'd be paying US taxes.

    > The US has tax treaties with almost every country

    FEIE and FTC help reduce the tax burden, but they require detailed reporting. Complex U.S. tax forms means costly & time-consuming filings - even if no taxes are owed - on top of any weird interactions with the local tax code.

    And, not all foreign taxes are deductible. Foreign investment income, pensions, Social Security-equivalent benefits, etc, aren't always fully excluded.

    > you absolutely do not "pay full price" to the IRS unless you're too lazy to deduct the taxes you're paying in your local jurisdiction.

    That simple is it? Just navigate the US tax code, and all the interactions of it with the country you're in, every year, and let's not even talk about setting up a company. Simple, lol.

    ... Have you ever been through this process yourself? Did you ever even pay an accountant to do it?

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    • ForHackernews 10 months ago

      Yes, I've lived abroad for the last ten years and done my taxes myself the whole time. FACTA is a minor irritation that requires good record keeping on my part, and some annoying paperwork once a year.

      Could it be simplified and streamlined? Absolutely. Does it merit your overwrought hysterics? "Cruel and unusual"? Absolutely laughable.

      If you're wealthy and lazy, then pay an accountant to do it for you - most wealthy, lazy business owners do! If not, do it yourself.

      It really is not that bad! I don't understand how anyone who writes software for a living can be intimidated by IRS forms. I'll fill out Form 8833 twenty times over before I'd fight with cmake or helm charts.

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      • mandmandam 10 months ago

        > Does it merit your overwrought hysterics? "Cruel and unusual"? Absolutely laughable.

        We have established that it's unusual. Only the US, NK and Eritrea demand this, and you've wisely not argued that point.

        As for cruel: yes, definitively so. It causes needless hardship for many and is decidedly unfair. You agree that it's unnecessarily complex, and you seem to have given up on insisting that citizens abroad are equally represented.

        So what's 'hysterical' about calling it cruel and unusual - when it clearly is? What's "laughable" about any of this?

        > I don't understand how anyone who writes software for a living can be intimidated by IRS forms.

        Congrats - you don't have any issues which would prevent you from having trouble with that kind of form and all the work that goes into it.

        Unfortunately, you apparently lack the empathy, or theory of mind, to understand that many if not most people feel quite differently about it.

        There are all sorts of reasons that people (even software programmers) can have a different view on this to you: ADD, form anxiety/aversion, math issues, lack of financial knowledge, fear of legal repercussion, record keeping difficulties, life events, language barriers and issues with legal jargon, cognitive disabilities, accessibility issues, growing up poor, empathy for others, etc.

        Denying their experience to defend something so obviously exploitative, unjust and unnecessary is a really strange hill to battle on.

        What would you personally lose if this situation were corrected? Absolutely nothing. What do you gain from it? Absolutely nothing. You would immediately benefit if these rules were changed. So why are you on this hill bro? What are you trying to do here?

        Why is that whenever someone points out an injustice, there's always someone telling them to stop complaining? (And not politely either.) Often they'll say something like "Well if you hate our rules so much, leave!" - except in this case, I already did, and I'm still affected.

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