Comment by jchw

I used XFCE for a long time and I very much agree. it just works, and is lightweight. I use KDE these days but XFCE would be my second choice.

> The X11 diehards will go the way of the SysV-init diehard

I hope you are not conflating anti-systemD people with SysV init diehards? As far as I can see very few people want to keep Sysv init, but there are lots who think SystemD init is the wrong replacement, and those primarily because its a lot more than an init system.

In many ways the objects are opposite. People hate system D for being more than init, people hate Wayland for doing less than X.

Edit: corrected "Wayland" to "XFCE" in first sentence!

If Rust has one weakness right now, it's bindings to system and hardware libraries. There's a massive barrier in Rust communicating with the outside ecosystem that's written in C. The definitive choice to use Rust and an existing Wayland abstraction library narrows their options down to either creating bindings of their own, or using smithay, the brand new Rust/Wayland library written for the Cosmic desktop compositor. I won't go into details, but Cosmic is still very much in beta.

It would have been much easier and cost-effective to use wlroots, which has a solid base and has ironed out a lot of problems. On the other hand, Cosmic devs are actively working on it, and I can see it getting better gradually, so you get some indirect manpower for free.

I applaud the choice to not make another core Wayland implementation. We now have Gnome, Plasma, wlroots, weston, and smithay as completely separate entities. Dealing with low-level graphics is an extremely difficult topic, and every implementor encounters the same problems and has to come up with independent solutions. There's so much duplicated effort. I don't think people getting into it realize how deceptively complex and how many edge-cases low-level graphics entails.

> The X11 diehards will go the way of the SysV-init diehards; some weird minority

I upvoted your general response but this line was uncalled for. No need to muddy the waters about X11 -> Wayland with the relentlessly debated, interminable, infernal init system comparison.

> Literally no user cares what language a project is implemented in

This is only true most of the time - some languages have properties which "leak" to user.

Like if it's Java process, then sooner or later user will have to mess with launchers and -Xmx option.

Or if it's a process which has lots of code and must not crash, language matters. C or C++ would segfault on any sneeze. Python or Ruby or even Java would stay alive (unless they run out of memory, or hang due to a logic bug)

> The X11 diehards will go the way of the SysV-init diehards; some weird minority that likes to scream about the good old days on web forums but really no one cares about.

Being proud of how you are uncaring towards others is a sad state of affairs.

> Literally no user cares what language a project is implemented in

I think this is true but also maybe not true at the same time.

For one thing, programming languages definitely come with their own ecosystems and practices that are common.

Sometimes, programming languages can be applied in ways that basically break all of the "norms" and expectations of that programming language. You can absolutely build a bloated and slow C application, for example, so just using C doesn't make something minimal or fast. You can also write extremely reliable C code; sqlite is famously C after all, so it's clearly possible, it just requires a fairly large amount of discipline and technical effort.

Usually though, programs fall in line with the norms. Projects written in C are relatively minimal, have relatively fewer transitive dependencies, and are likely to contain some latent memory bugs. (You can dislike this conclusion, but if it really weren't true, there would've been a lot less avenues for rooting and jailbreaking phones and other devices.)

Humans are clearly really good at stereotyping, and pick up on stereotypes easily without instruction. Rust programs have a certain "feel" to them; this is not delusion IMO, it's likely a result of many things, like the behaviors of clap and anywho/Rust error handling leaking through to the interface. Same with Go. Even with languages that don't have as much of a monoculture, like say Python or C, I think you can still find that there are clusters of stereotypes of sorts that can predict program behavior/error handling/interfaces surprisingly well, that likely line up with specific libraries/frameworks. It's totally possible to, for example, make a web page where there are zero directly visible artifacts of what frameworks or libraries were used to make it. Yet despite that, when people just naturally use those frameworks, there are little "tells" that you can pick up on a lot of the time. You ever get the feeling that you can "tell" some application uses Angular, or React? I know I have, and what stuns me is that I am usually right (not always; stereotypes are still only stereotypes, after all.)

So I think that's one major component of why people care about the programming language that something is implemented in, but there's also a few others:

- Resources required to compile it. Rust is famously very heavy in this regard; compile times are relatively slow. Some of this will be overcome with optimization, but it still stands to reason that the act of compiling Rust code itself is very computationally expensive compared to something as simple as C.

- Operational familiarity. This doesn't come into play too often, but it does come into play. You have to set a certain environment variable to get Rust to output full backtraces, for example. I don't think it is part of Rust itself, but the RUST_LOG environment variable is used by multiple libraries in the ecosystem.

- Ease of patching. Patching software written in Go or Python, I'd argue, is relatively easy. Rust, definitely can be a bit harder. Changes that might be possible to shoehorn in in other languages might be harder to do in Rust without more significant refactoring.

- Size of the resulting programs. Rust and Go both statically link almost all dependencies, and don't offer a stable ABI for dynamic linking, so each individual Rust binary will contain copies of all of their dependencies, even if those dependencies are common across a lot of Rust binaries on your system. Ignoring all else, this alone makes Rust binaries a lot larger than they could be. But outside of that, I think Rust winds up generating a lot of code, too; trying to trim down a Rust wasm binary tells you that the size cost of code that might panic is surprisingly high.

So I think it's not 100% true to say that people don't care about this at all, or that only people who are bored and like to argue on forums ever care. (Although admittedly, I just spent a fairly long time typing this to argue about it on a forum, so maybe it really is true.)

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Wayland supports HDR, it's very easy to configure VRR, and it's fractional scaling (if implemented properly) is far superior to anything X11 can offer.

Furthermore, all of these options can be enabled individually on multiple screens on the same system and still offer a good mix-used environment. As someone who has been using HiDPI displays on Linux for the past 7 years, wayland was such a game changer for how my system works.

Even if you dislike Wayland, forwards-going development is clearly centred around it.

Development of X11 has largely ended and the major desktop environments and several mainstream Linux distributions are likewise ending support for it. There is one effort I know of to revive and modernize X11 but it’s both controversial and also highly niche.

You don’t have to like the future for it to be the future.

It's mostly coz nobody really wants to improve X11. I don't think there is many wayland features that would be impossible to implement in X11 it's just nobody wants to dig into crusty codebase to do it.

And sadly wayland decided to just not learn any lessons from X11 and it shows.

We’re accustomed to "the future" connoting progress and improvement. Unfortunately, it isn’t always so (no matter how heavily implied). Just that it’s literally expected to be the future state if matters.

Wayland was the first display system on Linux I've used that just worked perfectly right out of the box on a bog standard Intel iGPU across several machines. I think that is a big draw for a lot of people like myself who just want to get things done. For me X11 represents the past through experience I had when I had to tinker with the X11 config file to get basic stuff like video playback to work smoothly without tearing. My first Wayland install was literally a "wow this is the future of Linux" for me quite honestly when I realised everything just worked without even a single line of config. I would recommend a Wayland distro like Debian to the average computer user knowing Wayland just works -- prior to Wayland I'd be like "well Linux is great but if you like watching YouTube you'll need to add a line to your xorg config to trun on the thingy that smoothes out video playback on Intel iGPUs". Appreciate others have different perpectives -- I come from the POV of someone who likes to install a OS and have all the basic stuff working out of the box.

Because X is not getting much development at this point (personally I still use i3, haven’t switched to Sway, the present works fine for me).

I've been on and off linux desktops since the advent of Wayland. Unsure of the actual issues people run into at this point outside of very niche workflows or applications, to which, there are X11 fallbacks for.

Also, by "commercial linux vendors", you do realize Wayland is directly supported (afaik, correct me if wrong) by the largest commercial linux contributors, Red Hat, Canoncial. They're not simply 'vendors'.

> it doesn't have Android-like separation — a feature no one really wants.

It's certainly a feature I want. Pretty sure I'm not alone in wanting isolation between applications--even GUI ones. There's no reason that various applications from various vendors shouldn't be isolated into their own sandboxes (at least in the common case).

> given that we already had a working GUI. (Maybe that was the intention.)

Neither X11 nor Wayland provide a GUI. Your GUI is provided by GTK or QT or TCL or whatever. X11 had primitive rendering instructions that allowed those GUIs to delegate drawing to a central system service, but very few things do that anymore anyway. Meaning X11 is already just a dumb compositor in practice, except it's badly designed to be a dumb compositor because that wasn't its original purpose. As such, Wayland is really just aligning the protocol to what clients actually want & do.

> "yuck code older than me"

You mean like the code that the Manchester Baby, ENIAC, the Manchester Mark 1, EDSAC and EDVAC ran? Or maybe Plankalkül...

Here's my PoV:

- Having a single X server that almost everyone used lead to ossification. Having Wayland explicitly be only a protocol is helping to avoid that, though it comes with its own growing pains.

- Wayland-the-Protocol (sounds like a Sonic the Hedgehog character when you say it like that) is not free of cruft, but it has been forward-thinking. It's compositor-centric, unlike X11 which predates desktop compositing; that alone allows a lot of clean-up. It approaches features like DPI scaling, refresh rates, multi-head, and HDR from first principles. Native Wayland enables a much better laptop docking experience.

- Linux desktop security and privacy absolutely sucks, and X.org is part of that. I don't think there is a meaningful future in running all applications in their own nested X servers, but I also believe that trying to refactor X.org to shoehorn in namespaces is not worth the effort. Wayland goes pretty radical in the direction of isolating clients, but I think it is a good start.

I think a ton of the growing pains with Wayland come from just how radical the design really is. For example, there is deliberately no global coordinate space. Windows don't even know where they are on screen. When you drag a window, it doesn't know where it's going, how much it's moving, anything. There isn't even a coordinate space to express global positions, from a protocol PoV. This is crazy. Pretty much no other desktop windowing system works this way.

I'm not even bothered that people are skeptical that this could even work; it would be weird to not be. But what's really crazy, is that it does work. I'm using it right now. It doesn't only work, but it works very well, for all of the applications I use. If anything, KDE has never felt less buggy than it does now, nor has it ever felt more integrated than it does now. I basically have no problems at all with the current status quo, and it has greatly improved my experience as someone who likes to dock my laptop.

But you do raise a point:

> It feels like a regression to me and a lot of other people who have run into serious usability problems.

The real major downside of Wayland development is that it takes forever. It's design-by-committee. The results are actually pretty good (My go-to example is the color management protocol, which is probably one of the most solid color management APIs so far) but it really does take forever (My go-to example is the color management protocol, which took about 5 years from MR opening to merging.)

The developers of software like KiCad don't want to deal with this, they would greatly prefer if software just continued to work how it always did. And to be fair, for the most part XWayland should give this to you. (In KDE, XWayland can do almost everything it always could, including screen capture and controlling the mouse if you allow it to.) XWayland is not deprecated and not planned to be.

However, the Wayland developers have taken a stance of not just implementing raw tools that can be used to implement various UI features, but instead implement protocols for those specific UI features.

An example is how dragging a window works in Wayland: when a user clicks or interacts with a draggable client area, all the client does is signal that they have, and the compositor takes over from there and initiates a drag.

Another example would be how detachable tabs in Chrome work in Wayland: it uses a slightly augmented invocation of the drag'n'drop protocol that lets you attach a window drag to it as well. I think it's a pretty elegant solution.

But that's definitely where things are stuck at. Some applications have UI features that they can't implement in Wayland. xdg-session-management for being able to save and restore window positions is still not merged, so there is no standard way to implement this in Wayland. ext-zones for positioning multi-window application windows relative to each-other is still not merged, so there is no standard way to implement this in Wayland. Older techniques like directly embedding windows from other applications have some potential approaches: embedding a small Wayland compositor into an application seems to be one of the main approaches in large UI toolkits (sounds crazy, but Wayland compositors can be pretty small, so it's not as bad as it seems) whereas there is xdg-foreign which is supported by many compositors (Supported by GNOME, KDE, Sway, but missing in Mir, Hyprland and Weston. Fragmentation!) but it doesn't support every possible thing you could do in X11 (like passing an xid to mpv to embed it in your application, for example.)

I don't think it's unreasonable that people are frustrated, especially about how long the progress can take sometimes, but when I read these MRs and see the resulting protocols, I can't exactly blame the developers of the protocols. It's a long and hard process for a reason, and screwing up a protocol is not a cheap mistake for the entire ecosystem.

But I don't think all of this time is wasted; I think Wayland will be easier to adapt and evolve into the future. Even if we wound up with a one-true-compositor situation, there'd be really no reason to entirely get rid of Wayland as a protocol for applications to speak. Wayland doesn't really need much to operate; as far as I know, pretty much just UNIX domain sockets and the driver infrastructure to implement a WSI for Vulkan/GL.

It's a downgrade that we have no choice but to accept in order to continue using our machines. Anyone familiar with Microsoft or Apple already knows that's the future.

Amen brother

> running XFCE on Wayland is going to make it slower

Citation. None of the other desktops have slowed with Wayland, and gaming is as fast as, if not marginally faster on KDE/Gnome with Wayland vs LXDE on X.

https://www.phoronix.com/review/ubuntu-2504-x11-gaming