Comment by ozim
Comment by ozim 4 days ago
It still is engineering you only mistake design phase.
Writing code is the design phase.
You don’t need design phase for doing design.
Will drop link to relevant video later.
Comment by ozim 4 days ago
It still is engineering you only mistake design phase.
Writing code is the design phase.
You don’t need design phase for doing design.
Will drop link to relevant video later.
Googler, but opinions are my own.
I disagree. The design phase of a substantial change should be done beforehand with the help of a design doc. That forces you to put in writing (and in a way that is understandable by others) what you are envisioning. This exercise is really helpful in forcing you to think about alternatives, pitfalls, pros & cons, ... . This way, once stakeholders (your TL, other team members) agreed then the reviews related to that change become only code related (style, use this standard library function that does it, ... ) but the core idea is there.
This should only be a first phase of the design and should be high level and not a commitment. Then you quickly move on to iterate on this by writing working code, this is also part of the design.
Having an initial design approved and set in stone, and then a purely implementation phase is very waterfall and very rarely works well. Even just "pitfalls and pros & cons" are hard to get right because what you thought was needed or would be a problem may well turn out differently when you get hands-on and have actual data in the form of working code.
This is the talk I mentioned in my original comment:
I also read this series of blog posts recently where the author, Hillel Wayne, talked to several "traditional" engineers that had made the switch to software. He came to a similar conclusion and while I was previously on the fence of how much of what software developers do could be considered engineering, it convinced me that software engineer is a valid title and that what we do is engineering. First post here: https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/
Personally I don't need to talk with "traditional" engineers to have an opinion there, as I am mechanical engineer that currently deals mostly with software, but still in the context of "traditional" engineering (models and simulation, controls design).
Definitely making software can be engineering, most of the time it is not, not because of the nature of software, but the characteristics of the industry and culture that surrounds it, and argument in this article is not convincing (15 not very random engineers is not that much to support the argument from "family resemblance").
Engineering is just about wielding tools to solve problems. You don't need to use formal methods to do engineering in general. Sometimes they're useful; sometimes they're required; often they just get in the way.
In the context of software vs other sub-disciplines, the big difference is in the cost of iterating and validating. A bridge has very high iteration cost (generally, it must be right first time) and validation is proven over decades. Software has very low iteration cost, so it makes much more sense to do that over lots of upfront design. Validation of software can also generally be implemented through software tools, since it's comparatively easy to simulate the running environment of the software.
Other disciplines like electronics live a little closer to a bridge, but it's still relatively cheap to iterate, so you tend to plan interim design iterations to prove out various aspects.
"In the context of software vs other sub-disciplines, the big difference is in the cost of iterating and validating."
People forget that software is used in those other disciplines. CFD, FEA, model-based design etc. help to verify ideas and design without building any physical prototype and burning money in the real lab.
You can do some strain and stress analysis on a virtual bridge to get a high degree of confidence that the real bridge will perform fine. Of course, then you need to validate it at all stages of development, and at the end perform final validation under weight.
The thing is that people building engines, cars, planes, sensors, PCBs and bridges actually do so, largely because they are required to do so. If you give them freedom to not do that, many of them will spare themselves such effort. And they understand the principles of things they are working on. No one requires any of that from someone that glued together few NPM packages with a huge JS front-end framework, and such person may not even know anything about how the HTTP works, how browser handles the DOM etc. It's like having a mechanical engineer that doesn't even understand basic principles of dynamics.
There are industries that deal with the software (i.e. controls design) that have much higher degree of quality assurance and more validation tools, including meaningful quantitative criteria, so it clearly is not a matter of software vs hardware.
> Engineering is just about wielding tools to solve problems.
By that standard, doctors and hair stylists are also engineers, as are some chimps and magpies. I don't think it's a useful definition, it's far too broad.
> In the context of software vs other sub-disciplines, the big difference is in the cost of iterating and validating.
No, the big difference is that in the Engineering disciplines, engineers are responsible end-to-end for the consequences of their work. Incompetence or unethical engineers can and regularly do lose their ability to continue engineering.
It's very rare that software developers have any of the rigour or responsibilities of engineers, and it shows in the willingness of developers to write and deploy software which has real-world costs. If developers really were engineers, they would be responsible for those downstream costs.
>Engineering is just about wielding tools to solve problems. You don't need to use formal methods to do engineering in general.
Way to general to be useful. By that definition the store clerk is an engineer (tool cash register, problem solved my lack of gummy bears), janitors swinging a mops, or automotive techs changing oil.
Engineering is applied science.
It wasn't a definition. Everything an engineer does is wield tools to solve problems. That doesn't mean wielding tools to solve problems automatically makes you an engineer. That said, I'm much less restrictive in those I would class as "doing engineering" than many.
But what about other engineering fields? From what I understand, if you compare it to chemical engineering, you have many more similarities, because you’re doing Hypothesis -> Experiment -> Analyze -> Refine -> Repeat, which seems very similar to what we do in software
Mechanical engineering also uses prototypes, iteration, lab testing etc. Building architects build multiple models before the first shovel is put into the ground.
Software is clearly different than "hardware", but it doesn't mean that other industries do not use experiment and iteration.
I was an undergraduate (computer) engineer student, but like many of my friends at that time (dot-com boom) I did not graduate since it was too tempting to get a job and get well paid instead.
However many, probably half, that I work with, and most that I worked with overall for the last 25+ years (since after I dropped out) have an engineering degree. Especially the younger ones, since this century it has been more focus on getting a degree and fewer seems to drop out early to get a job like many of us did in my days.
So when American employers insist on giving me titles like "software engineer" I cringe. It's embarrassing really, since I am surrounded by so many that have a real engineering degree, and I don't. It's like if I dropped out of medical school and then people started calling me "doctor" even if I wasn't one, legally. It would be amazing if we could find a better word so that non-engineers like me are not confused with the legally real engineers.
I've decided that titles are mostly meaningless in software. What X title means in one org means another in a different one with near zero overlap, and another title might have considerable overlap with a differently named one but viewed lowly, borderline pejoratively at another org. Eg system admin vs devops vs sre. In one org sysadmins are deploying desktop machines with no expectations they can cut code, in my old role as one I was working with Linux systems, building glue and orchestration, and when things go wrong debugging backend code written by a development team. Something far closer to the work of "devops" or "sre".
As a aside, I find your example of doctor as amusing because it's overloaded with many considering the term a synonym of physician, and the confusion that can cause with other types of doctors.
This is the talk on real software engineering:
> Writing code is the design phase.
Rich Hickey agrees it's a part of it, yes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5QF2HjHLSE
> Writing code is the design phase.
No, it really isn't. I don't know which amateur operation you've been involved with, but that is really not how things work in the real world.
In companies that are not entirely dysfunctional, each significant change to the system's involve a design phase, which often includes reviews from stakeholders and involved parties such as security reviews and data protection reviews. These tend to happen before any code is even written. This doesn't rule out spikes, but their role is to verify and validate requirements and approaches, and allow new requirements to emerge to provide feedback to the actual design process.
The only place where cowboy coding has a place is in small refactoring, features and code fixes.
It is, as often, a trade-off.
You need a high level design up-front but it should not be set in stone. Writing code and iterating is how you learn and get to a good, working design.
Heavy design specs up-front are a waste of time. Hence, the agile manifesto's "Working software over comprehensive documentation", unfortunately the key qualifier "comprehensive" is often lost along the way...
On the whole I agree that writing code is the design phase. Software dev. is design and test.
> You need a high level design up-front but it should not be cast in stone.
Yes, you need a design that precedes code.
> Writing code and iterating is how you learn and get to a good, working design.
You are confusing waterfall-y "big design upfront" with having a design.
It isn't.
This isn't even the case in hard engineering fields such as aerospace where prototypes are used to iterate over design.
In software engineering fields you start with a design and you implement it. As software is soft, you do not need to pay the cost of a big design upfront.
> You are confusing waterfall-y "big design upfront" with having a design.
I do not and I have explained it.
> In software engineering fields you start with a design and you implement it
And part of my previous comment is that this "waterfall-y" approach in which you design first and implement second does not work and has never worked.
> you do not need to pay the cost of a big design upfront
Exactly, and not only that but usually requirements will also change along the way. The design can change and will change as you hit reality and learn while writing actual, working code. So keep your design as a high-level initial architecture then quickly iterate by writing code to flesh out the design.
Software is often opposed to "traditional engineering" but it is actually the same. How many experiments, prototyopes, iterations go into building a car or a rocket? Many. Engineers do not come up with the final design up front. The difference it is that this is expensive while in software we can iterate much more, much quicker, and for free to get to the final product.
The difference I see is that in other fields, part of your design process is thinking through the logical details of the thing. Essentially, doing some math. In software, the logical details are the finished product. The math is what you're trying to make. If you've actually thought through all of the details, you have written the software (if only in your head). If you haven't thought through all of the details and only figured out a high level design, you've still written some software (essentially, stubbing out some functionality, or leaving it as a dependency to be provided. However you want to think of it). So naturally, one way to think through things is to write software.
Operation that uses software developers not as code monkeys but actual business problem solvers that have also business knowledge.
Operation that delivers features instead of burning budget on discussions.
Operation that uses test/acceptance environments where you deploy and validate the design so people actually see the outcome.
Obviously you have to write down the requirements - but writing down requirements is not design phase.
Design starts with idea, is written down to couple sentences or paragraphs then turned into code and while it is still on test/acceptance it still is design phase. Once feature goes to production in a release "design phase" is done, implementation and changes are part of design and finding out issues, limitations.
This response is rude / insulting and doesn't actually add much because you've just asserted a bunch of fallacious opinions without any meat.
My opinion is reality is more nuanced. Both "the code is self documenting" and "the code is the design" are reasonable takes within reasonable situations.
I'll give an example.
I work in a bureaucratic organization where there's a requirement to share data and a design doc that goes through a series of not-really-technical approvals. The entire point of the process is to be consumable to people who don't really know what an API is. It's an entirely reasonable point of view that we should just create the swagger doc and publish that for approval.
I worked in another organization where everything was an RFC. You make a proposal, all the tech leads don't really understand the problem space, and you have no experience doing the thing, so you get the nod to go ahead. You now have a standard that struggles against reality, and is difficult to change because it has broad acceptance.
I'm not saying we should live in a world with zero non-code artifacts, but as someone who hops org to org, most of the artifacts aren't useful, but a CI/CD that builds, tests, and deploys, looking at the output and looking at the code gives me way more insight that most non-code processes.
I see there has been a “spirited discussion” on this. We can get fairly emotionally invested into our approaches.
In my experience (and I have quite a bit of it, in some fairly significant contexts), “It Depends” is really where it’s at. I’ve learned to take an “heuristic” approach to software development.
I think of what I do as “engineering,” but not because of particular practices or educational credentials. Rather, it has to do with the Discipline and Structure of my approach, and a laser focus on the end result.
I have learned that things don’t have to be “set in stone,” but can be flexed and reshaped, to fit a particular context and development goal, and that goals can shift, as the project progresses.
When I have worked in large, multidisciplinary teams (like supporting hardware platforms), the project often looked a lot more “waterfall,” than when I have worked in very small teams (or alone), on pure software products. I’ve also seen small projects killed by overstructure, and large projects, killed, by too much flexibility. I’ve learned to be very skeptical of “hard and fast” rules that are applied everywhere.
Nowadays, I tend to work alone, or on small teams, achieving modest goals. My work is very flexible, and I often start coding early, with an extremely vague upfront design. Having something on the breadboard can make all the difference.
I’ve learned that everything that I write down, “ossifies” the process (which isn’t always a bad thing), so I avoid writing stuff down, if possible. It still needs to be tracked, though, so the structure of my code becomes the record.
Communication overhead is a big deal. Everything I have to tell someone else, or that they need to tell me, adds rigidity and overhead. In many cases, it can’t be avoided, but we can figure out ways to reduce the burden of this crucial component.
It’s complicated, but then, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.