Comment by hollywood_court

Comment by hollywood_court 19 hours ago

19 replies

Law enforcement needs greater accountability altogether.

I’ve long believed that police officers should be required to carry private liability insurance, just like professionals in many other high risk fields. If an officer is uninsurable, they should be unhireable, plain and simple. Repeated misconduct would drive up their premiums or disqualify them entirely, creating a real consequence for bad behavior.

It’s astonishing that police officers aren’t held to the same standards as the rest of us. As a carpenter and building contractor, if I showed up at the wrong address and built or tore down something by mistake, I’d be financially and legally responsible. I’d be expected to make it right, and my insurance would likely step in.

But when a police officer raids the wrong home, injures or kills innocent people, or throws tear gas into a room with a baby, there’s rarely accountability—legal, financial, or professional. That’s unacceptable in any system that claims to serve and protect the public.

pjc50 17 hours ago

> But when a police officer raids the wrong home, injures or kills innocent people, or throws tear gas into a room with a baby, there’s rarely accountability—legal, financial, or professional. That’s unacceptable in any system that claims to serve and protect the public.

The American public, or at least the set of them whose vote counts among the gerrymandering, have explicitly chosen this. Their representatives are now building an even less accountable system to be used against "immigrants", i.e. anyone non-white, who can be abducted and denied legal representation.

Spooky23 17 hours ago

That’s a dangerous slippery slope. Most public officers (employees) are subject to a wide range of ethics and other regulations that impact post-service employment. In exchange, you’re indemnified for official acts and the government has a duty to defend you.

I’ve served in policy making roles at different levels of government. There’s a variety of businesses post employment that I’m not permitted to enter in post employment, some for 2-5 years, some indefinitely. Those restrictions are taken seriously, and I know that I’ll be held accountable.

Putting the onus on the employee is really enabling bad behavior - the issue is the poor governance of the police, and using the courts as some sort of cudgel won’t fix it, it will just create more corruption as the powers that be will hang out patsies to take the fall.

If the police are allowed to operate paramilitary forces, they need paramilitary discipline and rules of engagement. Army soldiers breaking rules of engagement get punished and officers sidelined and pushed out of the service. Police in many cases have been allowed to create cultures where everyone scratches each others back. Many police are veterans, and many privately will comment on the differences between those experiences.

IMO, the way to address the issues you describe is standard separation of duties. Invest in state and regional police forces, disempower local police, and move enforcement and investigation of police to a chain of command removed from the police. (Perhaps a State AG) When you need to blunt the variance associated with people’s poor application of discretion, the answer is usually a bureaucratic process.

  • nemomarx 17 hours ago

    The difficulty with enforcing via AGs is that prosecutors feel the need to have a good relationship with the police for their other cases. You need an office who isn't going to be working with local and state cops at all, maybe a federal body?

    • Spooky23 16 hours ago

      Attorneys General are usually not states or district attorneys. That may vary by state — I’m not an expert in this… iv lived in Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York, where the role doesn’t include that so my perspective.

      Point being, as much separation as possible from the police (or any) chain of command is essential. The Federal government successfully used independent agencies until the circus that came to town with Trump part 2 appeared.

  • rendaw 8 hours ago

    Why is idemnification an appropriate answer to post-service restrictions? What do you mean by ethics regulations? What sorts of fields are public employees forbidden from working at post-employment? How is gp's statement a slippery slope?

  • KingMob 5 hours ago

    > Those restrictions are taken seriously, and I know that I’ll be held accountable

    I applaud your honesty, but in many ways, neither of those statements apply to police in practice, even if they theoretically apply legally.

tbrownaw 18 hours ago

> I’ve long believed that police officers should be required to carry private liability insurance, just like professionals in many other high risk fields. If an officer is uninsurable, they should be unhireable, plain and simple. Repeated misconduct would drive up their premiums or disqualify them entirely, creating a real consequence for bad behavior.

And it'd be administered by some faceless bureaucracy full of accountants, rather than a couple local politicians that the union can just bully (or bribe or whatever) into ignoring things.

But of course the current mess derives from sovereign immunity, which might be a bit tricky to get the politicians to tinker with more than they already have. :(

  • messe 17 hours ago

    > sovereign immunity

    I think you mean qualified immunity in this context?

    • tbrownaw 17 hours ago

      My understanding is that that's the result of the tinkering that's already been done to tone things down a bit.

potato3732842 8 hours ago

>Law enforcement needs greater accountability altogether.

Which is directly contrary to what's good for the state. So unless the lack of accountability is more threatening to the state than less useful to the state law enforcement is the lack of accountability will remain. At best it might get slightly better over decades.

FireBeyond 18 hours ago

> But when a police officer raids the wrong home, injures or kills innocent people, or throws tear gas into a room with a baby, there’s rarely accountability—legal, financial, or professional.

It's not just that there's rarely accountability - there's explicitly no accountability.

People have sued officers, police departments, cities for the cost of damages from such mistaken raids (including ones that were completely negligent, like wrong street entirely) and the courts have explicitly ruled that they have zero reponsibility to pay for any of the damage caused.

barbazoo 18 hours ago

Chesterton’s fence cones to mind. I wonder what unintended positive effects the current policy has.

  • majormajor 16 hours ago

    IMO Chesterton'ing the state of policing in the US results in deep fundamental awkwardness.

    Why are police heavily armed and adopting military tactics?

    Because of famous encounters with heavily-armed criminals by lightly-equipped cops.

    Why are criminals able to be so heavily armed?

    Because of treating a "right to bear arms" as semi-sacred. Supposedly in the name of distrust of government.

    A heavily-armed citizenry doesn't have to lead to fascism but it can certainly give people great excuses to enable it... (See also how it allows the existence of armed private militias who will talk about "standing by" to assist with certain government actions.)

  • acdha 15 hours ago

    Qualified immunity is a relatively modern invention by the Supreme Court. The origins were fairly reasonable in the civil rights era, saying in Pierson v. Ray that some Mississippi police officers were not liable for enforcing a state law against assembly which was later ruled to be unconstitutional, which is probably the strongest case for a positive effect.

    The negatives started mounting as it was rapidly expanded from the question of whether the action was legal at the time as in the Mississippi case to whether the officer violated clearly-established precedent for the specific actions they made. There really isn’t a positive argument for that better than “the courts invented a doctrine because Congress didn’t set a clean policy”. Because it ties into some hot-button political issues now, we’re unlikely to see improvements for a while but it is interesting to contemplate the alternate timeline where the Markey/Booker/Harris resolution in 2020 actually turned into a law.

  • drewbeck 16 hours ago

    Is your question what’s the positive effect of an unaccountable and violent police force? In general the effect is continued terrorization of poor and black and brown communities and the entrenchment of the police’s municipal power. This is a “positive” effect only to the worst people who want a hierarchical society where they get to be on top by force.

    • barbazoo 4 hours ago

      You’re describing a rather far end of the spectrum. I’m thinking of police having sort of a monopoly on violence. And being “too weak” would come with its own challenges.

  • ImPostingOnHN 17 hours ago

    Chesterton's fence, as properly applied, should have been considered when granting the immunity we see now.

    e.g. I wonder what unintended (or perhaps intended) negative effects the current policy has compared to the previous one.

moron4hire 18 hours ago

Politically, you could probably sell the insurance idea as actually protecting officers. But then you'd get the wrong people opposing it...

  • lapphi 12 hours ago

    We could call it a cost cutting measure to save the taxpayer billions in unnecessary legal fees and settlements.