phony-account a day ago

Is this the wrong time to rant about font licensing though? I’ve always bought and paid for fonts, but as I’ve gradually transitioned to mobile app development, I one day realized that all the fonts I bought for print are now worthless to me.

These crazy outdated licenses that let you print as many magazines or books you want forever, for a one-time price. But if your hobby is making apps, then suddenly the same font will cost you 50 times more - for a single year.

I guess these font sellers imagine there’s still some app boom - a Klondike rush with developers bathing in dollars. Maybe if their licenses were more realistic, piracy would be less of a problem.

  • tptacek a day ago

    There is maybe nothing in the entire world that I am less sympathetic towards than the cause of font piracy / font liberation. You have perfectly good --- in fact, historically excellent --- fonts loaded by default for free on any computer you buy today. Arguing for the oppression of font licenses is, to me, like arguing about how much it costs to buy something at Hermès. Just don't shop at Hermès.

    • readbeard 14 hours ago

      Part of the problem is that Monotype has a bit of a monopoly in the upper segment of the market though right? I know they're not the only players, but it feels like they've vacuumed up enough small, successful foundries that they now control enough of the market that they can get away with the kind of aggressive behavior that wouldn't be tenable in a healthier, more competitive marketplace.

      From Wikipedia [0]

      > Via acquisitions including Linotype GmbH, International Typeface Corporation, Bitstream, FontShop, URW, Hoefler & Co., Fontsmith, Fontworks [ja] and Colophon Foundry, the company has gained the rights to major font families including Helvetica, ITC Franklin Gothic, Optima, ITC Avant Garde, Palatino, FF DIN and Gotham. It also owns MyFonts, used by many independent font design studios.[3] The company is owned by HGGC, a private equity firm.

      For those less familiar with them, those are BIG names, and the acquisition of them could perhaps aptly be compared, for instance, to Disney's acquisitions of properties like Lucasfilm and Marvel.

      [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotype_Imaging

      • tptacek 6 hours ago

        Serious question: who cares? There is no scarcity of high quality fonts (there are more of them available to ordinary people today than at any point in history). So they control Hoefler. If that's a problem for you, don't use Hoefler faces.

    • gkoberger a day ago

      I agree the average person is likely fine with the fonts on their computer, but this is profoundly misunderstanding the importance of design. Typefaces are incredibly important, and have been for centuries.

      I'd argue that complaining about font prices is less like a Hermes bag, and more like complaining about high-end ingredients when a supermarket has cheap stuff. Yes, you can get away with cheaper materials when cooking, but the final product will deeply suffer.

      • lolinder a day ago

        Even under this analogy you're complaining about the price of luxury goods and saying that it's no wonder people shoplift to steal the truffles because they're so darn expensive.

        If you can't afford the license for the font, your app is small-time enough that you can make do with one of the many, many high-quality fonts that are available for free, there's no need to pirate it. If your app is big enough that the difference matters, then you can likely afford the sticker price.

      • fmbb a day ago

        There are roughly zero apps out there that would ”deeply suffer” from having to use freely available and/or system supported fonts.

      • brailsafe 21 hours ago

        Yes, and no, but why and when? What makes any particular typeface more or less important had it been something different?

        When I was younger and a bit more haughty about design, I would have agreed, but now I feel like I need more to substantiate the claim, even thought I feel like I agree.

        > I'd argue that complaining about font prices is less like a Hermes bag, and more like complaining about high-end ingredients when a supermarket has cheap stuff. Yes, you can get away with cheaper materials when cooking, but the final product will deeply suffer.

        This also needs a bit more. In what cases would some dish suffer "deeply" simply from having used commodity ingredients (a quality that's a core tenant in many famous designers' approaches)? You could more easily argue that something isn't the same as another, or perhaps less appealing visually, or perhaps less nutritionally dense, but it all seems a bit specious to me. Some cases would be significant, such as the choice of a garden tomato over a store tomato, but that's hardly a high-end concern, and why would high-end concerns be all that important anyway?

        My opinion is that design is as important as the problems it solves or the outcome it produces, and the existence and selection of appropriate typefaces can be a core component in that, it would not be easy to make a strong value oriented argument for the discrete choice of one expensive typeface over another commodity typeface unless one evidently solves a problem better, or its value is already established because of the association with an existing identity that already uses it.

        That's not to say they aren't worth paying for, or that licensing them isn't an issue, it's just kind of a debatable question how much one over another is worth or how important it is, much like art in general or other creative works.

      • hnfong 17 hours ago

        If you often use custom fonts that aren't preinstalled on typical systems, I can't help but wonder whether you also painstakingly choose fonts for non-latin character/non-latin based languages?

        I'll admit opening a can of worms on purpose, but if you're going for the "high-end", ignoring the i18n implications seems like a crime on its own, and yet most people don't really have the design expertise to evaluate whether a font looks good in another totally foreign language...

        • nine_k 17 hours ago

          Non-Latin? Well, OK, Greek and Cyrillic are close enough to Latin to be able to design the font for them following approximately the same style which apply to the Latin characters. You can make a Cyrillic Tahoma or a Greek Signika in line with the Latin variants. I'd say that this is the reasonable limit of non-latin support.

          If you take Hebrew, Korean, Georgian, Armenian, Thai, hiragana, katakana, you're in trouble. They all have different proportions, traditions, connections. You can stylize them a bit to be reminiscent of the way the Latin font is made, but you'll have hard time making a Hebrew font with large serifs like Bodoni, and will have hard time making it materially different from Times New Roman in a convincing way. It's better to make a separate typeface.

          Arabic / Persian / Urdu, or hanji are their own worlds altogether, hardly comparable to Western typography.

      • Aeolun a day ago

        Modern included fonts aren’t that bad. It’s more like using tomato sauce instead of fancy handmade chilli.

        Your meal doesn’t deeply suffer, it’s just a bit bland.

      • nine_k 16 hours ago

        There is a large number of free qualify fonts available at fonts.google.com, many of them are free for commercial use outside the web. There is also a handful of pretty good fonts not included in that collection but also freely available. (This is on top of good collections of fonts shipped with major OSes.)

        There is a number of free fonts which are also free for commercial use, but are clearly inadequate for serious typographic work, or only contain highly stylized glyphs. They may still be perfectly usable for a game, or a mobile app which is not typography-heavy. In many cases, the shortcomings are only visible at paper resolution, or only in print as opposed to screen.

        Then, there is a number of not very expensive fonts that cost $50-100 per face. If you really badly need a font exactly like that for a commercial project, and $200-300 is a prohibitively expensive for a permanent license you obtain, how much is the commercial project worth? Is it worth sweating over that very particular font?

      • johnisgood 17 hours ago

        > Yes, you can get away with cheaper materials when cooking, but the final product will deeply suffer.

        This heavily depends. As I mentioned before, cheaper materials did not always mean shittier, especially when it comes to cooking. Around here, healthy food is still cheaper (especially the ingredients) than junk food, although the recent increase in prices (of everything) is wild.

      • cgio 20 hours ago

        I guess if they are so important we should be paying for them. Not that you argue against it per se, but in discussion context.

      • bigiain a day ago

        So "Typefaces are incredibly important", just not important enough to pay for (or create yourself)???

      • hiccuphippo 18 hours ago

        To buy fonts you have to care about design but not too much. If you do then you'll draw your text so it's a unique "font" instead of buying a premade font that other people can also buy.

      • babypuncher a day ago

        My problem with this analogy is that there are dozens if not hundreds of free typefaces that are exceptionally high quality and have stood the test of time.

        The "problem" with free typefaces isn't their quality, it's their ubiquity. Since everyone can use them, they are used everywhere. Licensing something less common can help your product stand out from the crowd.

        • moron4hire a day ago

          Or you could try implementing good features to try to stand out from the crowd.

          Frankly, non-default fonts outside of the logo are a red flag to me. They signal a team that has put form so far over function that the function is almost guaranteed to not be fit for purpose.

      • immibis 14 hours ago

        If they're profoundly important for the design of your money-making app, the principle of "fuck you, pay me" applies. If you're making $50,000 every year and you couldn't do that without the design and you couldn't do the design without the font, pay up.

        If they're profoundly important for the design of your free software app... we all know how likely it is for a free software app to have good design. You'd be the first.

      • fooker 20 hours ago

        > Typefaces are incredibly important, and have been for centuries.

        Is there hard statistical evidence for this?

      • wubrr a day ago

        > misunderstanding the importance of design

        Almost every font, style, pattern, component used in any new app today has already been designed, implemented, redesigned and reimplemented 20 times over. 'The importance of design' and all of the associated rhetorical BS only really serve to keep redundant (imo) designers employed.

        > like complaining about high-end ingredients when a supermarket has cheap stuff. Yes, you can get away with cheaper materials when cooking, but the final product will deeply suffer.

        Can you actually make an objective argument for why certain fonts are more high-quality than existing free/open fonts, or how free/open fonts will make a product deeply suffer? I'd wager you can't.

        I've worked closely with many designers behind some very popular 'nice' award-winning apps. I've listened to endless rhetorical BS about how 'this specific element of the design is incredibly important and any deviation is a major hit to the product quality'. These same designers very very rarely even notice when an incorrect font/color, styling/layout is used, while arguing that any such deviation will ruin customer trust destroy the app. Complete BS.

    • wvh 13 hours ago

      I don't know what a Hermès is or connotates, but I think the complaint is as much about the artificial and seemingly arbitrary restrictions as opposed to purely the price.

      You can try to create a Veblen good out of a digital artifact and play the all or nothing game, but it's proven very hard to restrict something which can be copied at no cost and with no limitations.

      When you buy expensive clothes, it would be silly for the seller to try and license them to be only worn on Mondays, or at dress-code events, or based on your taxable income. People are not going to take your "license" seriously, even if you'd have some legal grounds and might well win a legal argument.

      I have a great deal of admiration for artists and designers, and I know that creating a multiple-variant typeface with great applicability that's either historically correct or truly innovative is an art form.

      This reminds me of Napster-era debates about artists' rights versus distribution.

      • llbeansandrice 12 hours ago

        It’s not uncommon to require clients to develop a relationship with the retailer before they’re allowed to buy the more exclusive goods. It’s not the same as the licensing analogy but it’s close.

        Imagine needing to spend 300% of an item’s cost at the retailer before you’re allowed the chance to buy the thing you actually want.

      • TeMPOraL 12 hours ago

        > When you buy expensive clothes, it would be silly for the seller to try and license them to be only worn on Mondays, or at dress-code events, or based on your taxable income. People are not going to take your "license" seriously, even if you'd have some legal grounds and might well win a legal argument.

        That's why the usual approach, especially in this industry, is to not give people choice in the first place - this is achieved by renting, instead of selling.

        Clothes as a Service is already a thing. A CaaS with excessively specific restriction of use? Might not be - yet. No doubt someone will try it.

    • AlchemistCamp a day ago

      Hermes doesn't forbid you from wearing your watch or charge 10x more for you to wear it while playing a mobile game.

      I think a lot of the anger is more about the complexity and price discrimination than the absolute price.

      • tptacek 21 hours ago

        If Hermès did forbid me from carrying my (hypothetical) wallet more than 3 times a week, I simply would not buy that wallet. It would not become a moral crusade.

    • butlike 2 hours ago

      In my experience part of the pain is having some decision-maker or stake-holder getting married to a design during the mockup phase. A lot of the mockup generators will use fonts you'll have to license later for free in the mockup.

    • rendaw 21 hours ago

      I feel like you're arguing against a point GP entirely didn't make. GP is saying there's a market mismatch here - there's money on the table that font makers are ignoring, and simultaneously apps end up using uglier default fonts. Both parties could benefit from meeting in the middle.

      • tptacek 20 hours ago

        I agree except for the "piracy would be less of a problem" thing.

    • z3t4 13 hours ago

      There are very few fonts that exist in all the major platforms. But there are excellent free and open source fonts that you can use. I also want to point out that if you make an "app" and publish it on a platform like appstore, you are basically a slave to the platform.

    • threatofrain 18 hours ago

      I'd say the same about shows and movies, which is where the supermajority of this conversation is typically focused, especially given how much free content is over YouTube.

      • tptacek 18 hours ago

        I do believe that about shows and movies and have argued that point here in the past, but it's especially true of typefaces.

    • luckylion a day ago

      Do you consider fonts largely useless, overpriced and primarily directed at customers who seek to display status symbols? Because that's the analogy, I'm not sure I agree.

      But the prices are off the charts, and it's the usual private-equity buying up the competition & their IP and then squeezing as much as they can. Not sure why that's worth rooting for.

    • benatkin 21 hours ago

      Well if the same font could be independently discovered, would your view change at all? Of course at high resolutions this is unlikely but I feel like if I made the same image within 5 pixels wide and 9 pixels high and two colors as some font it might be accused of being similar, much like with some accusations in music.

    • kevingadd a day ago

      The fonts loaded on one machine are typically not loaded reliably on all machines, so you need to distribute fonts with your application. Doing this is probably a violation of the license that all those "free fonts" were distributed under, so your only options are:

      1. Public Domain Fonts

      2. Fonts that cost money

      The set of public domain fonts is pretty small and most of them are low quality - not all, thankfully - and out of the ones that don't suck a lot of them only support the latin character set.

      As for fonts that cost money, just to give you one example, I recently asked a foundry what it would cost to license a font for my indie game. Their quote was $1100/yr with a ceiling of 300k copies sold (so I'd need to come back and pay them more on a yearly basis and the cost would go up if I was successful). This was only for 3 variants - regular, italic and medium - and only for the latin character set. For one typeface.

      Certainly if I was throwing around millions of dollars I could pay that without blinking, but it's far out of reach for independent developers (and they know I'm independent)

      Lots of games distribute "baked fonts", where the ttf/otf is statically rendered into a bunch of texture atlases and they ship the atlases instead of the font. Many font licenses I've seen don't permit this kind of use, so I suspect a lot of games are actually in violation of their font licenses, if they paid to license their fonts at all.

      Hell, just the other day I prepared a PowerPoint presentation for work using one of the stock Office fonts and then I opened it in Office on another machine and the font was missing...

      • badmintonbaseba 14 hours ago

        There is a large range of permissive licensing between public domain and "fonts that cost money". Free as in freedom Linux distros ship a sizable set of fonts, and I'm sure most of them are licensed permissively.

      • tasuki 10 hours ago

        What? There's an endless supply of permissively licensed fonts, eg on Google Fonts. Many of them are actually pretty good. Yes, you'll find some bad ones too.

    • dcow 20 hours ago

      I guess you’ve never worked with one of those designers whose friend’s cofounder’s VC’s boyfriend shops at Neeman Marcus. Try telling one of them they have to use a normal legible tried and true font :s

  • Aurornis 21 hours ago

    > I guess these font sellers imagine there’s still some app boom - a Klondike rush with developers bathing in dollars.

    The way this works is the design team picks some font, uses it on all of the design proposals, gets it approved by management, and then only later does a developer realize it’s a paid font they’ve been asked to put in the app. The teams want to avoid going back for design change approvals so eventually they just give up and pay the money.

    It’s not developers picky boutique expensive fonts, in my experience. It’s the designers who don’t think about the consequences because by they point it’s off their plate.

  • odo1242 21 hours ago

    To be fair though, there’s so many open source fonts out there of good quality that you don’t have to pay anyone to use their font. Why go against copyright laws when you can just use fonts like Roboto (or really, anything on Google Fonts) for free?

  • thordenmark 2 hours ago

    I really good font is a fine work of craftsmanship that is time consuming to make. The type designer deserves compensation for their work.

    There are also plenty of license free, and B-tier fonts available if you are on a tight budget.

  • cut3 17 hours ago

    As a mostly now digital designer I get it... but also realize that digital has the capacity to scale instantly where print doesnt. Want to get 40 million editions out digitally? Gimme a sec. Physically? Gonna need to get some investment capital and a few years ramp up.

  • nativeit a day ago

    This maybe isn't relevant to your point, but the story in question is from long before mobile apps.

    Also, just for anyone cruising the comments before reading the story, it is more about the "You wouldn't steal a car" PSA's from >20-ish years ago. I don't recall there being any explicit advocacy for font licensing anywhere in it.

  • zeroq a day ago

    And god forbid you to accidently ship the font with your game or mobile app! :)

    • grishka a day ago

      How does one even use a font in an app without shipping it with the app? In a logo or something?

      • int_19h 9 hours ago

        By using a font that is guaranteed to be provided by the system on which the app is running. Both Windows, macOS, iOS, and Android all make such guarantees.

        Linux DEs generally don't, but perhaps they should, given that open fonts with decent quality and extensive coverage are out there. Something like the Noto family.

  • glitchc 6 hours ago

    Why not just use free fonts? There are so many available that are perfectly good for most use-cases.

  • whywhywhywhy 10 hours ago

    Legally they’re software so yeah it’s the same as licensing a proprietary piece of code.

  • al_borland a day ago

    I've only purchased one font, which I use in my editor and terminal, so I don't have to worry much about the license. I can't be bothered to use custom fonts for any projects. With all the licensing considerations it just makes me cut out the whole idea to simplify my life.

    • econ 19 hours ago

      Send in the LLMs!

      Jokes aside, I'm not very impressed with this single color font art. Maybe in 30 years we will have 16 color fonts?

      The color fonts currently work in Firefox and Edge, Safari support SBIX, Chrome on Android has CBDT

      I can barely find a website that has an example. The ones I found have a few characters or a single sentence, very few fonts and they are not very pretty. Some of the implementations warn that the client might catch fire.

      I'm not impressed.

      Some random examples of the state of the art.

      https://www.throwup.it/en/artists/mars/

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  • pier25 a day ago

    I only purchase fonts for graphic design projects (mostly branding). For UIs I'm perfectly happy with Google Fonts.

  • wyager a day ago

    I haven't bought a ton of fonts, but iirc the licensing from US Graphics was pretty reasonable for software distribution. It was something like an extra $200 for app usage for an indie developer.

  • [removed] a day ago
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  • refulgentis a day ago

    In general, AFAIK, the general assumption is every font is absurdly easy to steal, and that you'll do so before purchasing it.

    So it's de facto "free unlimited trial, free for personal use, pay for business if you have a soul and shame"

    • grishka a day ago

      Depends on the country.

      I researched it for Russia recently and apparently the law is much stricter about fonts here than in the US. Both the character shapes and the "code" are copyrightable so you ain't getting away with converting it into a different format either. Companies did get sued over this and did have to pay millions of rubles in fines and licensing fees for their past usage. Not sure about individuals but I wouldn't try my luck with any non-free fonts made by Russian designers.

      • BeFlatXIII a day ago

        > I wouldn't try my luck with any non-free fonts made by Russian designers.

        Depends if your home country cares about Russian civil court or not.

      • fooker 20 hours ago

        Huh, this is interesting. Given that Russia has been the hub of internet piracy for theast three decades.

        • grishka 19 hours ago

          That's because copyright in Russia is only enforced for companies. If you pirate something for personal use, no one would care, thankfully.

    • jsheard a day ago

      I would suggest not pushing your luck with webfonts though, because in that case you are distributing the actual copyrighted "code" of the font, not just the minimally protected shapes that it outputs. There are services which crawl the web actively looking for pirated webfonts on behalf of foundries (and their lawyers).

      • SoMomentary 11 hours ago

        I had this happen to a client and even though they had both the web and print licenses they were hit with a 50k suite because the font file was malformed somehow. I'm not sure how it shook out but I hope they didn't pay a god damn cent.

      • 0cf8612b2e1e a day ago

        How robust is that identification? Does it just look for file hashes or identical character shapes? I imagine it is trivial to repackage a font file to break the hash fingerprint.

  • lgiordano_notte a day ago

    font licensing feels like it never caught up with how software actually gets made now. charging more for app use than for mass print always seemed backwards, especially when indie devs are scraping by and a font costs more than your backend. no wonder people end up using “free alternatives” without looking too hard at where they came from.

    • nickff a day ago

      I am of the opinion that the licenses for fonts in software are too expensive, but why is the pricing ‘backwards’? Book publishers don’t make a lot of profit, while software developers do.

      • teruakohatu a day ago

        > Book publishers don’t make a lot of profit, while software developers do.

        Do you have a citation for that?

        Printing a book costs just about nothing, it’s astonishingly cheap to print a quality book in volume. Author royalties are not that high (I suppose famous authors whose name alone sell books is another story), then you have retail margins and overhead.

        The top three book publishers’ have sales in the low billions with operating margins in the 10 - 20% range.

        It is a healthy industry even if it is smaller than it used to be.

        The one problem with books is that shipping an individual book to a single consumer costs a far more than printing the book, but there is zero shipping and zero printing costs for ebooks, just the retailer margin.

      • worik a day ago

        > while software developers do.

        Ouch!

        What is wrong with me then?

  • gorgoiler a day ago

    Whatever the answer, I would caution you to listen carefully to the most product / marketing centric person who dares speak up.

    Font licensing feels like God tier product marketing.

azalemeth a day ago

That is an absolutely brilliant turn of events – strong evidence that the font in an anti-piracy campaign was itself arguably a copyright-infringing knock-off.

Someone should sue FACT for copyright infringement – and refuse to settle.

  • nailer a day ago

    The song is also stolen: it’s an unauthorised interpolation of one man army by the prodigy:

    https://open.spotify.com/track/65zwPZvsUCU55IpyWddFsK?si=bBf...

  • charcircuit a day ago

    You can't copyright a font.

    • WillAdams a day ago

      A typeface design, in the U.S., no, but the digital font file comprising outline data and instructions, according to current U.S. law, for an overview of current case law and a proposal see:

      https://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/chtlj/vol10/iss1/5/

      • crazygringo a day ago

        There's no evidence XBAND Rough was extracted from a digital source bit-for-bit, unless someone can point to any?

        It seems like it was just a hobbyist project to recreate the look of the font from the anti-piracy ads? Which is 100% legal.

        Edit: OK, so the original font appears to be "FF Confidential"? Why didn't the post even mention that? So maybe it is a digital clone, which would be illegal. But then strange that there aren't any DMCA takedowns of it on major font sites?

      • pessimizer a day ago

        If it were the same file, it wouldn't be a "knock-off." It would be something like Optifonts. Very frowned upon, but definitely not illegal. Also, the kerning is usually trash, there will be way too many nodes in the vectors, and things may be missing. Annoying to work with, but in the case of Optifonts, free (because they're long out of business.)

        http://abfonts.freehostia.com/opti/

        https://luc.devroye.org/fonts-27506.html

    • NikkiA a day ago

      FACT/FAST are a UK organisation, where font copyright is espressly enumerated in the copyright law.

    • datadrivenangel a day ago

      They absolutely are copyrighted and big money.

      • EvanAnderson a day ago

        In the US you can't copyright the shape of a font. You can copyright the programmatic description of a font.

        Design patents have been awarded for fonts. Trademark and trade dress protections could apply to the specific use of a font but not the font itself. The name of a font itself can be protected by trademark, as well.

        It's kind of a fascinating topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_protecti...

        Edit: Back in the mid-90s versions of Corel Draw came with a Truetype editor. A friend of mine made "knock off" versions of fonts they liked from magazines, etc, and made them freely available on his ISP-provided web space. They drew them by hand, using printed samples as the inspiration.

        Over the years they got some angry messages from a few "type people" who didn't like that they'd made freely available knock-offs of various fonts. (I remember that "Keedy Sans" is one they knocked-off and got a particularly angry email about.)

        Further aside: My fiend made a sans serif typeface that has a distinct pattern of "erosion" at the edges and voids within the letters. It's easy to tell when it's the font he made. For the last 30 years I've kept samples of the various places I've seen it used, both on the Internet and on physical articles. I find it so amazing that a TTF file made by a kid in Corel Draw in 1994 or 1995 ended up being used in advertisements, on packaging, etc.

      • colechristensen a day ago

        You can, entirely legally, make a copy of any font and distribute it freely.

        You can't copy the font files themselves, but you can make visually indistinguishable new fonts with the same shapes because the shapes are not protected by copyright.

        Additionally though, some fonts have design patents, which does protect the shape. Unlike copyright which has absolutely crazy expiration (like 150 years occasionally?) these patents only cover 15 to 20 years or shorter if abandoned.

        An example of Apple patenting a font valid 2017 to 2032: https://patents.google.com/patent/USD786338S1/en

    • andirk a day ago

      "You wouldn't copyright a font"

    • xyst a day ago

      You can copyright just about anything as long as you have the _money_

      T-Mobile trademarked a very specific pink, "Magenta"

      There’s even a company that holds trademarks on a set of colors, Pantone.

      Courts have yet to reverse or revoke these silly trademarks.

      • usefulcat 21 hours ago

        Trademark and copyright are not the same thing..

      • lotsofpulp 20 hours ago

        T-Mobile does not have a trademark on the color magenta, nor does Pantone on any colors.

        The trademark is for using that color to market your product such that a buyer might assume they are buying T-mobile, but in reality they are not.

        Or for Pantone, that a buyer is buying a color quality controlled by Pantone.

  • NoMoreNicksLeft a day ago

    > was itself arguably a copyright-infringing knock-off.

    In US law, there is no such thing. The shape of a glyph (or many) isn't even slightly copyrightable. This is settled law. Fonts (on computers) have a special status that makes them semi-copyrightable in that some jackass judge from the 1980s called them "computer programs" and so they have the same protection as software... but this won't protect against knockoffs.

    • codedokode a day ago

      Is this fair? It actually takes a lot of work (I assume) to design letter's shapes. Of course, not counting those who just trace 16-th century font without paying a compensation.

      • amgutier a day ago

        > Of course, not counting those who just trace 16-th century font without paying a compensation

        I can't tell which way you mean this, but that sounds similar to the situation with most public domain musical compositions - the manuscripts may be completely open but a specific typesetting can still under copyright. And like that case, "just" tracing a font / typesetting a composition is still a fair amount of work.

      • pc86 7 hours ago

        Who are you paying for a 400-year old font? Who deserves to get paid for a 400-year old font?

    • rafram a day ago

      They are computer programs. Not sure why you’d crudely insult the judge for saying that.

      • echoangle 15 hours ago

        Are fonts really programs? Is a digital image file also a program?

        A font file is more like a config that’s used by your OS to render something, there’s no real interactivity in fonts (except some ligatures but those are just static tables, right?).

mrkeen a day ago

They stole the music too.

Anti-pirating ad music stolen [2013]: https://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/01/29/3678851.h...

  • shadowgovt a day ago

    If one didn't know better, one could conclude the history of this ad campaign suggests it was performance art done by creatives ideologically opposed to the client.

    • alabastervlog a day ago

      I'm sure these artist-loving folks just paid the very cheapest ad/video agency they could find to make this that seemed capable of completing the project, and that agency was the kind of place that does sloppy stuff like that (many do, haha).

rglover a day ago

I would happily pay for any font if I could get individual weights for say $5-$10 and entire families for $20-100 with any usage I want (print, web, etc). I feel like font foundries would print money this way. But for most projects, $300+ for a nice family (that can only be used in a hyper-specific context) is just insane when many free or cheaper alternatives exist.

Used to waste time and money with foundry stuff until Google Fonts caught up. Now I typically source something from there unless it's essential to the design.

  • tallytarik a day ago

    I suspect they are printing more money with the 1-10 megacorps who can afford to pay millions of dollars for per-eyeballs licenses.

  • scripturial 19 hours ago

    I suspect it is probably right that they would find it more profitable to sell 100 copies for $10 than 1 copy for $1000. But I do wonder, it could be that the occasional $10,000 sale to a large company pays more in the long run for less hassle. It’s hard to know. Do any creative agencies release their sales information?

    I’d say there should at least be a small niece for a company to profit off the back of less expensive more reasonably licensed font sales. I don’t know how many lawyers a small company would need to do this though. Would they be sued by Adobe (either for fonts that look similar, or with pointless lawsuits just to wear them out?)

    • asimpletune 17 hours ago

      Part of the value may be in how exclusive the font seems. So in that view 1 sale of $1000 is more valuable because it’s more exclusive. Basically, one potential attribute of fonts is they’re a luxury not a commodity.

jchw a day ago

I don't know if this actually counts as copyright infringement, since typeface shapes are not eligible for copyright in the U.S. (disclaimer: IANAL) so depending on how it was cloned, it might be legal.

The more amusing detail, to me, is whether or not XBAND Rough is related to the XBAND peripheral for video game consoles in the 90s. (Fascinating story, it was an add-on that enabled multiplayer over a phoneline on the SEGA Genesis/MegaDrive and Super Nintendo/Super Famicom.) Seems silly, however there is at least one source that seems to corroborate this idea, crediting the font to Catapult Entertainment, the company behind the XBAND:

https://fontz.ch/browse/designer/catapultentertainmen

Of course, this could've just been someone else guessing; I can't really find any solid sources for the origin of this font.

  • speerer 13 hours ago

    Thanks for emphasising the US perspective, because it matters.

    IAAL outside the US, and I'm aware in UK and EU law copyright can subsist in typefaces, and there are specific provisions relating to them. Since FACT is a UK Org, taking UK law as an example, see ref. []

    I personally find it a good example of aging law. It's quite difficult to reconcile the law as drafted (in 1987) with modern digital font uses. Is a PDF with embedded fonts "material produced by typesetting", or is it an "article specifically designed or adapted for producing material in a particular typeface"? Arguably it could be either.

    I'm not aware of this ever having been considered by a court.

    [] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/part/I/chapter/...

    • jchw 8 hours ago

      > I personally find it a good example of aging law. It's quite difficult to reconcile the law as drafted (in 1987) with modern digital font uses.

      Bizarrely, it seems like the precedent has only gotten stronger since 1987. It was re-affirmed again by the Code of Federal Regulations, § 202.1[1], in 1992. Honestly, I don't fully understand why. I know that U.S. copyright law generally limits the ability to copyright things that do not involve sufficient originality or creativity, but while all typeface outlines are the same basic shapes, there's still plenty of room for creativity.

      I also know that the U.S. is also not entirely alone in generally considering typefaces ineligible for copyright protection; I believe Japan also has a similar position. Maybe eventually, it will shift.

      > IAAL outside the US, and I'm aware in UK and EU law copyright can subsist in typefaces, and there are specific provisions relating to them. Since FACT is a UK Org, taking UK law as an example, see ref.

      Oh, I honestly didn't even realize FACT was a UK organization; I didn't really know a whole lot about them other than the commercial.

      That makes this situation a bit more awkward, as Catapult was, IIRC, based in Cupertino, so Catapult may have not been breaking any U.S. copyright laws, even though their typeface would presumably be illicit by UK law. That said, they were possibly breaking Dutch copyright laws, and I'm not sure what happens there. I suppose that comes down to the nitty gritty of how international copyright treaties work, and I am way out of my depth there.

      [1]: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-37/chapter-II/subchapter-...

  • ndiddy a day ago

    It is related. The font file contains the text "Copyright 1996 Catapult Entertainment, Inc. All rights reserved". I'm not sure where it comes from because the SNES/Genesis/Saturn versions of the service didn't use it. Maybe it comes from the short-lived PC XBAND service?

    • jchw a day ago

      > It is related. The font file contains the text "Copyright 1996 Catapult Entertainment, Inc. All rights reserved".

      Wow! I should've thought to check that.

      > I'm not sure where it comes from because the SNES/Genesis/Saturn versions of the service didn't use it. Maybe it comes from the short-lived PC XBAND service?

      My guess was going to be that it was used in marketing copy, but that doesn't explain how it wound up distributed apparently freely. The idea that it is related to the PC XBAND service seems likely to me, though. The dates line up, based on this press release:

      http://www.gamezero.com/team-0/whats_new/past/xband-pc.html

  • jeroenhd 10 hours ago

    I find it pretty funny that the American legal system explicitly doesn't copyright fonts (which are quite obviously creative works, in my opinion) but still enforces software patents.

mchusma 16 hours ago

Copyright for most (if not all) fonts seems like something that just shouldn’t work. We want things in the public domain, like Shakespeare, and we want derivative works protected. Fonts are tiny differences on public domain work that 90% of people can’t tell. You wouldn’t want Disney to claim every pencil stroke difference on Mikey’s to be subject to different copyright terms, it would become a kind of perpetual copyright strategy. If there are true technical improvements to the way we represent letters, they should be covered by patents, with their shorter terms.

  • lobsterthief 8 hours ago

    How do you encourage people to continue making new typefaces if anyone could use them immediately? FWIW, it does take significant time to design individual typefaces. It’s not just a set of characters: it’s the character in lowercase and uppercase, how letters appear differently when adjacent to certain other letters, punctuation, etc.

    A significant amount of time goes into the process.