Comment by danielvaughn

Comment by danielvaughn 3 days ago

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Having been on both sides of the table, I can offer a few pieces of advice:

1. It’s probably best not to mention negative experiences unless it’s prompted by the interviewer. In some cases it may be super relevant and unavoidable, but aside from that, best to leave it alone.

2. Be clear and unambiguous about what was negative. Don’t be vague. I once had a candidate say something like “yeah and that job didn’t end very nicely…I’ll just leave it at that.” This is not a good thing to say in a job interview.

3. Always tie it to something positive. The story should end with a note about how you grew from the experience.

HorizonXP 3 days ago

This is great advice.

Unfortunately, most people you’re going to encounter don’t have the depth or maturity to be good interviewers.

Some do though, and they know the truth. There is rarely a job in the world where everything is positive. If you can communicate the negatives in a way that I can understand, empathize with, and that demonstrates your ability to handle it with grace, maturity, and humility, I would probably value that more. At the same time, if you’re someone that harbours a grudge over it, like if someone decided against your advice and you’re bitter over it, I’ll take notice too.

Basically, you need to be a team player, but not an automaton. If we wanted that, we have AI now.

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tayo42 3 days ago

Some things are obvious it's a negative situation though. If you're looking for a new job after a year what can you say?

My approach would be along the lines of "if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything" which would probably lead to some vague statement like "it wasn't a good fit"

Software jobs are generally pretty nice jobs. If your leaving one it's not for some positive reason. I feel like people know that.

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  • perpetualpatzer 2 days ago

    Why are you leaving your current job questions are typically inartful checks whether there's "something wrong with you." Refusing to meaningfully answer can come across as, "I'd prefer not to discuss whether there's something wrong with me." Not explicitly damaging, but certainly not confidence building.

    The most useful answers I've heard in the wild were dispassionate, one sentence expressions of why <objective fact> made the existing job irreconcilable with your <valid need>. Done well, that shows the hiring manager you're able to approach conflict constructively, and gives reason to believe the bad fit is unlikely to recur in this role.

    AskAManager[0] also suggests "I’m not actively looking, but I saw this job and was really interested because of X," as a reasonably broad spectrum solution to this problem. (Though after just a year, I as a hiring manager might still worry you are flighty).

    [0] https://www.askamanager.org/2023/02/how-do-i-tell-interviewe...

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  • collingreen 3 days ago

    In an interview setting you should frame negatives as growth. You are doing marketing, not a retrospective or post mortem so put on the LinkedIn-style, vacuously-half-a-person mask. The interviewers know their job isn't perfect so a valuable thing to evaluate is "can this person keep a positive and effective attitude through both good and bad". Obviously different roles have different knobs to turn here for the right message (like a generic ic vs a "wartime manager").

    Some basic examples of describing negative situations:

    I ended up learning a lot there and I'm a better engineer now because of it.

    We had a lot of challenges to overcome and you can never nail all of them but we really managed to produce a lot of great work there within some pretty serious constraints.

    I accomplished a major thing and was learning X on the side so it was a perfect time and opportunity to find an opportunity to learn that more in a real world setting and/with experts.

    I joined that team with the intent to learn X first hand and, while there is always more to learn, I got enough hands-on, production experience with it that I feel like it's firmly in my toolbox.

    We had some unexpected changes/setbacks early on that changed our goals but it ended up being kind of a blessing in disguise since it pushed me out of my comfort zone and gave me an unexpected opportunity to level up my leadership/management/architecture/in-the-weeds skills.

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  • icedchai 2 days ago

    You can keep it vague and blame larger macro issues. "Many people have left the company recently and I am keeping my options open in these times of uncertainty." Allude to instability, layoffs, canceled projects...

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  • maccard 3 days ago

    Using your example, tell a selective truth.

    If you join a team as an IC and it’s a dumpster fire and clearly never going to ship, then “I joined expecting the project to be in a different stage of development. I gave it a shot but I’m looking for something <more mature/earlier in development>”. If your director is a raging ass, then “leadership want to take the product one way and Id rather go another “

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    • hotdogscout 3 days ago

      Why are people at their jobs so fatally allergic to honesty?

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      • maccard 2 days ago

        There’s two reasons to do this - as an interviewer, the way you present yourself to me is the way I expect you’ll present yourself as a representative of the team or company. It’s not good to air dirty laundry publicly, and if you can’t keep it under control when it’s almost an explicit “don’t trash talk your old job” the. There’s basically no hope of it when things are more relaxed.

        Secondly, there’s three sides to every story. Yours, theirs and the truth. If I say “my manager is an asshole so I’m leaving his team”, it’s probable that my manager has a different take on it, maybe “maccard said they wanted to be kept in the loop so I am telling them what happening but they accuse me of changing my mind”.

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      • perpetualpatzer 2 days ago

        Neither of those answers seem at all dishonest. They just skip past the diagnosed cause to focus on the impact.

        Maybe the boss being a raging ass is the root cause of the team moving in the wrong direction. But that may be debatable, and knowing that doesn't answer the interviewer's question. The more relevant piece is that you and the director disagree and that you don't want to waste your time working on something you aren't inspired by.

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  • guenthert 2 days ago

    > Software jobs are generally pretty nice jobs. If your leaving one it's not for some positive reason.

    Eh? It might be nice, but there might be nicer (or at least better paid) opportunities out there.

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pyfon 3 days ago

For 2 what do you say if there is some kind of exit contract like NDA.

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  • xeromal 3 days ago

    Just say it was covered under NDA and I'm can't elaborate. Having a ton of NDAs will hurt you in the interview process except with other companies that are NDA heavy

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    • oarsinsync 2 days ago

      +1 for recognising where you’re going.

      If you’re going somewhere that isn’t NDA heavy, you can speak in general terms without violating the letter of your NDA and it’ll be fine.

      If you’re going somewhere that is NDA heavy and has a culture of corporate secrecy, demonstrating that you will not pierce the veil of your NDA of your previous employer at all, neither in letter nor in spirit, will actually help your prospects.

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  • freedomben 2 days ago

    In those cases, I would still talk about it, but let them know that you can't give certain specifics because of an NDA, but that you will talk about it at a high level.

    For example, if the company was doing something you felt was evil That you can't specifically mention, then just say That you disagreed with an important strategic decision. Explain what you did to handle it in generic terms, such as talking with your manager, writing up a memo, quitting the company, etc

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  • danielvaughn 3 days ago

    For that, I’d lean more heavily on point 3. Totally fine if it’s an NDA, but dig more into what you learned from it. You should be able to describe the situation without adding concrete details that would violate an NDA.

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hotdogscout 3 days ago

>“yeah and that job didn’t end very nicely…I’ll just leave it at that.” This is not a good thing to say in a job interview.

Do you think this is helping you select better people?

I think this is selecting for fakers and cheaters.

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  • danielvaughn 3 days ago

    I don’t see why it would select for fakers or cheaters. I’m totally fine with a job not ending well, but if you leave it as an innuendo like that without explaining, it makes me wonder why it went bad. Makes it sound like you got fired or something, or that you don’t take it seriously.

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    • hotdogscout 2 days ago

      >Makes it sound like you got fired or something, or that you don’t take it seriously.

      My background in academia colors me but the level of office politics some describe in the private sector genuinely sounds like a middle school drama club at times. I've personally witnessed incredibly talented individuals at FAANG companies get the boot for reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with their competence. Think messy personal dynamics, bosses having affairs with coworkers aiming for a position.

      It makes me wonder about this ingrained necessity for pretense and obfuscation in private sector communication. Why the need to constantly play these games as if acknowledging reality is somehow detrimental? In academia, while not devoid of its own issues, the selection process for students at least attempts to prioritize merit and potential. The idea that some of the most brilliant minds I've encountered might be filtered out by arbitrary corporate "standards," while incapable but politically savvy individuals thrive, seems counterproductive.

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      • danielvaughn 2 days ago

        So once again, I’m not advocating for games or denying reality. I’m simply advocating for as much clarity as is feasible.

        Let’s take your example - boss has an affair with a coworker, you speak up about it, then you get the boot and sign an NDA. In that scenario, I’d probably say something like the following:

        “There was an interpersonal incident that was out of my control, and unfortunately I’m not legally allowed to speak about it in detail. What I can say is that I learned how important it is to stand up for what’s right even if it comes at a personal cost.”

        This isn’t playing a game, it’s having empathy for the person sitting across the table from you. They have to make a decision on very limited information, and you’re trying to help them make that decision. If I were to just say “hehe let’s just say that something crazy went down, and I’m out of a job.” Well technically I told the truth, but I certainly didn’t help the interviewer make their assessment.

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        • hotdogscout 2 days ago

          You helped me understand a position I never wrapped my head around before. Thank you!

          I've never made a decision on few points of information, often I know researchers or their output for years before we interact, so it makes sense I don't have to care what language they use as this is a low correlation signal on their output.

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