Comment by TulliusCicero 4 days ago
I'm fine with this, based on the simple principle of Turnabout Is Fair Play.
China already bans practically all the popular US social media apps and similar apps/websites. I'm for free trade, but it ought to be fair trade too, as in, roughly similar/equal policies. If another country bans X imports from your own, it's hardly unfair to respond in kind.
To be clear, it's not just that China won't let Western websites operate uncensored as businesses within China targeting the Chinese market.
It's also that people within China can't access the foreign websites and apps (without using a VPN), because China's Internet firewall blocks that access! That's what makes it an incontrovertible ban!
Even if a company has no interest in operating as a business within China in the first place, China may still block the websites and apps. That's a ban no matter how you slice it.
On the other hand, the reason these bans are in place have very specific origins. Facebook for example refused to provide Chinese authorities with information on domestic terrorists in 2009. Facebook has never pulled that off in a western country.
Meanwhile TikTok has worked very hard to work with authorities in the US for pretty much any of their demands.
I don't support any of these bans but I don't think its fair to equate these.
> On the other hand, the reason these bans are in place have very specific origins.
No, they don't.
You think all these sites refused to provide Chinese authorities with legit information? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...
What exactly do you think Wikipedia did that was so wrong? Or Voice of America -- that's an American propaganda outlet sure, but I can get to Xinhua (Chinese state media) as an American easily enough, so why not the other way?
In any case, refusing to provide info on domestic terrorists could be a legit case for bannning a company from operating within your country...but what does that have to do with banning everyone residing in your country from being able to access the foreign versions of those websites on foreign servers?
The simple reality is that China is extremely ban-happy when it comes to foreign websites and apps, even for companies that have never tried to operate their business from within China.
You've either fallen victim to or are knowingly spreading CCCP propaganda.
China doesn't allow uncensored Chinese social media to operate in China either, so it doesn't really make much sense to say that they should have to allow uncensored American social media in order for Chinese social media companies to operate in the US.
That would be like saying that an Israeli publisher should not be allowed to publish in the US because US publishers cannot publish holocaust denial books in Israel. Or saying that a UAE restaurant should not be allowed to operate in the US because the UAE doesn't Wendy's there to serve the Baconator.
The sensible rule is that X should allow companies from Y to operate in X subject to the same rules that domestic X companies must follow if Y allows X companies to operate in Y if they follow the same rules as domestic Y companies.
Ah, so because China severely represses their own people, that means outright banning foreign web platforms even when they're hosted on foreign soil isn't really a ban for some reason.
The logic of PRC defenders never ceases to amaze.
This is like saying, "well sure they invaded us with their military, but we don't want to be like them, so let's not take any military action in response."
Fundamentally, aggressive action as a response is not equivalent to being the initiator of aggression. Hence: turnabout is fair play. If someone punches you economically, it's entirely fair and reasonable to punch them back. It does not make you "just like them" to defend yourself.
That's a poor analogy. It's more like they censor their citizens so we should censor ours!
No, it's a perfect analogy, you just don't like it. If you actually had a valid point, you'd bother to explain the issue, but you didn't. Telling.
The US isn't censoring it based on content anyway -- in fact, the US government's ability to censor much of anything based on content is severely constrained by the First Amendment -- the US doesn't like the fact that it's controlled by the PRC. But blocking businesses from a rival nation is a trade issue, not a speech issue.
China is a rival and opponent of the US on the geopolitical stage. It's entirely reasonable to respond to trade restrictions with trade restrictions.
> What about the people who want TT?
Well, unlike Chinese nationals, Americans live in a democracy, so they could write to representatives or vote.
But realistically, few care enough for this to sway who they're voting for.
> You can not hold them hostage to Chinese people not having TT or other apps.
You actually can! As long as one nation is being shitty on trade and that starts a trade war, yeah that will hurt some regular people, but the alternative would be to become a total doormat and just let other countries get away with doing whatever they want.
I am genuine interested in details why and how US media didnt abide to China laws?
It requires cooperating with domestic Chinese censorship and providing personal details/actions of users by default to the Chinese government to an extent that Western companies generally aren't okay with.
However, this is all a deflection, because blocking a company from operating as a business within China is not the same thing as banning them by blocking all access to their foreign websites/apps.
If China didn't want Wikipedia operating fully within China as a nonprofit, but you could still access foreign countries'/languages' Wikipedias, I wouldn't necessarily describe Wikipedia as "banned in China". I'd maybe describe it as a partial ban at most.
> tiktok goes out of its way to abide by US laws and still were banned
I'm guessing they decided there was no effective legislation Tiktok couldn't weasel around via loopholes, deception, or some combination of the two.
What legislation are you talking about? They've been extremely transparent about their business through this whole process. They've been asked to do things no other companies are asked to do and they still abide
I'm not a fan of TikTok but its silly not to see the bias here
Indeed, there's much bias here in favor of the PRC for some reason.
The PRC bans tons of US websites and apps all the time, much more stringently than the US is doing, but people keep drawing these false equivalences regardless.
Unlike China's typical banning policy, the US isn't implementing a full website block, which means the app would continue to work for a while, and Americans would still be able to get to the website or get to the app if it's hosted on foreign servers. I see nothing about blocking Americans from getting to the content, only from hosting the content.
In contrast, China outright blocks its residents from even being able to get to Google or Facebook or the New York Times, period, even if they're hosted in another country. It's a full ban.
So the US is implementing a weaker ban with one website even as China has blocked thousands, but people are still freaking out.
> refuse to abide by chinese laws
Honest question: what laws?
Never ever say anything bad about The Glorious Leader, of course.
More misinformation from the PRC defense squad!
They are, in fact, banned. It's not just that they can't operate like a normal business within China, you can't even reach the foreign servers from within China...because they're banned.
If a new social media network opens in Denmark, it might not operate in the US yet -- which means US laws wouldn't even be applicable -- but I could still reach it from the US without needing a VPN, because it wouldn't be banned either. Maybe it wouldn't be useful for me as an American yet, but I could still get to the website, because the US government isn't stopping me.
Many popular US websites are actually banned in China, whether you want to admit it or not.
This is exactly it. If China allowed fully uncensored American social media to operate in China I’d had zero issue letting them do the same in the US.
But the CCP wants to have their cake and eat it too. Fully repressive social media lock downs and censorship for their citizens but exploiting the west’s values of free speech and debate.