Comment by ToucanLoucan

Comment by ToucanLoucan 4 days ago

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Absent any of these conversations is, in my experience, any notion of what exactly China aims to achieve with TikTok that is so sinister? I'm not even arguing, I wouldn't doubt China has plans or another that involve America, specifically that wouldn't be too great for America, I'm just struggling to connect TikTok to any of them, and any discussion seems to take it as granted that the shifty Chinese government is up to something with it.

derbOac 4 days ago

So it's several things. Bear with me because finding news reports that I remember is difficult now because search results are flooded with stuff about the ban so I can't find what I'm looking for.

One concern is a general one that the Chinese government is directing the recommendation algorithms to act as propaganda. So subtly shifting user's opinions in favor of things that suit it and away from things that don't.

https://archive.is/tCVmR

Another is that it is using TikTok to surveil journalists, emigres, and other persons of interest who are using TikTok. My understanding is there are credible reports of journalists being targeted by the Chinese government, where they used TikTok to find their personal details, location, etc.

There's also been increasing reports of the Chinese government operating detention centers in the US and other countries, where they bring kidnapped Chinese nationals. Basically arresting nationals on foreign soil. In some of these cases at least TikTok has been implicated as the method of locating them etc.

https://theweek.com/speedreads/764194/intelligence-officials...

Discussion of this has all been out there over the years, but the way it's been covered has admittedly been weird. Maybe this is yet another sign of a fractured media landscape, but I think some of it has to do with the US not doing a great job of publicizing some things, possibly because it involves intelligence services.

I'm generally very in favor of unfettered freedom of speech, but have mixed feelings about this case. I guess I still side on that, and am skeptical about a ban, but this is getting into different territory and also don't feel strongly about it. I think the effects of foreign (and domestic) propaganda in social networks are very real, and although I generally think censorship is a very bad idea, I'm not sure I can blame a country for wanting an app banned if there's solid information that another country is using it in this way; it seems to be in this gray area of espionage versus free speech which is kind of an unusual territory to be in. Also, I'm fully aware that the US probably does similar things, but two wrongs don't really make a right to me, and if China produced solid evidence of the US doing something similar I wouldn't blame them for banning something either on similar grounds.

To me this all just maybe speaks to the need for a shift to open decentralized social network platforms. I realize that's easier said than done, but there's so many examples in the last few years of problems with control of centralized platforms (by private, government, or private-government combinations) leading to huge problems, either in reality or in appearance (which can sometimes be almost as equally concerning).

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  • ToucanLoucan 4 days ago

    So literally all the same things the US does, but because China's doing it, now it's wrong. Got it.

    I am being glib but I do want it understood that I appreciate the nuance and documentation you put the work into to show. It's just that, literally every one of these I already know about the United States doing so the outrage on it's part feels incredibly, hilariously hypocritical.

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    • quesera 4 days ago

      How can this be surprising?

      If you identify, contemplate, and sometimes activate an attack vector against rivals, how could you possibly be dumb enough to leave yourself exposed to the same attack?

      Also, note that China has blocked this attack vector from the US.

      So how colossally dumb would it be for the US to not reciprocally block this attack vector from China?

      Hypocrisy is irrelevant. Attack vectors are real.

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  • dpkirchner 4 days ago

    If these things are truly happening -- especially the alleged arrests on US soil -- then that should be really easy to demonstrate to the American people. That the government hasn't bothered to prove the allegations is telling.

    Of course, if the allegations were proven, the people would demand more action than merely banning a video app. Action which would have an huge negative impact the economy and would be unpopular among the powerful. So maybe that's why they haven't bothered?

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lenerdenator 4 days ago

Oh, you could probably make some effective arguments that they're using it to influence American thought in a way that's designed to diminish the US as a world power through internal strife.

Israel/Hamas would probably be an example.

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  • spencerflem 4 days ago

    Its clear to anyone that's looking that what's happening in Gaza is a genocide

    Reply View 15 replies
    • Philpax 4 days ago

      For example, here's the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

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    • grumple 4 days ago

      [flagged]

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      • ignoramous 4 days ago

        > No, it really isn't.

        I wonder what you know about Genocide better than experts in Holocaust studies and other genocides themselves.

          William Schabas, author of the 741-page textbook, "Genocide in International Law" - says it's a genocide in Gaza. 

  John Quigley, author of the 300-page book, "The Genocide Convention: An International Law Analysis" - says it's a genocide in Gaza. 

  @martinshawx, author of the books "What is Genocide?" and "War and Genocide" - says it's a genocide.   

  @dirkmoses, author of the 600-page book, "The Problems of Genocide" - says it's a genocide in Gaza. 

  Raz Segal, author of "Genocide in the Carpathians" - says it's a genocide in Gaza. 

  Amos Goldberg, author of books on Holocaust, says it's a genocide in Gaza 

  @bartov_omer, author of several books on Holocaust and genocide, says it's a genocide in Gaza.    
 
  But why to listen to the experts in law and genocide studies? Why to bother to read the extensive human rights reports? 

  Listen to @piersmorgan instead; he has a gut feeling.
        https://x.com/NimerSultany/status/1870761846497583323

        > This is war, this is how it goes.

        Yeah, war is how "I was just following orders" German troops justified killing 12m+ in concentration camps. Goebbels said, "The Jews are responsible for the war. The treatment they receive from us is hardly unjust. They have deserved it all." Don't be like Goebbels.

        > the 2 billion Muslims that hate Jews

        Yeah, well: I know a handful Muslims who married Jews.

        > and all you did was bitch on the internet, I'd be ashamed to know you

        Same.

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  • ToucanLoucan 4 days ago

    I mean, I'm not on TikTok at all and Israel is committing a genocide. China didn't tell me that, the Israeli's killing Palestinians en masse told me that. Because that's what the word "genocide" means.

    It seems to be if the US Government wants not to be associated with a genocide-committing country they should just... do that. TikTok might have the largest share of the pro-Palestine mood as it were, but like... it's on all the platforms. Because again... they're committing a genocide, and filming it.

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    • LargeWu 4 days ago

      I would argue that even though you're not on tiktok, you are being influenced by the narrative that China is pushing. There are numerous genocides happening in the world today. Sudan. China (try talking about THAT one on TikTok...). Why aren't those being treated with equal concern? Because China knows that only the Isreal/Gaza one is a wedge in America, so they push that to sow discord.

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      • spencerflem 4 days ago

        Which one is the US funding, and using UN vetos to continue?

        We're an active participant in, its not a surprise its the one we (USA ppl) care about.

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      • ToucanLoucan 4 days ago

        > Why aren't those being treated with equal concern?

        I mean I can't speak to other people's experience, but as an American, I'm uniquely pissed off with the Israeli one because my tax dollars are paying for it, and because the White House could stop it at a time of their choosing, as they've done before.

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    • grumple 4 days ago

      What makes this a genocide and not every other war where far more people, including more civilians, died? And at higher ratios of the dead? You can find hundreds of videos of Israel targeting militants, Hamas using schools and hospitals as bases, and more.

      Nearly a million died in the Iraq war. In a single battle, Mosul, almost as many were killed as in Gaza, including similar ratios of militants and civilians. In Ukraine, far more have been killed, both combatants and civilians - and Russia clearly targets civilians there, and they started the war (while Hamas started the Gaza war). In Syria, half a million died, mostly civilians. Ditto the Lebanese civil war. Ditto the Yemen-Houthi war.

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      • ToucanLoucan 4 days ago

        This feels so obvious to explain that I can't help but feel like it's condescending, but a conflict is not a genocide, irrespective of it's death toll. If you looked up the definition:

        > the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

        Which is just 100% what Israel is attempting to do to Palestine, and they're not exactly being coy about it.

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kevin_thibedeau 4 days ago

Social disruption. That's plainly clear given that Douyin is prevented from having the destructive content that proliferates on TikTok. Keep your competition mired in anti-inellectualism for a generation and it accelerates the rot.

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MountainMan1312 4 days ago

It's taken for granted that the shifty [any] government is up to something because they always are, 100% of the time. Why would you expect the evil overlords to not be up to something with the big evil brainwashing program that has access to almost everyone on earth?

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  • nozzlegear 4 days ago

    This but unironically.

    Seriously, given all the crazy shit that's been uncovered in the last 20 years — PRISM, Five Eyes, Cambridge Analytica — why would an influence campaign run over one of the world's biggest social networks controlled by the actual, real life authoritarian Big Brother state be the one scenario that crosses the line from plausible to fantasy for you?

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