Comment by grumple

Comment by grumple 4 days ago

What makes this a genocide and not every other war where far more people, including more civilians, died? And at higher ratios of the dead? You can find hundreds of videos of Israel targeting militants, Hamas using schools and hospitals as bases, and more.

Nearly a million died in the Iraq war. In a single battle, Mosul, almost as many were killed as in Gaza, including similar ratios of militants and civilians. In Ukraine, far more have been killed, both combatants and civilians - and Russia clearly targets civilians there, and they started the war (while Hamas started the Gaza war). In Syria, half a million died, mostly civilians. Ditto the Lebanese civil war. Ditto the Yemen-Houthi war.

ToucanLoucan 4 days ago

This feels so obvious to explain that I can't help but feel like it's condescending, but a conflict is not a genocide, irrespective of it's death toll. If you looked up the definition:

> the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

Which is just 100% what Israel is attempting to do to Palestine, and they're not exactly being coy about it.

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grumple 4 days ago

Your assertion is obviously not true. This is why they target militants and post the videos and explanations on the internet. You can find hundreds or thousands of such videos. It’s why they send texts hours before bombing. It’s why they do roof knocks. It’s why they provide safe passage and humanitarian zones. It’s why they drop leaflets. It’s why they still provide electricity, water, and food to Gaza. I read a report about how they asked a Palestinian to alert his neighbors via a phone call and waited for him to tell everyone to get out. These are steps no other nation takes, and it is easy to find experts confirming that. It’s why there are only 45k dead instead of 2 million.
If Israel wanted to maximize casualties, there would not be a Palestinian alive today. What would be their incentive to stop? The far left claims it’s a genocide as it is. What would actually killing them all be, then? Double genocide? You have used the worst term you can to describe something very far from the worst Israel could do.
And then of course, is the obvious contradiction that they just agreed to a ceasefire for their hostages. Just like they did in November 2023. And how they agreed to a ceasefire in Lebanon despite all the cries of them trying to seize the land. Israel wants to be left alone to live; the Palestinians (and the other neighboring Arab nations) want to kill all the Israelis and destroy Israel. The rest of the world wants these positions to meet in the middle, so there we are in the middle ground: perpetual war. Go look at the Hamas and Hezbollah founding charters, or the Houthi flag, or everything Iran says.

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- ToucanLoucan 4 days ago
  
  "You can't be mad at them for killing a lot of Palestinians when they've shown incredible restraint in not killing all of them" is a hell of an argument, I'll give you that. Still genocide though. There's no victim-count aspect to this definition, they are attacking Palestinians, living in Palestine, because they are Palestinian, and they want to settle those areas with Israeli's. We don't need to wait for them to kill a certain percentage of the population to then be able to declare it a genocide.
  And, like even if I take this:
  > I read a report about how they asked a Palestinian to alert his neighbors via a phone call and waited for him to tell everyone to get out.
  at 100% face value, that some militants were in some building and the IDF was about to reduce it to ashes... so they called the guy next door, and asked him to evacuate the building? Which is presumably... full of militants? Cuz that's like the whole thing, that's the whole fuckin point?
  You talk a lot about how nothing I say makes sense but that's just nonsensical on it's face, like... if these attacks are genuinely needed, why in the world would you warn people beforehand? Doesn't that completely defeat the purpose?
  > the Palestinians (and the other neighboring Arab nations) want to kill all the Israelis and destroy Israel.
  I mean they can want that as hard as they want, but Israel has the military and political backing of the West. They're untouchable, as has been demonstrated by them being surrounded by enemies essentially since the state was partitioned off from the others during it's founding, and it's still there.
  
  Reply View | 3 replies
  
  grumple 4 days ago
  
  > because they are Palestinian
  No, this is not why. They are attacking because Gaza invaded Israel on 10/7, killing over 1200, injuring 5000, and kidnapping over 200. Notice how Arab / Palestinian citizens of Israel are not being killed.
  > We don't need to wait for them to kill a certain percentage of the population to then be able to declare it a genocide.
  I think this is a fundamental flaw of the genocide conventions. With this interpretation, you could call a single murder a genocide, if done with the intent of destroying a people (in which case, isn’t even murder of an Israeli by Hamas or other organizations whose intent is to destroy a genocide?). Obviously, this is absurd, and nobody is on TikTok raging about Hamas’ attempted genocide of Israel.
  > You talk a lot about how nothing I say makes sense but that's just nonsensical on it's face, like... if these attacks are genuinely needed, why in the world would you warn people beforehand? Doesn't that completely defeat the purpose?
  Yes, it does. It is in fact this attempt to do less harm that prolongs the war and keeps Hamas alive. To actually destroy Hamas, you would have to kill a lot more civilians. So Israel often settles for destroying weapons caches, tunnels, and structures they operate from.
  
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