Comment by someotherperson

Comment by someotherperson 2 months ago

> Have Israel lay down their arms and focus on peaceful gardening and few Israeli Jews will survive.

That's because the entire notion of Israel as a concept is predicated on it being under constant existential threats.

If Hezbollah goes away, then nothing changes in Lebanon: Lebanese identity isn't based on armed resistance. Israeli identity, however, has nothing else going for it besides armed conflict.

If conflicts were to go away, so would Israel. Israeli Jews would just be absorbed into whatever local culture they're in, just as they were prior to the formation of Israel (and just like they are outside of Israel). The remaining ones would be the ones engaging in armed conflict -- just as the original groups like Irgun and Lehi were.

edanm 2 months ago

What are you even talking about? Israel is a country with a population of 9 million people. Do you think if the conflicts stop, this population would just disappear or something?

Whatever the "Jewish identity" was in 1948, Israel now has more than 70 years of existence, giving it an independent identity from just "Judaism".

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someotherperson 2 months ago

Sure, what is that identity? Is there uniquely Israeli cuisine, dances, anything? What is the Israeli identity outside of an existential threat on Jews?

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- yoavm 2 months ago
  
  My most favorite food in the world is an Israeli dish - you should try it if you haven't already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabich
  We used to do a lot of Israeli Folk Dancing when I was a teenager: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_folk_dance
  What else would you like to know?
  
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  someotherperson 2 months ago
  
  Quoting from your sources:
  > The idea of the sabich sandwich was most likely created in Iraq
  Yeah, it's about as Israeli as chicken schnitzel. It's just a regular Iraqi eggplant sandwich.
  > Israeli folk dances were created as way of helping to create a new Israeli culture in the land of Israel
  At least the developers of that folk dance appreciate the fact that there was (and still is) a distinct lack of any sort of national culture and have to _develop it_. Even still, from your source, these newly developed dances haven't reached any level of mainstream success save for the Horah which is Southern/Eastern European.
  Note the original comment: "Israeli Jews would just be absorbed into whatever local culture they're in, just as they were prior to the formation of Israel."
  
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- edanm 2 months ago
  
  What are you even talking about? Do you think a country of 9 million that's existed for 70 years doesn't have any unique identity?
  There's Israeli writing, Israeli music, Israeli theatre, Israeli dance... some of these are internationally famous. There's Israeli cuisine, a lot of which is based on other cuisines imported from countries that Jews fled from or were kicked out of.
  And of course, there's all flavor of Israeli technology and other innovations, from agriculture to food to, of course, software and high tech.
  What do you think Israelis are doing on a daily basis, sitting around worrying about existential threats on their life?
  
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  someotherperson 2 months ago
  
  > What are you even talking about? Do you think a country of 9 million that's existed for 70 years doesn't have any unique identity?
  Yeah. It has no unique national identity. There's a lot of Jewish culture, sure, but I'm hoping we can distinguish Jewish culture from Israeli culture (i.e, Iran is a Muslim country but Iranian culture isn't a subset of Muslim culture).
  > There's Israeli cuisine, a lot of which is based on other cuisines imported from countries that Jews fled from or were kicked out of
  Agreed. That's the point here.
  > What do you think Israelis are doing on a daily basis, sitting around worrying about existential threats on their life?
  Israel as a nation, yes. You sort of reaffirmed that by adding "countries that Jews fled from or were kicked out of" in your reply. The existential threat quite literally shapes all of Israeli day-to-day culture. The agriculture, tech and everything else is based on that existential threat.
  As I've mentioned elsewhere though, this lack of culture isn't unique to Israel, it's just heavily multiplied due to the population being a collection of diaspora. This might change over the next couple hundred years but it's equally wild to assume that a 70 year old country is somehow going to have anywhere near the same level of culture (and cultural resilience) as undisturbed groups.
  
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yoavm 2 months ago

[flagged]

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someotherperson 2 months ago

An ethno-nationalist state becoming more secular and less extremist? I'm intrigued. Do you believe that the settlements would stop and that Palestinians would be given Israeli citizenship? Would the Palestinians forced out of Israel be allowed to return in this case?
Or is this secular, less extremist, conflict-free Israel predicated on Israel continuing to be majority Jewish and with a Jewish government?
Edit for your edit: no, nothing to do with Jews. South + North Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine, Singapore, the baltic countries (Estonia etc). Various Arab countries too. In Israel's case the population are made of diaspora which multiplies the effect.

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- yoavm 2 months ago
  
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  someotherperson 2 months ago
  
  So in this hypothetical scenario where everything is flowers and sunshine, the secular, peaceful Israel is still an ethnostate with a two-state outcome that keeps its ethnic cleansing-attained Jewish majority.
  It’s wild to me that this is what you consider the best case scenario in a situation where Israel is experiencing complete peace. And then ending it with an unintentional “nur für Deutsche” reference. The Sweden reference is especially apt, given that’s what the Swedish Antisemitic Union also used as a slogan[0]
  > but most of the places Palestinians left during the war they started on Israel 1947
  You really can’t help yourself huh.
  [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Antisemitic_Union
  
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