Surely the crash of the US economy has to be soon
(wilsoniumite.com)504 points by Wilsoniumite 2 days ago
504 points by Wilsoniumite 2 days ago
> It's mostly in forms of treasuries purchased in USD that pay in USD - this means the indebtedness creates a huge amount of dollars abroad that foreigners have to then spend on US services, driving demand.
Strangely enough, this is exactly the opposite of how it works. The dollars abroad tend to stay abroad, as either a more stable alternative to local currencies, or a reserve currency. Likewise, treasuries held abroad tend to stay there as reserves. This is how the US is able to run both a huge debt, and a huge trade deficit. If the dollars were being repatriated, the trade deficit would close, and the influx of money would cause hotter inflation. Same with treasuries, yields would spike as demand fell.
There are lots of second order effects there, good and bad, but, basically, those dollars not coming home has funded America for quite some time.
I, a foreign entity, have sold something to an american and now have 10 dollars and zero treasuries.
I purchase a treasury. I have zero product, zero dollars and one treasury.
At some point in future i have zero product, maybe 12 dollars and zero treasuries. Presumably i now either repeat the cycle or use my winnings to spend on us output.
GP’s version checks out, your assertion about dollars staying abroad doesnt track? What am i misunderstanding - How did these dollars get abroad, how did they repatriate to buy treasuries, how did a treasury become a reserve, how did the dollars still exist abroad after being exchanged for treasuries?
> Presumably i now either repeat the cycle or use my winnings to spend on us output.
What you are missing is that these dollars can be circulated indefinitely in the global economy without ever repatriating, because they are valuable and useful as actual currency. They may never come back to the US.
> I, a foreign entity, have sold something to an american and now have 10 dollars and zero treasuries.
Or you sold something to a non-American entity in a dollar-based market, eg. oil. The dollars do come from America to begin with, but once they get "out there" they work as a medium of exchange for whoever wants to use them for that purpose.
> Presumably i now either repeat the cycle
Most of the time this is exactly (foreign or not) institutions do.
Think about it, if the 10-dollar treasury is due and you got your money back, the US debt will go down by 10 dollars. However, in our reality, the total amount of US debt almost never goes down.
Of course some interest will be used in other ways, like spending on the US goods or staying as cash to provide liquidity. But at the end of the day, the most popular way to spend the money got from due treasuries is... to buy more treasuries.
Because the world trades using US dollars. Country A needs to buy something from Country B. Country A needs to buy/get dollars to buy stuff from Country B. Country B will not accept anything but dollars or gold for its products because it also needs to buy other stuff like oil in dollars from other countries.
It could accept any credible currency if it was connected enough. Euros, yuan, rupees and yen aren't going anywhere for at least 20 years. Each one is a separate system and countries mostly connect to just one, which is USD, but that doesn't have to be the case forever.
India won't accept euros because it's not part of the ECB, not because it doesn't believe in their value. But India has accounts at US banks in dollars.
Banks do this, not countries. Most banks in the world have accounts at US banks to accept dollars with, they don't have accounts at eurozone banks to accept euros with, or Japanese banks to accept yen with. It doesn't matter in everyday practice because it's easy to exchange euros in eurozone banks or yen in yenzone banks with dollars in dollarzone banks. There's plenty of infrastructure for that. It matters in long–term economic trajectories because all those banks are holding US dollars and the US exports inflation to them and they're not holding euros and then ECB can't.
> Strangely enough, this is exactly the opposite of how it works. The dollars abroad tend to stay abroad, as either a more stable alternative to local currencies, or a reserve currency.
I think you have it backwards. The US dollar can be handled as a more stable alternative only if it's actually stable. As soon as the US government starts to deteriorate goodwill and outright be hostile towards the world, not only does the US dolar lose its value as a stable alternative but foreign governments start to be motivated to dump their assets, which further tanks its value. In the past couple of weeks we started seeing countries outright dump their investments in US dolar to derisk their portfolio, and they did it at the tune of billions of dollars. You also started to see political pressure for foreign governments to demand their gold reserves are pulled out of the US, which means this pressure goes way beyond US dollars.
> Should the US become an unfriendly power to the rest of the western world, it will find the demand for its currency plummeting, which I don't want to outline is a big issue.
Right now this is much more of a maybe, possibly, eventually, over a long enough time horizon.
As of the end of 2025, USD still made up 57% of foreign reserves vs 20% for the Euro and 3% for the Chinese renminbi. Nearly all commodities are still priced in USD and about 50% of trade invoicing is done in dollars, closer to 60% if you exclude the Eurozone. USD also makes up about 60% of SWIFT transactions.
So the demand is still there today and de-dollarization is not really a thing in aggregate as of January 2026, despite all of the events of the past year or so.
So if this time is different, I’m not seeing it yet.
The international "rules-based order" is a good idea when most nations play by the rules most of the time, and when the most powerful at least pretend to follow the same rules as everyone else.
A world order based on rules makes it possible to live at a much higher level of abstraction.
Abstractions like rule of law, democracy, government currencies and stock exchanges are intangible and imaginary. They're mostly just figments of collective belief. But these wispy and unreal ideas that everyone believes in make it possible for most people to live longer, healthier and less difficult lives.
The "rules-based order" was always partly mythical, but as long as everyone kept pretending, it mostly continued to function.
But when we devolve from the rules-based order to the old order of pure power and might-makes-right, kings and dictators, when there's no more collective belief that the rules apply to the rich and powerful, then the tower of abstractions collapses, and we're back to the cold, hard, brutal and difficult real world.
People will find out that life in the real world is a lot poorer and more miserable than life at the top of the tower of abstractions, even if your brokerage account appears to double.
I generally agree with your comment except the 'back to the real world' part. This is just the difference between a world with the gains that cooperation give verses a world with just the maximized minimum return that distrust leads to. A trusting world is the real world we have seen for decades. It is a real world we can choose to keep pushing for.
Neither is 'real'. The power of might depends on belief just as much as the power of rules. You need a whole lot of compliance, even when forced by fear and terror, to just keep up a police state. The belief consists of where people think other people assign authority to, at large. But that can be just as brittle as a meme stock if the time is right.
Social reality is always constructed. No single construction is more real than any other.
> Abstractions like rule of law, democracy, government currencies and stock exchanges are intangible and imaginary. They're mostly just figments of collective belief.
> But when we devolve from the rules-based order to the old order of pure power and might-makes-right, kings and dictators, when there's no more collective belief that the rules apply to the rich and powerful, then the tower of abstractions collapses, and we're back to the cold, hard, brutal and difficult real world.
Many have absorbed and believe the argument of the might-makes-right crowd that their vision is 'real' and their enemies' vision is 'imaginary'. Unless people believe in what they seek, they are lost.
There's nothing imaginary about it; that theory is paper thin and doesn't survive simple examination. Obviously, humans are social animals that live in groups, have powerful intellects, and therefore have tremendous ability to cooperate and work together toward greater good; we've done it many, many times. Freedom and democracy have appealed powerfully to people worldwide, in a tremendously wide variety of cultures. That model was created by people who had experienced WWI and WWII; they knew more of your 'reality' than probably you or I ever will, and with that knowledge and experience they created this order.
And the greater good long predates that; religions and similar ethical codes based on the greater good long predate modern democracy and the rules-based order. Rules-based orders predate it. The Gospels in the New Testament are an easy, very familiar example, from 2,000 years ago (and a significant basis of modern freedom and democracy). Similar is true for abstractions like law, government, justice, etc.
We all are biologically the same, essentially, as the best of humanity and the worst - both are in all of us. It's our choice, our moral choice, what we do. That is also a fundamental that long predates the post-war order, democracy, the Englightenment, etc. Inevitability is a cheap tactic long used by those whose ideas are undesireable and don't withstand scrutiny.
Our choice is easier than those who survived WWII, and their predecessors. Our ancestors gave us the tools, the institutions, etc. They had to build them from nothing for a skeptical world.
The US has played by different rules, might makes right, in the western hemisphere for a long time.
Screwing around with Greenland shit, on the other hand, seems riskier.
The rules based order is mostly a fabrication of recent history. Perhaps between the fall of the Soviet Union, China becoming more open, and the general peace and prosperity it seemed like it existed.
Politics between countries has always been around interests. Countries have no interest in giving up their sovereignty. They may pretend to respect these "rules" when it suits them and then ignore them when it doesn't. Everyone is focused on how "bad" the US is but a) the US has always more or less done whatever it wants b) Russia and China (and many others) have never even pretended to play or accept these "rules".
Canada's Carney whines about "international order" when just a few years ago China simply abducted Canadians in response to the supposed "orderly" arrest of the Huawei CFO to be extradited to the US. So Canada basically abducts the CFO of a major Chinese company and China abducts Canadians in retaliation and that's a rules based order to who exactly? And we can put together an endless list of an endless number of countries. So when exactly was there ever a rules based order except as a tool for countries to bully each other and for the poorer dictator led countries to try and get a seat at the table because they can vote in the UN general assembly.
>demand is still there today
Not all demand the same. There are broadly 2 types of USD buyers
1. price insensitive: sovereign banks, who buys for liquidity/storage
2. price sensitive: hedge funds, private buyer who buys returns
Type 1 buyers are bailing out of treasury. Type 1 are marginal buyers, the close auction regardless or rate, this keeps rates low -> debt servicing low. They artificially depress yield to non market rates, without them rate go up because you have more price sensitive buyers who buy for returns. This increases borrowing costs, hence US debt repayment rising massively.
Type 1 buyers, i.e. US allies (and historically even adversaries) soaked up treasuries are now de-dollarizing / buying gold in lieu of _more_ USD. Type 1s underpin the "privilege" part of exorbitant privilege. The more they de-dollarize the more dollars become exorbitant, aka debt like everyone else. Type1, sovereign held 60% of USD to 40% in last 5 years. This large part of why interest tripled and debt servicing went from 350B to 1T in 5 years. Type1s exit to 20% in another 5 years and maybe interest goes to 5%, debt servicing 2T+. It's the difference between 10%/20%/30% debt servicing as % of federal revenue.
This not to mention USD reserve ticking down at 1% per year means meaningful changes in our lifetimes, and velocity may increase with developments like Saudi no longer locking oil to dollar. Less USD as % of global reserve = more network effects of alternate payment = increased potential velocity of USD reserve drop. This doesn't mean other currencies pickup all slack, i.e. central banks seem to be going in gold / commodities with no counter party risk for new storage. The net result is USD will still be around, in large volumes, but the cost/debt to sustain the system will be "normalized" while US budget is historically is built around USD debt being privileged. AKA difference between borrowing money from family vs payday loans.
>Nearly all commodities are still priced in USD
PRICED as in benchmarked in USD, but =/= USD is being spent to settle them. There's a fuckload of commodities where PRC alone buys 30/40/50%+ of global production, and while quoted in USD, increasingly settled in rmb/CIPS, bilateral currencies, BRI infra or other swaps mechanisms that bypasses USD. This one of the largest source of dedollarization - PRC went from single digit % to plurality of cross-border settlements in RMB/non USD. Though this is just very recent leading indicator that USD is functionally circumventable.
There is another type of demand that I rarely see mentioned. Not only does the United States owe trillions of US dollars, other nations do, as well. They hold many trillions worth of loans denominated in US dollars. They must be repaid in US dollars and not in any other currency.
And not just to the United States but to other nations, as well. South Africa owes US dollars to Australia, Australia owes US dollars to Brazil, Brazil owes US dollars to Argentina, etc.
These nations are hungry for every dollar we print. Even if every trading partner dropped the dollar for trade tomorrow, and if everyone who owned Treasuries all sold them at once, there would still be demand for US dollars to repay their loans.
The IMF made them an offer they couldn’t refuse, and spun a sticky web of a debt trap as a result.
Three minute video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_SaG9HVXMQg&pp=ygUQZG9sbGFyIG1...
> USD still made up 57% of foreign reserves
Yes, but that's the lowest it's been since 1994, in percentage terms. In dollar terms it's been largely flat for the last decade:
https://wolfstreet.com/2025/12/26/status-of-the-us-dollar-as...
> So if this time is different, I’m not seeing it yet
Compare those numbers to 5 years ago. Remember, this is the timescale of a country, not a beagle. America has run on the strength of the dollar for decades, and the symptoms of that collapsing are likely to play out over decades.
Sure, and in 1992 it was 46%, and in 2000 it was 71% and in 2013 it was 61%.
USD foreign exchange reserves have definitely declined from their peak, but by “declined” we’re talking about going from “overwhelmingly dominant” to “merely dominant” to potentially in a few years “equal to every other foreign currency reserve in the world combined”, and maybe USD foreign exchange reserves will decline even further beyond that point.
> The looming US debt is also a great question - a lot of economists have argued that since most US debt is good. It's mostly in forms of treasuries purchased in USD that pay in USD - this means the indebtedness creates a huge amount of dollars abroad that foreigners have to then spend on US services, driving demand.
You got it wrong (I'm sure most economists don't get it wrong and you just misread/misquote). USD is the default reserve and settlement medium for many countries. They buy US treasuries mainly to satisfy the demand of USD itself, not to buy goods and services from the US. That's why the US has such a huge trade deficit. The US doesn't point a gunpoint at other countries to force them buy treasuries[0]. It can lend so much money because the other countries want treasuries.
[0]: Ironically the US tends to do the opposite - forcing other countries to buy US goods and close trade gap.
He's not wrong in his conclusion, just not accurate in why. If countries start moving away from depending on the trade imbalance with the US, the demand for USD will dry up. And they are trying to move away from it because of politics, specifically because of US bullying. But more importantly, the US is increasing trade barriers in a naive attempt to reduce that trade imbalance, which is the biggest reason everybody holds so many dollars--they're paid in dollars when exporting to the US, but don't buy enough US imports (individually or collectively) to spend & exchange all those dollars, which is why they park them in treasuries and other US investments. And it won't be long before oil begins receding from the picture (at least relative to total global trade, if not absolute dollars), displaced by renewables. Though oil is odd in that while creating demand for USD to settle transactions even for non-US oil, it's also a significant US export and has the effect of repatriating dollars.
The importance of USD globally was always on borrowed time. Global GDP has exploded in the 21st century, and the size of the US economy relative to the global economy is shrinking, albeit slowly. The US share of global GDP was like 35% in 1985. By 2030 it's projected to be as low as 12%. It doesn't necessarily follow that this would change the dynamic of strong dollar demand supporting US investments and debt, but it makes it much easier for this dynamic to change as countries become increasingly less reliant in relative terms on exporting to the US. In fact, it's kinda idiotic to rock this boat unless/until we're prepared for some serious fiscal belt tightening. As global GDP increases relative to the US, in theory the rest of the world could support profligate US debt in perpetuity.
> the size of the US economy relative to the global economy is shrinking
This is not true, not at all, it dipped as China grew initially, but looking at the past few years this trend had reversed and the US was again growing as a percentage of the global economy, going from a low of about 21% in 2011 to nearly 27% today. It seems certain now that Trump has put a bullet in this growth, but it was hardly inevitable. In 2024 the US was in an incredibly strong position relative to the rest of the world.
> In 2024 the US was in an incredibly strong position relative to the rest of the world.
The GOP did a fantastic job of blaming all the shockwaves from Covid on Biden. Don’t get me wrong, his admin made some pretty poor choices, but he did inherit the Covid economy and basically got blamed for it. Whereas Obama inherited the recession and wasn’t blamed for it in the same way.
They also did a good job of making it look like all of these problems were only happening here and hiding the fact that other countries were actually in far worse shape. Relatively speaking, as bad as it all was, we did better than most economically speaking.
Libya for one.
https://theecologist.org/2016/mar/14/why-qaddafi-had-go-afri...
All the wars which are said to be for resources like oil are actually over the US financial system’s monopoly over access to such commodities as it tends not to be practical to execute complex resource extraction in countries devastated by war.
The dollar is going down in value right now. Thats the plan. It makes foreign goods more expensive and exports more affordable to other countries. Meanwhile it should have less inflationary pressure on domestically produced stuff like housing.
I dont know if this is going to work or collapse. If it does work IMO they still need to reduce the debt - current actions are because we are backed into a corner, so that needs to be corrected.
> Meanwhile it should have less inflationary pressure on domestically produced stuff like housing.
This is pure fantasy. A weak dollar makes it more affordable for foreign capital to buy US assets, yes, including housing. The president himself recently admitted on video that he plans to make house prices rise.
The "Mar a Lago Accord" plan [1], for those curious. The US debt is one major rationale behind the strategy.
It's a dangerous plan that relies on keeping allies happy and re-establishing hegemony via a Plaza Accords / Bretton Woods 2.0 type system.
It's not going to work if you simultaneously piss all of the allies off.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ts5wJ6OfzA by Money & Macro, which is a fantastic economics YouTube channel. Patrick Boyle has also spoken about this in pieces.
Eh, it's not a plan, it's make believe.
It's a flimsy back-filled rationale thrown on top the mercurial (and often sadistic) whims of an American Caligula, so the elite enablers can pretend there's something rational - or even good - about the chaos and destruction they are supporting.
There isn't. It's just chaos and destruction.
De-dollarisation is happening, but slowly. China has decreased its US treasury holdings by about 7% a year over the last five years [1].
It won't happen quickly because no-one would want to tank the market while they're selling.
[1] https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/foreign-treasury-...
> The US economy depends on the country's position of world hegemon
Unfortunately, the data doesn't back this up. The US economy is actually one of the least trade-dependent nations in the world.
27% of GDP is trade-oriented (The value of imports and exports as a function of GDP), while the global average is 63%. The US is so developed, that even if the country was completely cut off from the world and operated as an internal economy it would still remain the world's largest.
That's mostly a result of you using percentages rather than dollars and the US being one of the largest countries. 27% of US GDP is 165% of Germany's GDP and Germany is the third largest economy in the world after the US and China.
Become a hermit kingdom to own the libs.
At a certain point we have to ask: what is the point of politics? Who are we doing all this civilisation stuff for? Is a nation an engine of prosperity to enrich the lives of its people, or a life support system for the Dear Leader?
The US Economy is 53% larger than the next largest, China, in terms of real GDP (Not fake PPP nonsense). 28T vs 18T.
>The US is so developed, that even if the country was completely cut off from the world and operated as an internal economy it would still remain the world's largest.
That's a pretty enormous assumption. The US economy tends to crash into a smouldering ruin on the tiniest fluctuation in the inputs. The notion that you could abolish 27% of the real GDP and everything else just continues is not reality based. The US is barrelling towards a natural debt limit and that alone is going to be utter catastrophe for an economy that is fuelled by an insane amount of debt spending. The fact that some of the cons, like Trump and Graham, are trying to extract as much as they can as quickly as they can is telling enough.
The US economy is a tenuous mirage. Like Americans constantly love showing the fun charts demonstrating that various backwater, poor, Methville states with negligible business or industry have a higher GDP / capita than most developed nations. Sure they do.
Economic crashes are hard to predict. In the end stock markets are a bit irrational. They don't crash just because there are good rational reasons. And then some irrational thing triggers a mass panic when you least expected and the whole thing crashes.
The circumstances and timing (it's been a while) suggest we are probably closer to a crash happening.
From a loan/interest point of view, the dollar de-valuating a bit is actually not a bad thing for the US. It stimulates exports and inflation. And at the same time that reduces the value of the debt (and that is paid in dollars). The downside is that inflation going up usually also means interest going up. And Trump resisting that because he wants to accelerate the economy might not be a good thing.
The big picture here is oil. The world is slowly moving away from oil as the key driver for economies and paying for it in dollars. China is well on its way electrifying large parts of its economy. To the point where it is starting to import less diesel. And they border on Russia with whom they trade in Yen, not dollars. A world that is going to trade less and less oil is going to be less dependent on dollars.
I'm not an economist though. But planning for some kind of crash/correction seems prudent.
> Economic crashes are hard to predict.
Some of them are, some of them aren't. An economic crash is pretty much guaranteed if international relations break down in such a way that international partners believe trading with the US is a liability. Dollar going down won't stimulate exports if the cause for it was an aversion to buying US products in the first place.
Whether or when that will happen, and to which extent, is another story, all we can say is that the momentum created by the current US administration moves us closer to that point. Will they come to their mind before that happen? Will they be able to restore trust? Will the lingering effect from the damage already done subside? These are hard questions.
The next crash will probably be a race for assets or hard assets for the people who can afford it. It means the stock market will reach all time high, gold all time high and land prices skyrocketing as people try to escape from the dollar currency. The US President will still be proud the economy is still good because the stock market is at all time high and the people are rich because their homes are at all time high valuation but the middle class can barely afford food because there are no available jobs that pays good enough.
> 'this time it's different'
I remember reading this a lot in 2000-2001 and 2007-2008
That said, overall I sort of agree with your assessment except for having any optimism that the US changes course.
The current looming problems with the US economy are almost entirely unforced errors of the Trump administration (they could have done basically nothing and taken credit for the Biden soft landing and economic growth) but they aren't going to course correct.
Trump has no ability to admit mistakes even to himself and he's now surrounded by lots of people who stand to enrich themselves from the chaos even as the average American is harmed greatly.
>Trump has no ability to admit mistakes even to himself
Whatever happened to 'TACO'
TACO is not the same as admitting a mistake.
Admitting a mistake involves some amount of learning not to make the same mistake again.
The reason this is important practically speaking can be seen in situations like chaotic tariffs and threatening allies.
The TACO move might allow us to step back from the cliff in these situations but the fact that we keep being on the cliff on a weekly basis means every other world actor has no choice but to make plans to have us committed in the long term, and this is going to cause huge, long term problems for the US economy.
It got replaced with a simpler system of comparing attack rolls to the AC directly.
Oh, wait, that was THAC0...
Still, he'll be gone one day and I am going to be all in on that day. It'll all be hockey-sticks from that moment on.
How much of America’s growth since the 40s is attributable to its hegemony, stability, and the emergence of USD as the reserve currency of the world? And where other developed, stable nations started dropping in population, the US continued growing thanks to immigration and its center as a research Mecca.
All of those are being unwound as we speak, and it’ll take decades to prove to the world that any trade policy and government agreements may be kept longer than 4 years.
Trump, yes. The millions of people that voted for him multiple times despite no shortage of reports and credible allegations that he was a scumbag... Will not.
Trump isn't the problem, he's a symptom.
I wanted to add that since the last threat of Trump in Davos where he didn't even know the difference between Iceland and Greenland and accidentally threatened another sovereign country, almost all social insurances of EU countries have started to liquidate/sell their US bonds and assets.
If that is not a red sign to BlackRock, then I don't know...
They can and they do; that's called dollarization.
It's worth observing that dollars that are never supposed to return to the US don't have the same anti-counterfeiting pressure that dollars spent in the US do. I don't know how much of a market there is in counterfeiting USD for dollarized economies.
This sounds hard to believe. Adding anti-counterfeit messures to the bills that have them ($10s and up?) can't be that expensive compared to the value of the note, why would they make two different versions?
Not to mention, that would break fungibility.
Can you provide a source?
> Can you provide a source?
A source... for what claim? What do you think I'm saying?
If the US debt gets to the point that interest on debt can't be paid, the US will just print enormous sums of money. Debt is in $, not in valued or devalued currency.
Sure, the end result will be a deprecation of the dollar. But the interest will be paid.
So the real downside to debt is not-overly apparent. Look at how much money was printed for COVID payments, and the like? And at other economic downturns? I do wonder, when will the merry-go-round stop?
>> Should the US become an unfriendly power to the rest of the western world, it will find the demand for its currency plummeting, which I don't want to outline is a big issue.
For those who want to return the US to the haydays of manufacturing, the days of cheap steel and people working in mills, a rock-bottom dollar is a necessary first step. To sell widgets, the US dollar needs to be low. And to get workers into low-wage mill jobs the population needs to be hungry.
This time is not different in the sense that at some point crazy valuations get a reality check. But that's not "the crash of the US economy", that's a stock market crash, and those will happen (tell me when - I'd also like to know) and they also tend to crash all around the world.
The US economy has had ups and downs and I'm sure will still have but despite the wishful thinking of Marxists it's still the least worst economy around in perhaps the least worst country. It still attracts talent and money. It still leads in many areas. It's still very productive. There are huge ecosystems and a cultural base. It's still the world's largest economy. Where will the balance tilt? China? India?
Anyways, be careful of what you wish for, if the power shifts to China we are going to have a very different world, and not in a good way. I don't think it's even in China's interest to see a large decline of the US, after all they're a big customer.
> I don't think it's even in China's interest to see a large decline of the US, after all they're a big customer.
Yeah aren’t they just Leninist but using us as a signal of what to make? I thought rough shape of the scheme was you get to build a factory using free loans in bullshit money that buys rice and apartments but can’t leave the country, then use that to get real money you can take elsewhere by making shit Americans want to buy. You can’t trade the bullshit money for real money without the factory step.
> The US economy depends on the country's position of world hegemon
Your premise depends on that being true, and you stated that like it's a fact. It's an unsupported opinion.
The US economy was the world's largest before 1890, without anything remotely resembling the global reserve currency or superpower military.
> I dont think AI even factors in to this.
I think another way to look at the expansion of the capitalist economy is the onboarding of people into entry day jobs and transitions of economies upward..
AI may have relatively little to do with the US' tantrums yet I think it has a lot to do with the end of expansion and a fast contraction of the availability of top jobs as the last economies enter the middle of the funnel can't be good.
> The US economy depends on the country's position of world hegemon
Citation needed? This feels like a retcon. Remember that the U.S. became the biggest economy in the world in 1890: https://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtid=2&.... That was half a century before World War II and the military empire that followed.
The trillion dollars a year pumped into the military support the stock prices of quite a few highly-valued companies. A sudden collapse of hegemony would be bad for "the market", but that seems unlikely unless WW3 actually kicks off instead of a few more rounds of opportunistic snatching and bullying by the big countries, and in that case few people would care about the stock market.
Its standard Republican playbook.
Get in power, enrich themselves, kick the can down the road to Democrats, then blame the Democrats for poor economy.
This is why ironically Trump cancelling elections and installing himself as a 3d term president would actually be good. People need to see that no matter how bad they think things were under Democrats, it can get much much worse. Say goodbye to your house value and 401k plans for retirement, you gonna be a wage slave well into your 60s, but hey, at least we fixed "wokeness"
> if the US continues down the political path it currently seems to be pursuing, 'this time it's different' actually will be
You’ve set no time bound so what you say here is essentially irrefutable. It boils down to “on this path we will eventually have a big bust.” You’re right if it happens in 1 year or 30.
You’ve also not defined the bounds of the path. Paths can weave. So essentially that part of it becomes meaningless because anyone can draw a line that starts with today.
Tech has a long history of boom bust cycles. Some busts are much more mild than others. Some upend the whole economy for protracted periods. In reality no one knows when AI will bust and how bad it will be. Those are the key questions, not whether there will eventually be a tech (or broad) bust. Of course there will be if you’re looking out to infinity days from today.
Most economic commentary is like this including the linked article: so poorly defined as to be low worth as even speculation.
Simple solution; raise taxes. Been saying that will be the outcome eventually as the olds continue to die and the youth feel zero obligation to senile pants shitters and corpses. GenZ fucking hates Boomers and a whole lot of GenX (that insurance CEO? GenX. Epipen price hiking CEO? GenX. Whole lot of tech CEOs of note? Yup, GenX) Generations beyond Z will never experience Boomers and 1900s American life. They won't care about an arbitrary line in the sand. GenX ain't getting any younger, won't have Boomer support.
A reasonable scenario right now; rest of the world intentionally collaborates to isolate US, destabilize US, act as a forcing function for US to reassert internal control by swiftly deflating buying power of useless rich[1]. The world is sick of US CEOs who do little but jiggle values in spreadsheets. Sundar and many others have said CEOs are likely a very easy job to automate away; useless pageantry. There is rapidly growing domestic and overseas will to depose those non-contributors.
Fastest way to stem the collapse of reality for 10s of millions of Americans with a lot of guns too.
[1] Americans buying power has been deflated by 300% since 1980... I am sure it is purely coincidence Boomers have run the world for most of it.
"Soak the rich" laws were passed around a hundred years ago in the US in response to obscene wealth; worked out pretty well for a long time before they got rolled back and we got a new round of oligarchs.
What is different about this time is how much a crash is expected, which is reflected in the run up in the gold price, for one. It’s also reflected in the public discourse about the high probability of a crash - as with this post and many others over the past couple years. 2008 was sudden and unexpected by most. The dot com crash was sudden and unexpected by most. If we crashed today it would have been expected by most and many would make money off the crash.
I’m not sure what the effects of a highly anticipated crash are, but I’d love to discuss what they might be.
It’s priced into gold, which I think reflects negative dollar sentiment. It’s not priced into the VIX, which is implied volatility across the S&P. Suggesting a crash in equities is not priced in.
What if the rise in index funds is a bubble on its own?
It's massive and increasing amounts of money that is not price sensitive and keeps growing. There's an underlying bubble message: "the stock market always bounces back, so keep plowing your money into it even when it's down".
Apparently passive funds are 60% of mutual funds / ETFs now https://www.avantisinvestors.com/avantis-insights/has-passiv...
Even more insidious is that this is in part driven by retail who are not paying attention. It's literally the definition of passive, hands off
So at some point, valuations will become increasingly disconnected from fundamentals. Active players will notice and find some way to take advantage. Passive yields will eaten. But at what point will the scales tip and people decide it's a sham and there are better places to park your money? That's when a huge bubble will collapse.
I don't know. Honestly don't know if that will ever happen because I'm not sure what a better investment for average Joe would be than a passive broad stock market index.
I've been invested largely in US index funds for a while now, and I've definitely thought about this. My conclusion is S&P 500 is too big too fail, everyone with various forms of power in the US (economic, political, etc) are incentivized to keep the music going. Sure it feels unsustainable, but there is no way going active can help me—I don't have enough access to the right people, and even if I did, it's better as a hedge strategy. Someone who has a billion dollars can easily pace a bunch of $10M bets on long-shot hedges that will mint a fortune when the music stops. Theoretically I could do something similar at smaller scale, but the people smart enough to have credible strategies are not talking to me, and even if they did I don't have the expertise to judge the advice (the super rich don't either, but at least AUM volume is some signal of competence).
The S&P 500 can and will crash at some point. It has and it will. That's part of the lifecycle of market psychology. We go through cycles of over valuation and under valuation. It's true there are many forces with interest in keeping the markets up but there have always been and it's always crashed because once the psychology changes there is no amount of intervention that can keep the market up.
If you are invested for the long term then just don't think about it. If you want to diversify a little then go for it - slowly. Also keep in mind your US index fund is full of international companies anyways.
I'm along the same lines of thinking. I got most of my funds in SGOV (I manually did t-bills for a while but too lazy to keep it going).
> there is no way going active can help me—I don't have enough access to the right people
It really comes down to this realization. Without access to what all these billionaires and their companies have access to, I just feel like a pawn with everything to lose.
It absolutely is.
With the rise of ETFs and 401ks people are incentivized (literally) by the US Gov to put their money in the S&P500
And the "instead of picking a needle in the haystack, just buy the whole haystack" only works if there is actual stock picking going on and you get to ride that, but now when there's so much passive investing, it's just everybody buying the haystack, even if there is no needle
Like with the ETFs and 401ks, they will happily buy as much NVDA at its ATHs, it's quite literally massive liquidity feeding orders all the time, coming from retail's monthly paychecks
US stock market index funds will crash when the US stock market crashes. That will require very large sums of capital to decide to move away from US capital markets. To give an idea of how much money would need to move - VTSAX alone is about $2.1 trillion, with hundreds of billions of dollars of shares of each Mag7 stock.
You basically need the world to decide that EMEA/JAP markets are collectively stronger than the US stock market, and to collectively move their capital outside the US to be deployed in EMEA/JAP. Moves away from Mag7 to US value stocks will be captured by the US stock market index funds; moves into commodities will be seen as opportunities to buy the dip before a market rebound. You can view attempts by US private equity to purchase real estate as attempts to hedge against overvaluation in US markets, but if the US has another Great Depression, those real estate purchases won't be able to fetch high rents or prices anyway.
In short, just follow the normal advice, which is not to put all your money into US domestic stocks, but to also purchase foreign stock market index funds, which help to hedge against the risk of the entire US stock market crashing. In the long run, US index funds are still a good investment - US courts still are quite powerful to settle contract disputes, the US does not have capital flight controls, and American business culture is still one of the hardest working, greediest forces on the planet - a Great Depression v2 would not change that.
All assets are correlated. When the stock market inevitably crashes, and it will, we just don't know when, so will other world stock markets. And the cycle will repeat.
Capital is not going to "move away from US capital markets" because those markets tend to over-perform and will likely still over-perform. What companies are you investing in that are not nVidia, Google, Amazon, Meta, Apple, Open-AI, Anthropic etc. etc.?
It's really hard to predict market crashes. I think it makes sense to be more cautious but also that's what could have been said a year or 2 or 5 years ago, in which case you would have missed a lot of potential gains.
> US stock market index funds will crash when the US stock market crashes. That will require very large sums of capital to decide to move away from US capital markets. To give an idea of how much money would need to move - VTSAX alone is about $2.1 trillion, with hundreds of billions of dollars of shares of each Mag7 stock.
I'd like to make a technical note about markets because I see this mistake repeated in the comments. The money doesn't have to move out of the US markets to somewhere else for the stock market to crash. It only requires a destruction of confidence. For a hypothetical example, suppose the S&P 500 closes at 7000 on a Friday, and everyone loses confidence in the S&P 500 over the weekend (for whatever reason). The market can open on Monday 3500 with not a share traded before the open (no money was moved out of the market), and investor portfolio values are now cut in half. Since confidence is broken, nobody buys the dip, and the market closes Monday down to 3000.
It's an extreme example, but it's worth understanding the fundamental underpinnings. The markets are a confidence game. Sometimes we forget because we have good reason to be confident (e.g. in the S&P 500) and so it fades into the background that something like this could even happen, but it's not hard find these sorts of events in history.
Related thought: maybe the rise in passive is a permanent buoy for positive market sentiment
In the past bad news led to jumpiness and people getting out, including retail. Now you have a massive amount of money that keeps going. So if you jump out..you see that so much money continues to plow in, and price starts going back up. So you come back in so you don't miss out. And on we go.
I think it's very possible passive investing is changing the dynamic, where downturns are more muted. It's overall a good thing but again, as I said above, it feels like it's setting up an even bigger ruin down the road
I don't even think it's about active vs. passive index funds.
Even if people were to do active bets on equity, what matters is the amount of money flowing in the asset class, so as long as there's an infinite stream of long investments into equity (due to 401k, etc.), the prices will rise.
You'd need people to actively balance their allocation between asset classes rather than stock X vs Y to counter those equity bubbles, but I don't think it's happening (and equity becomes too big to fail given the link with things like pension in the US).
If equities are "too big to fail" then governments will do everything in their power to ensure prices continue to go up.
If the right price for equities is 30% of their current value, and if achieving that price means the regime will fall in the next election (or sooner due to civil disorder), then the regime will not allow that to happen.
A regime that controls its own currency has nearly unlimited power to prop up whatever asset classes it wants to, from bonds to equities to housing.
Doing that has consequences like inflation which people don't like, and could cause them to vote the bastards out. But the regime could also print even more money for direct deposits into voters' bank accounts before an election.
So it seems like equities have limited downside until there's a regime change.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of why index funds are effective. Being over invested into U.S. equities is a risk if you hold outsized U.S. index funds (esp. if you have a large allocation in the S&P500, you do not own the market portfolio), but there are other risks being invested into foreign equities as a U.S. investor.
I think the almost opposite is the case.
Passive, (especially global) index funds doing so well and outperforming the vast majority of actively managed, general funds () is not a given, but they point to a different problem.
It means that most actively managed funds are still overpriced (fees), don't deliver efficient price discovery, and in some cases destabilize the market by making consistently wrong bets.
That's not the fault of index funds. In fact they make it easier for high performing investors who have deeper insights.
There are plenty of funds that don't compete on just on beating the index, but have other goals.
>>That's when a huge bubble will collapse.
Maybe there will be a "huge bubble" in the future but it doesn't look that huge right now. Forward P/E for S&P500 is about 22. That is 4.5% yearly return even if there is no growth beyond 2026. This is also real growth as earnings raise with inflation so nominal expected return is about 7% even if there is 0 growth beyond 2026.
Meanwhile risk-free rate (basically short term government bonds) is around 3.5% per year right now (nominal). That 7% is quite pessimistic as some "net growth" (growth - costs of generating it) is expected beyond 2026 and you can only get 3.5% "risk-free" I am not sure why people call current valuations crazy or what their expectations for "fair valuations" are. Equity risk premium seems to be still above 4%. Maybe that's on the low side but far away from bubble territory, let alone "a huge bubble".
I don't think that's exactly true of dot com and '08. In both cases the developing bubbles were identified and widely discussed in the years prior to the burst. The surprise in '08 was not that there was a bubble in real estate, but rather that a massive fraction of the financial system was built on leveraging that sector. To paraphrase Buffett, you don't know who's swimming naked until the tide goes out.
There's also the fact that US equities are now consistently best asset class. Used to be all over the map. But with rise of passive investing and global markets, capital flows to the winner. Success begets success.
If something changes and suddenly foreign equities start consistently beating out US then capital would flow accordingly. But the US still has a massive advantage from passive flows propping it up in perpetuity.
International equities out performed US in 2025, e.g., see the chart near the bottom of the article in https://www.cnn.com/2026/01/04/investing/global-stock-market...
Maybe not a particularly astute observation, but what I've seen in 10 years of investing is that the stock market seems to like to do the opposite of what most people expect. There's probably a game theoretic explanation to this, but as you seem to be suggesting, it basically comes down to: if the stock market was easy to predict and everyone could easily anticipate its movement, then everyone would make money, and this isn't really possible. There are big fish trying to take your money. The people selling you stocks or buying stocks from you do so because they think they are making the better move.
IMO we'll see a correction some time after people get used to the crash not coming. Maybe the narrative will shift back to "money printing means it can't crash" for a while, the market will go "risk on" and then we'll get a surprise correction.
> 2008 was sudden and unexpected by most. The dot com crash was sudden and unexpected by most.
In both those events there was clearly a bubble, and although no one could predict exact dates, corrections were expected.
Exactly the situation now. The problem is predicting the top. Example;You might estimate now is a good time to pull your assets out of the markets, but then the markets go up another 10%. Then a 20% correction happens and you attempt to time the bottom but miss it. Best case you buy back in at about the same point you left. With transaction fees and capital gains you’ve lost money anyway.
I did this in 2007, bought some rentals and missed a lot of gains post 2008.
The only thing that crashed yesterday was silver and gold
The dot com crash was absolutely expected - today's "cmon, get it over with! crash!" tone we see in regards to the AI bubble is hilariously reminiscent of the late 90s dot com bubble. It was the era that spawned the famous Economist leader "Crash Dammit!"
" different about this time is how much a crash is expected, which is reflected in the run up in the gold price"
Isn't this an indicator of a coming crash, not a counter point.
Doesn't Gold go up, specifically as people buy it as a hedge against a crash.
Gold fell over 10 percent yesterday and silver almost 20 percent because Trump announced that the economist friendly choice would be nominated for the Fed. A lot of the precious metals market activity was based on fears about US monetary policy not fears of an imminent depression.
> It feels as though all we need is a spark. And yet, many sparks seem to have come and gone. Big market moves, in stocks or yields, that have recovered
Yes, in a five year span we've had three 20% drawdowns in the stock market that have all recovered which is unprecedented. IMO, anyone who thinks we're going to crash and have a lost decade is not looking at the bigger picture. The Federal Reserve exists to allow the government to spend as much as possible by:
- Making sure that as many people are employed as possible for as long as possible (tax base)
- Making sure that prices keep going up and that the government can borrow below the rate of inflation (so they can spend even more and manage the debt)
What this means is that people need to work to keep up, and that asset prices will continue to go up as people try to protect their wealth from inflation. The government also takes a cut from that via capital gains tax. Regardless, there is simply too much "free money" going around for the outlook to be bearish, IMO. I'm investing across my 401(k), Roth IRA, and brokerage accounts as usual with a little more focus on exposure to international funds this year in my retirement accounts.
You should always take bearish outlooks with a grain of salt especially if they don't put their money where their mouth is and show their positions. Bears don't tend to make a lot of money over the long term: https://www.schwab.com/learn/story/does-market-timing-work
You're missing one important feedback loop in this system: That debt is subsidized by foreign institutions, which have been slowly pulling out as they recognize that the US has been consistently consuming beyond their means. Also almost every continent has been working on circumventing the USD as the primary exchange currency in some way or another.
This is reflected in the USD losing value at a higher pace, which means the debt cycle becomes unsustainable.
Hopefully it will gradually managed, but that requires a large amount of political will, tax hikes and budget cuts. Very hard to do fairly and different people have extremely conflicting views on who should get poorer, because that's exactly what cuts and hikes mean.
The current admin is trying to brute force a change, where they keep their cake and eat it too, but they are eroding international trust which just accelerates the issue.
This goes really good with "even a broken clock is right sometimes".
Even if bears are occasionally right, they aren't right often enough to really be a winning strategy IMO. Look at the S&P500 gains for the last 10 years, some years it's down, but most years it's up. 99.99% of people won't be able to sell at the top and buy at the bottom, so you have to just dollar-cost average and invest in the total marke. FI you do that--you're going to be fine because even if the market is down 22% in one year, it's up double digits 3x as often. You have to just invest with a long-term perspective and can't worry about 6/12 month time horizons.
> What this means is that people need to work to keep up, and that asset prices will continue to go up as people try to protect their wealth from inflation.
Poorer people and younger people need to work. People with assets and benefactors can rest easy.
> Here’s the current price of silver.
Not shown on the chart (and which couldn't have been predicted at the time of writing) is today's crash of almost 30% in that price.
Speculative bubbles happen. The narrative of people losing faith in currency made no sense, because that should pump the prices of durable commodities as well, if not instead of precious metals.
I don't see 30%. Maybe 12% from the very recent top, back to wherever it was just a few weeks ago.
https://www.kitco.com/charts/silver
There has been significant recovery in after-hours trading, but check out that "day's range". The low point was around 1:40 PM EST.
>There has been significant recovery in after-hours trading
After hours has been flat. I think what you meant to say is it recovered a tiny bit from it's regular trading hours low. It's still down over 25% on the day.
Once the supreme court decision about Trump went out, I took all of my investments and put into a savings account.
When a dip happens, I simply take 10% of the money, buy the dip, then sell when the price hits pre dip.
So far Ive netted significantly more than any of my peers that actually do investing.
You have explained well how you are determining the point to sell. But how do you determine that "the dip" is now?
Obvious problem - stock market could keep going down. Obvious improvement - stop limit sell orders. Obvious flaw in the story - many common stocks like Google have doubled in the past year.
So if you had a pension mostly in all world indexed funds, you'd switch them over to "boring" investments like cash.
What is different this time? Maybe:
1 Online shopping market in the range of 5 trillions 2 Electricity and energy price raise 3 Impossibility to lower interest rates 4 Tech market also in the range of multi Trillions 5 Global education and power expansion ...
Meaning that a % of all this money flow goes private pockets destroying medium class, which gets poorer.
It is like a memory leak that keeps sucking resources while growing exponentially until the system crashes. The real question for an economist is how much ram has the system and how much the memory has leaked?
This Legendary site is interesting: https://usdebtclock.org/index.html Especially when combined it´s data with AI.
> It feels as though all we need is a spark. And yet, many sparks seem to have come and gone. Big market moves, in stocks or yields, that have recovered. Tariff and invasion threats, protests, you name it, they might move the needle but it always seems to move back. So, perhaps we won? Perhaps we built our markets so stable that they are these days impervious
This is a myopic question only considering the values of securities, gold/silver, etc, which are owned in significance by relatively few.
The working class economy has already crashed. People who have to put in hours to get paid are struggling, and consumer spending is dominated by the top 10%.
The media, ever fixated on the economic welfare of the top 1%, spins a story that if the stock market is doing well, the economy is doing well.
Meanwhile there is an quiet bet that authoritarians will protect interests of capital owners over all else (i.e the bailout OpenAI hinted they might need), while suppressing the primary methods the masses have for expressing their discontent: speech, organizing/demonstrating, strikes, and voting.
you can couch it in tech metaphors but there is a clear path forward and it involves eating a certain class of people
Big problems are solved by years of investment and good decision making.
Unfortunately, going after causes or correcting symptom in any kind of hurry acts as a massive destabilizer at exactly the moment systemic destabilization provides the motive/momentum for taking action.
Hard course corrections at critical pressure, in a complex system, is a value destroying reset.
Companies can do this. Mass layoffs, capitalization sell off, etc. And then recover over time, because the rest of the economy around them is mores stable and the pain gets diluted. Entire countries doing this doesn't work out so well.
But it would appear, that may be the path we are most likely to take.
You don't have to eat them. You just have to erect significant barriers to hoarding wealth, particularly in off shore devices, and you have to create constant pressure to ensure that stored wealth is best re-invested in the economy at large.
These aren't even hard problems. Until you meet someone in Congress. Then it suddenly seems hopeless.
>and you have to create constant pressure to ensure that stored wealth is best re-invested in the economy at large
I have no idea if this is true (I've asked economists-in-training, they say they'll get back to me), but I've read that the huge increases in tax rates on high income during the war was less to generate revenue (tho more revenue was certainly a need - there was also a growing focus on growing the number of people who paid taxes, which prior had been quite small), but more to ensure profits were not realized and instead kept invested in the economy and the war machine.
A kind of practical "hodl" to keep the wartime economy stock with reinvestment - or really to discourage removing money from industrial investment - to benefit the war-time economy.
Would like links to things to learn more about this line of reasoning.
Isn’t hoarded wealth a no-op? It just reduces the supply of whatever they are hoarding.
Would the people benefit from redistributing the things they are hoarding? Corporate stock that pays little to no dividends, mainly? It’s not like they are hoarding wheat. I don’t really get what people think will happen if we redistribute the stored wealth.
All wealth is, is a claim to direct labor and materials, the magnitude of which is relative to the total amount of wealth competing to direct those at present. If some portion of the wealth is locked away, the labor and materials are still being deployed, just the total pool of wealth competing to direct them is smaller than it would be otherwise. Unlocking wealth does not actually bring more stuff into existence.
Now, it could redirect labor and materials used to built yachts or luxury homes into more practical goods. But my impression is that the labor and materials used for those things are minuscule compared to the overall economy, and most of the wealth of the very wealthy is not actually used for those sorts of things.
Is it just me or does this metaphor sound AI generated?
> It is like a memory leak that keeps sucking resources while growing exponentially until the system crashes. The real question for an economist is how much ram has the system and how much the memory has leaked?
From an EUR perspective the s&p500 has flatlined over the past year while the msci Europe is up by almost 30% in eur terms.
Needless to say, as an outsider from the inflation bubble, American stocks are not a good investment.
There is a good reason to believe that us stocks will not outperform in inflation adjusted terms over the next 10 years.
This is true - all the global multinationals that essentially make the US stock market earn a good portion of their revenue in foreign currency, so their revenue and profits will increase.
In addition, they are all cheaper when priced in USD, so their stock will go up regardless.
This is just counting short term effect of currency devaluation. Long term there are also effects around trade balance and jobs.
Also, increasing billionaire wealth and burgeoning (but somewhat circular) market capitalizations of companies will seem like a good economy while real income and wealth for the bottom half of Americans keeps falling. The mainstream business media is a gaslight factory completely ignoring the ever-widening K-shaped economic reality that there's a very good economy for the highest income people and a rapidly declining/terrible economy for everyone else.
I feel like there's some credibility to 'this time it's different'
The US economy depends on the country's position of world hegemon - the US dollar is the world's main reserve currency, the US enforces international order and trade rules via its military strength, it dominates technology and culture through 'US defaultism'.
I dont think AI even factors in to this.
The US economy is priced for global reach - if it manages to lose that through a combination of credible competitors, and loss of goodwill - it's going to be in heaps of trouble.
The looming US debt is also a great question - a lot of economists have argued that since most US debt is good. It's mostly in forms of treasuries purchased in USD that pay in USD - this means the indebtedness creates a huge amount of dollars abroad that foreigners have to then spend on US services, driving demand.
Should the US become an unfriendly power to the rest of the western world, it will find the demand for its currency plummeting, which I don't want to outline is a big issue.
All said, I think if the US continues down the political path it currently seems to be pursuing, 'this time it's different' actually will be.