Comment by tracker1

Comment by tracker1 4 days ago

39 replies

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I came to rely pretty heavily on Docker and WSL(2) in Windows. I was an insiders user for a bit over a decade, and worked with .Net and C# since it was "ASP+" ...

I had setup a dual boot when I swapped my old GTX 1080 for an RX 5700XT, figuring the "open source" drivers would give me a good Linux experience... it didn't. Every other update was a blank/black screen and me without a good remote config to try to recover it. After about 6 months it was actually stable, but I'd since gone ahead and paid too much for an RTX 3080, and gone back to my windows drive...

I still used WSL almost all day, relying mostly on VS Code and a Browser open, terminal commands through WSL remoting in Code and results etc. on the browser.

Then, one day, I clicked the trusty super/win menu and started typing in the name of he installed program I wanted to run... a freaking ad. In the start menu search results. I mean, it was a beta channel of windows, but the fact that anyone thought this was a good idea and it got implemented, I was out.

I rebooted my personal desktop back to Linux... ran all the updates and it's run smoothly since. My current RX 9070XT better still, couldn't be happier. And it does everything I want it to do, and there's enough games in Steam through Proton that I can play what I want, when I want. Even the last half year on Pop Coxmic pre-release versions was overall less painful than a lot of my Windows experiences the past few years. Still not perfect, but at least it's fast and doesn't fail in ways that Windows now seems to regularly.

Whoever is steering Windows development at Microsoft is clearly drunk at the wheel over something that should be the most "done" and polished product on the planet and it just keeps getting worse.

k6hkUZtLUM 4 days ago

I want to chime in here. It's advertisements on my desktop that repels me. There is something deeply personal about ads in my desktop that feels like being violated. This is a computer that I paid for, with software that I pay for, that includes all my most personal files and data. Seeing ads on the OS completely eroded my trust.

Of course, I still use Windows for various things, but I have too much "ick" for it to be the system where I check my email, manage my business, keep my important files, etc.

Windows is really great for lots of things, but I don't trust it.

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otikik 4 days ago

Yeah. The ads in he start menu are a sign that you are no longer the customer, you are the product. Windows has other similar “features”.

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  • blackcatsec 4 days ago

    I do not have ads in my start menu, and no, I didn't "debloat" my PC. This is a base install where I flipped a couple of settings in the start menu options.

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    • tracker1 4 days ago

      It was a test they ran on Insiders channel to see how people reacted to them. It never mated it into GA, or for that matter the entire insiders channels... They'll feature gate things to some insiders users and A/B test them to see how the user response looks. There was a bit of an uproar at the time for those that saw them, including myself... I ditched windows altogether (except my assigned work laptop).

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      • MarkSweep 4 days ago

        I think some form of ads made it into the release channel. I recently did a clean install of Windows 11 25H2 and I could not figure out how to get App Store ads out of the search results in the start menu. That and a game working better on Linux than Windows was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me and I installed Ubuntu.

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      • user3939382 3 days ago

        The OS has been full of ads for years. TV channel BS xbox this and that. You need magical PowerShell incantations w correct permissions etc to remove it. I saw ads in the Ubuntu installer! I’ve retreated back to FreeBSD and OpenSUSE Heaven help us.

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    • thunfischtoast 4 days ago

      How generous of them to allow their paying user to disable the ads. It's only a matter of time until this either becomes some sort of premium feature.

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    • dijit 4 days ago

      You're missing the point entirely.

      The problem isn't that ads can be disabled. The problem is that a paid operating system ships with ads in the first place. Full stop. There's no universe where that's acceptable product design, and the fact that you can disable them (for now, at least) doesn't make it less offensive.

      I don't understand why you're going to bat for a trillion-dollar corporation here. Your settings work now. Great. They won't after the next feature update, this is a well-documented pattern. Windows updates routinely re-enable telemetry, Bing integration, and promotional content that users explicitly disabled. You're not configuring your OS, you're fighting it.

      The TPM2 requirement is pure planned obsolescence. Millions of perfectly good machines binned because Microsoft decided hardware from 2016 is suddenly "insecure"... whilst the actual benefit is DRM enforcement and remote attestation.

      It's a corporate compliance tool, not a security feature.

      The Insiders build being referenced had actual web advertisements in search results. That's where this is headed. If you're comfortable defending that trajectory, carry on flipping those settings.

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      • 3form 4 days ago

        >whilst the actual benefit is DRM enforcement and remote attestation.

        This is not highlighted nearly enough. It's very bad.

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      • blackcatsec 3 days ago

        The articles surrounding the insider builds gaining "ads" are from 2024--now 1.5 years ago. So whatever was implemented is in the OS at this point--particularly items that showed up in the "Beta" channel of Windows. There's nothing new or current surrounding new ad placement on Windows except some Copilot items throughout 2025, if you consider copilot an "ad" and not a useful tool similar to Notepad, or Office.

        The TPM2 requirement (and kind of by extension the IOMMU requirement, which is the one itself that bit most people) has significantly more benefits than "DRM" or "planned obsolescence". For one, did you know that TPM1.2 didn't include SHA2? Would you be okay relying on SHA1 hashing in 2026 to be used for digital signing? Of course you wouldn't. If I told you today to go generate an X.509 certificate with SHA1 you're going to look at me funny. Did you know it also didn't include ECC? Also much more useful in this day and age for cryptographic speed. There are many other features I don't feel like digging into at the moment, but you get the point.

        I would counter that the downstream requirement for the IOMMU (useful for Hypervisor Enforced Code Integrity), in which Windows itself is broken up into "Virtual Trust Levels" (VTL0, VTL1, and I think there are some newer ones now as well); is extremely useful for securing early parts of the platform boot.

        Or did we collectively forget about the early rootkit era of Windows XP from 2005-2010 when running with legacy/MBR boot mechanisms?

        Establishing a trust boundary as early as possible to force possible attackers into userspace as much as possible (where it can be more easily removed and remediated) is significantly important in modern operating system security--and this goes for any platform: MacOS, Windows, Android, iOS, or Linux.

        Apple, Google, and Microsoft have some form of integrity control over their platforms along with dedicated security chips. Short of some exploits, the most common vector to get into Windows' early boot process is to steal or abuse code IHV kernel driver signing certificates; or in some cases, be maliciously issued one from Microsoft (lol, now THAT is indeed a problem, but a tough one).

        This is just part of modern platform security at this point so I don't really see the issue.

        In addition, TPM2 offers significantly more storage and

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        • user3939382 3 days ago

          > Establishing a trust boundary as early as possible to force possible attackers into userspace as much as possible (where it can be more easily removed and remediated) is significantly important in modern operating system security

          I notice you omitted the BSDs and with OpenBSD in particular I’d argue your point is correct for the majority school of thought but not necessarily most correct whatever that means. Correct for a certain set of priorities.

          Modern OS attack surface is an insane nightmare. The concept of securing it at all is.. idk what it is. OpenBSD default install you run ps you get 12 processes. You can reason about the OS. You focus on you boundary. You don’t admit scenarios where your attacker is poking around usedland. That’s game over on these byzantine OSes we have now. Even better NetBSD where the arch is the security. The SELinux idea makes the best with what we have where you need Linux for driver whatever support. So I’m not disagreeing necessarily but adding context. As far as generating certs users are better off with piv yubikey etc for pki so it’s in their hands, literally

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      • jayd16 4 days ago

        You paid for windows 11? They basically give it away to end users.

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      • benjiro 4 days ago

        > The problem is that a paid operating system ships with ads in the first place.

        You never buy a laptop or pre-build? They are often full of ads that are not Microsoft Windows build in but add-on by the OEM.

        Now i agree that Ads in your OS that you paid for, is a big nono. I never understood why Microsoft threats Home and Pro as almost the exact same. Sell Home for cheaper and with Ads, but keep the more expensive Pro clean. Microsoft can do that easily because Windows Server is just that ...

        But on the Linux front, i have never been happy with the desktop experience. Often a lot of small details are missing, if the DE itself not outright crashes (KDE, master in Plasma/Widget crashes!). And so many other desktop feel like they have been made in the 90s (probably are) and never gotten updated.

        And i do not run W11, still on old and very stable W10. There is no reason to upgrade that i see. Did the same with W7, for years after support ended (and by that time W10 was well polished and less buggy).

        The problem is, what does Linux Desktop offer me more, then a few annoyances that i can remove after a fresh install? Often a lot more trouble with the need to use the terminal for things, that are ancient in Windows. That is the problem ... With Apple, you can get insane good M-CPU hardware (yes, mem/storage is insane), for the os/desktop switch.

        I noticed that often the people who switch to Linux, are more likely to send more time into finetuning their OS, tinkering around, etc... aka people with more time on their hands. But when you get a bit older, you simply want something that works and gives you no trouble. I can literally upgrade my PC here from a NVidia to AMD or visa versa, and it will simply work with the correct full performance drivers. Its that convenience that is the draw to keep using (even ifs a older) Windows.

        For now 25 years every few years, i look at upgrading to Linux permanently, install a few distro's and go back. Linus Desktop does not feel like you gain a massive benefit, if that makes sense? Especially not if your like me, who simply rides out Microsoft their bad OS releases. What is the killer features that you say, hey, Linux Desktop is insane good, it has X, Y, Z that Microsoft does not have, its ... That is the issue in my book. Yes, it has no adds but that is like 5 min work on a fresh install, a 2 min job of copy/past a cleanup script to remove the spyware and other crap and your good for year. So again, killer features?

        Often a lot of programs that are less developed or stripped down compared to Windows, let alone way too often 90 style feels programs. You can tell its made by developers often, with no GUI / Graphical developers involved lol

        I said it a 1000 times but Linux Desktop suffers from a lot of distro redoing the same time over and over again. Resulting in this lag ...

        That is my yearly Linux rant hahaha. And yes, i know, W11 is a disaster but i simply wait it out on W10, and see what the future brings when the whole AI hype dies down and Microsoft loses too much customers. I am betting that somebody is going to get scared at MS and we then get a better W12 again.

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    • blackcatsec 4 days ago

      For those that want to remove items, You can quickly disable these options by going into Settings > Personalization > Start and turn off "Show recommendations for tips, shortcuts, new apps, and more".

      It's like a 10 second fix and basically everything is gone.

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      • tracker1 4 days ago

        That's not what I'm referring to... it was a beta test that included actual internet ads in the start menu search results... It was literally a product I was looking at on the previous day.

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      • anon291 4 days ago

        I mean you can also copy my dotfiles onto your linux machine and have a more advanced system than anything windows would provide, and it'll take less than ten seconds, but this is 'fiddling' or somethin.

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jimbokun 4 days ago

It's really hard to maintain a product team where the mandate is just "don't break anything and keep the quality high". Especially something with as big of an installed base as Windows.

The team will look for excuses to build new and exciting stuff and new opportunities to increase revenue. Even if the product is pretty much "done".

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  • cogman10 4 days ago

    I disagree, I think companies mostly just don't want to spend development money on existing "finished" products. That's the smell I'm getting from microsoft.

    There are plenty of easily identifiable issues with performance in windows 11. There should be people in the windows team dedicated to eliminating "jank". MS product owners, on the other hand, are much more interested in getting copilot integrations into every menu. That's an "easy" task which looks good on a scorecard when you complete it.

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  • tracker1 4 days ago

    No, it really shouldn't be... You can reduce headcount a lot, which they did, and concentrate on bugs (including security reports), while working with hardware vendors for if/when new features need to be integrated for better usability.

    If/when you decide to do a redesign, it should be limited to a specific area, or done in such a way that all functionality gets moved to its' new UI/UX in a specified timeframe and released when done. Not, oh, here's a new right click menu that you now have an extra click 1/3 of the time for the old menu that has what you are actually looking for because the old extension interface was broken.

    Want a real exercise in fun ... just for fun, because I know it's not as useful on a laptop, but was fun on desktops... get a screensaver working in windows that runs for an hour or so before going to sleep... just try it... that's a fun exercise in frustration... oh, it's still in there, but every third update will disable it all again. I get it... but you know what, I want my matrix screensaver to run when I'm only away for a few minutes or over lunch.

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  • jayd16 4 days ago

    The mandate seams to be "squeeze everything for a subscription fee and keep the quality... actually just the first thing".

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