stackghost 5 days ago

My thoughts exactly. We're probably witnessing the beginning of the end of linux users being able to run their own kernels. Soon:

- your bank won't let you log in from an "insecure" device.

- you won't be able to play videos on an "insecure" device.

- you won't be able to play video games on an "insecure" device.

And so on, and so forth.

  • dijit 5 days ago

    Unfortunately the parent commenter is completely right.

    The attestation portion of those systems is happening on locked down devices, and if you gain ownership of the devices they no longer attest themselves.

    This is the curse of the duopoly of iOS and Android.

    BankID in Sweden will only run with one of these devices, they used to offer a card system but getting one seems to be impossible these days. So you're really stuck with a mobile device as your primary means of identification for banking and such.

    There's a reason that general purpose computers are locked to 720p on Netflix and Disney+; yet AppleTV's are not.

    • yxhuvud 5 days ago

      Afaik bankid will actually run as long as you can install play store (IE the device don't need Google certificate), which isn't great but a little bit better than what it could have been.

      • gcr 5 days ago

        That can't be right. My onyx boox note air 2 eInk tablet lets me install the google play store by registering myself as an AOSP developer and enrolling my device's serial number or GSF identifier with Google using some Google Form that some android team somewhere's automated by now. The device has no hardware security features from what I can tell. There's no way this platform would pass muster with any bank.

    • LtWorf 5 days ago

      I just received by mail a card to replace my soon expiring one… (not a debt card, the one to do internet banking and so on).

      However the problem is that A LOT of things only work with the mobile app.

    • ahepp 5 days ago

      as you say, a lot of this stuff is already happening. Won’t it be good to have a FOSS attestation stack that breaks the iOS/android duopoly?

      • AnthonyMouse 5 days ago

        Banks don't use these things because they provide any real security. They use them because the platform company calls it a "security feature" and banks add "security features" to their checklists.

        The way you defeat things like that is through political maneuvering and guile rather than submission to their artificial narrative. Publish your own papers and documentation that recommends apps not support any device with that feature or require it to be off because it allows malware to use the feature to evade malware scans, etc. Or point out that it prevents devices with known vulnerabilities from being updated to third party firmware with the patch because the OEM stopped issuing patches but the more secure third party firmware can't sign an attestation, i.e. the device that can do the attestation is vulnerable and the device that can't is patched.

        The way you break the duopoly is by getting open platforms that refuse to support it to have enough market share that they can't ignore it. And you have to solve that problem before they would bother supporting your system even if you did implement the treachery. Meanwhile implementing it makes your network effect smaller because then it only applies to the devices and configurations authorized to support it instead of every device that would permissionlessly and independently support ordinary open protocols with published specifications and no gatekeepers.

      • severino 5 days ago

        Well, it depends. I can now do banking from my desktop computer because there is no way our banks can attest that we're running our browsers in their approved hardware+software stack. Of course they can already disable banking from the browser but if they choose to keep it open but require attestation in your browser when it becomes possible, I don't think it's a good thing.

      • faust201 5 days ago

        It would but how and who to run it? Ideally some one like Linux Foundation sits on the White house meetings or EU meetings. But they don't. Govts don't understand. I was once participating in a Youth meeting with MEPs - most of them have only iPhones. Most (not all) lawmakers live on a different planet.

        Also IIRC, linux foundation etc are not interested in doing such standardisations.

  • seba_dos1 5 days ago

    This is already the world we live in when it comes to the most popular personal computing devices running Linux out there.

    • stefan_ 5 days ago

      This is already the world you live in just running some recent Ubuntu. Try writing, building and loading a kernel module!

      Of course its all nonsense make believe, the "trust root" is literally a Microsoft signed stub. For this dummy implementation you can't modify your own kernel anymore.

      • plagiarist 5 days ago

        And you cannot remove it on every motherboard because some of the firmware blobs are signed. You cannot remove their keys and leave only your own.

  • anonym29 4 days ago

    Torrenting is becoming more popular again. The alternative to being allowed to pay to watch on an "insecure" device isn't switching to an attested device, it's to stop paying for the content at all. Games industry, same thing (or just play the good older games, the new ones suck anyway).

    Finances, just pay everything by cheque or physical pennies. Fight back. Starve the tyrants to death where you can, force the tyrants to incur additional costs and inefficiencies where you can't.

  • JasonADrury 5 days ago

    Is the joke here that all of those things have already been happening for a while now?

blibble 5 days ago

that's a silver lining

the anti-user attestation will at least be full of security holes, and likely won't work at all

  • sam_lowry_ 5 days ago

    Dunno about the others but Pottering has proven himself to deliver software against the grain.

    • dijit 5 days ago

      You think?

      It took us nearly a decade and a half to unfuck the pulseaudio situation and finally arrive at a simple solution (pipewire).

      SystemD has a lot more people refining it down but a clean (under the hood) implementation probably won't be witnessed in my lifetime.

      • PaulDavisThe1st 5 days ago

        anyone who thinks that pipewire - pipewire! - is "a simple solution" understands nothing about pipewire.

        don't get me wrong, i use pipewire all day every day, and wrote one of the APIs (JACK) that it implements (pretty well, too!).

        but pipewire is an order of magnitude more complex than pulseaudio.

      • blibble 5 days ago

        yeah, the fix for pulseaudio was to throw it away entirely

        for systemd, I don't think I have a single linux system that boots/reboots reliably 100% of the time these days

      • mariusor 5 days ago

        It's baffling to me that anyone can imagine pipewire has been created from scratch without any lessons learned from pulseaudio and the previous issues the audio stack on linux had, and solved, over the years. Nothing is happening in a clean room bubble, every new project stands on the shoulders of giants...

    • nacozarina 5 days ago

      LP is the Thomas Midgley Jr of Computer Science.

    • wang_li 5 days ago

      I thought he had proven that he leaves before the project is complete and functioning according to all the promises made.

    • tonoto 4 days ago

      agent Smith, the one that don't care at all about conforming to POSIX?

      "In fact, the way I see things the Linux API has been taking the role of the POSIX API and Linux is the focal point of all Free Software development. Due to that I can only recommend developers to try to hack with only Linux in mind and experience the freedom and the opportunities this offers you. So, get yourself a copy of The Linux Programming Interface, ignore everything it says about POSIX compatibility and hack away your amazing Linux software. It's quite relieving!" -- https://archive.fosdem.org/2011/interview/lennart-poettering...

    • mikkupikku 5 days ago

      Poettering gas a track record of recognizing good ideas from Apple, then implementing them poorly. He also has a track record of closing bug reports for plain and simple bugs in his software to protect his own ego, and this kind of mentality isn't a great basis for security sensitive software.

      Audio server for linux: Great idea! Pulseaudio: Genuinely a terrible implementation of it, Pipewire is a drop in replacement that actually works.

      Launchd but for Linux: Great idea! SystemD: generally works now at least, but packed with insane defaults and every time this is brought up with the devs they say its the distro packagers jobs to wipe SystemD's ass and clean up the mess before users see it.

      Security bug in SystemD when the user has a digit in their username: Lennart closes the bug and says that SystemD is perfect, the distros erred by permitting such usernames. Insane ego-driven response.

      • plagiarist 5 days ago

        He really will just close a ticket because he disagrees with how Linux works. I read about systemd sysusers and thought they would be neat for running containerized services. But Poettering doesn't like the /etc/subuid files and refuses to work with them.

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