Comment by comte7092

Comment by comte7092 3 hours ago

28 replies

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn.

Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only briefly is there mention of the configurability.

People (not necessarily the author, but likely many commentators that make similar complains about the frameworks price) will lament how manufacturers don’t have upgradable ram, etc and then turn around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable laptop, or the price.

I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience, but that’s is just something I have to accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture places so little value on it though.

Rergardless, what I feel like we see here (along with a lack of scale from a small company) is the core tradeoffs that we’d have to make to get back repairability, etc. framework certainly isn’t above criticism, but if you don’t care about these things then why look at this machine? A large established brand is always going to offer a a better value on the things you care about.

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Numerlor 2 hours ago

Value wise when trying to spec out my personal Lenovo laptop on framework, it'd never get anywhere close to being worth it even if I completely made use of the hardware after a future upgrade.

Framework makes sense if you're going in on the sustainability idea, but other than that it's really just an expensive laptop that's not compelling against its competitors

  • arghwhat 6 minutes ago

    The pricing when I looked was similar. I went with a Lenovo last time because the Framework 16 hadn't quite matured, but premium anything is never going to make financial sense.

    Buying and repairing a framework is never going to be cheaper than going through consumable trash laptops, and buying top of the line laptops and trying to use them longer is never going to be cheaper or better than buying medium grade laptops and upgrading more often.

    What you're paying for right now is the customization capabilities and the ideology. Upgrading and customizing a single platform with a community, vs. a fixed one-off design that'll be lost next time you upgrade.

    If Framework isn't already compelling to you at this time, then you're not the target audience. They might drop in price, but they'll never win a race to the bottom.

  • casenmgreen 2 hours ago

    I can swap out my mobo for a RISC-V mobo, or ARM.

    Get away from Intel and management engine.

    • kec 25 minutes ago

      Or you could just buy a MacBook Air for like $900 (or one of the windows snapdragon machines, but it you care about avoiding Intel I’m assuming you want Linux and doubt the support is as good as asahi on Macs)

      • Pet_Ant a minute ago

        I mean, this could literally be the last laptop shell, screen, keyboard and power adapter you ever buy. That's a fantastic sustainability story. Not to mention that if it dies you are never at risk of having to replace the whole thing unless it melts in a fire.

      • E39M5S62 21 minutes ago

        Snapdragon support is decent to great these days, and importantly it's all in the mainline kernel tree.

        Edit: though it should be said that what I think is good might be a far cry from you think is good. I did use a Thinkpad X13s as my primary work machine for 6 months, though.

    • adolph 5 minutes ago

      > I can swap out my mobo for a RISC-V mobo, or ARM.

      You can't do that with the 16, only the 13 [0] and you can't upgrade ram on it. Which is kind of the problem in a nutshell. Over time fewer user modifications make sense due to the context of the whole computer as an integrated system.

      0. https://frame.work/products/deep-computing-risc-v-mainboard

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wmf 2 hours ago

Dave2D made the argument that you could buy another laptop for the same price as upgrading the Framework 16. This makes it hard to accept the quality tradeoffs.

  • aunty_helen 2 hours ago

    I think what’s lost here is when the framework project was launched, all the companies were moving to SoC designs and reliability was unknown.

    Replacing a stick of ram is still much cheaper than buying a whole new MacBook, but these systems seem to be reliable enough that ram failures aren’t front of mind. Same for SSDs.

    • wmf 2 hours ago

      Gaming laptops tend to have replaceable RAM and SSD so the advantage of Framework 16 is much less.

    • piskov an hour ago

      > replacing a stick of ram

      How often does your RAM fail you?

      • Octoth0rpe 38 minutes ago

        The use case is to replace an existing working stick with a higher capacity stick, not just for repairs.

  • fruitworks 2 hours ago

    you get another mainboard to use as a sever or resell

DetectDefect 2 hours ago

> an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine

The market assigns almost no value to these tenets, nor do the consumers participating in it.

  • Frotag 2 hours ago

    I guess repair-ability only matters if you expect the laptop to break. And there's no benchmarks for durability. But yeah I agree that upgrade-ability is of dubious value for most people.

aunty_helen 2 hours ago

I think you’ve brought a really interesting point up. A lot of these laptops are the way they are because miniaturisation. Framework trades that off. But for some, this tradeoff isn’t in the right spot.

The challenge for framework is to build a modern laptop, that doesn’t have these tradeoffs. Which is an impossible challenge, hence why all of the other manufacturers ditched it. (That and repairability being bad for business)

So, a framework laptop, that’s as light, thin and fast as a mbp, while being a comparable price and being able to pull tabs to swap ram. The better their engineering, the closer they get to this and the more customers they can please.

GenerWork 2 hours ago

>Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only briefly is there mention of the configurability.

I'm convinced that a lot of people have Dunning-Kruger effect when it comes to niche products like Framework. The fact that Framework exists at all is amazing, and like you said, it's frustrating to see the lack of understanding of the core value proposition of Framework both in this post and HN.

aydyn 2 hours ago

The author seems to be very aware of the benefit of upgradability, but thats not an excuse for the shoddy experience. Some of the issues the author mentions are just absurd. Sharp edges, panels that creak? Come on.

loeg 2 hours ago

Is 2000 eur even a lot of money? I think that gets you into better than dogshit laptop territory but I'd hesitate to claim that a 2000 eur purchase every >5 years puts you in "luxury" territory.

  • YorickPeterse an hour ago

    For a good laptop it wouldn't be too bad, i.e. my X1 Carbon cost me about the same back in 2019 if I remember correctly. But it's ultimately about the price/quality trade-off, and this is where I feel Framework has some work to do, at least with the 16 inch model.

  • kace91 2 hours ago

    >Is 2000 eur even a lot of money?

    It’s my entire professional life’s computer investment - a MacBook Pro in 2013 and an m1 MacBook on 2020.

api 2 hours ago

I feel like Framework wasn’t for this customer. They would have been happier with a Lenovo or something or a Mac.

  • mPogrzeb 2 hours ago

    I agree, although I do not think even Lenovo would be enough.