Comment by riotnrrd

Comment by riotnrrd 2 days ago

41 replies

I used to work in perception for autonomous aerial vehicles and horizontal wires were the hardest common object to avoid. Traditional stereo won't help you localize them -- wires are thin so even mere detection can be hard, and one portion of a wire looks much like another so feature matching fails resulting in bad or no depth estimates -- and LIDAR sacrifices resolution for weight and power consumption (which both have to be optimizied for drones). It's been years since I've worked in this field, and Amazon has many smart people thinking about it but I'm not surprised it's still a difficult problem.

cesarb 2 days ago

> Traditional stereo won't help you localize them [...] and LIDAR sacrifices resolution for weight and power consumption

I wonder if a more mechanical solution wouldn't help:

Whiskers, like on a cat. A long enough set of thin lightweight whiskers could touch the wire before the propellers do, giving time for the drone to stop and change course. Essentially, giving the drone a sense of touch.

  • ianferrel 2 days ago

    Thin lightweight whiskers are going to be challenging to manage on a propeller-driven vehicle. They'll get blown all over the place. Having them extend out past the propellers will likely get them tangled in the propellers.

    • ssl-3 2 days ago

      Sure, they'll move around in the prop wash.

      But that's fine, isn't it? If they're intended to detect fixed objects, then noticing that one or more of them have ceased to be blown around in that way may be a good way to detect unanticipated contact with a fixed object: When the signal becomes less noisy, then maybe something is in the way.

      And the whiskers don't have to be all floppy like a wet noodle. I myself am thinking that something rigid or semi-rigid might be good. Perhaps something akin to armature wire, or thin spring steel. Maybe even literal bamboo chopsticks.

      They can also be constrained so that they don't get sent into the props.

      My little brain thinks that the drone-end of the whiskers can be attached to potentiometers, with light return springs to bring them back towards center, like the mechanism used by an analog stick on a PS3 controller.

      • ianferrel a day ago

        Rigid whiskers have other sets of problems. Below someone mentioned that rigid whiskers will break when they contact objects. If the whisker is as rigid as the drone itself, it plausibly breaks the same cables that the drone breaks. You also have the problem that in the event of drone failure, you now have a spike-covered drone falling out of the sky. What kind of damage does a bamboo chopstick or thin piece of steel do when it hits someone or something at ground level at drone-falling velocity with the mass of a drone behind it?

        It's quite possible that these problems are solvable and can be engineered around, that there's a whisker-based solution, but I don't see it. It's certainly not an obviously workable solution.

      • thaumasiotes 2 days ago

        > And the whiskers don't have to be all floppy like a wet noodle. I myself am thinking that something rigid or semi-rigid might be good.

        I don't think you're right about this. The concept of the whiskers is to notice when you've collided with something. Real whiskers aren't rigid because colliding with something when you're rigid means snapping. (Ever stub your toe?)

        Think of the rigidity of the whiskers as being traded off against your maximum movement speed.

  • drjasonharrison 21 hours ago

    A cage around the drone, there are kids toys like this, and also commercial products for inspection. Prevents contact with other objects, contact can be sensed and reacted to. https://www.flyability.com/elios-3

    Doesn't protect against everything, like Spanish Moss which dangles from trees, but that is a lot bigger than a long thin wire.

  • cromka 2 days ago

    Would help avoid damage with other misrecognized or ignired objects, too.

vpShane 2 days ago

Ah yeah I came up with the solution to that one. It's 'don't fly drones over our heads' approach. Also the 'upgrade the fragile infrastructure so a light breeze doesn't take out millions of people's power.'

  • venturecruelty 2 days ago

    Sorry, not profitable enough, not a "team player". Please enjoy these weekly 1:1s with your manager and HR.

parliament32 2 days ago

> horizontal wires were the hardest common object to avoid... Traditional stereo won't help you localize them

This makes a lot of sense. I wonder if it wouldn't be better for autonomous vision to use three cameras instead of two for better spatial reasoning.. maybe in a triangle pattern?

  • riotnrrd 2 days ago

    We experimented with a rig with more cameras on it (four, in a square) but the baseline of the cameras on the drones we were using could be measured in centimeters, so the vertical stereo pairs didn't provide much better results. Further, more cameras means more power, more weight, and much more expensive on-board processing (which also will require more power).

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bri3d 2 days ago

Definitely tough. mmWave radar is useful for this use case; I know Amazon were testing it on earlier drones but I'm not sure if they still use it.

londons_explore 2 days ago

Cables don't move often. Why not simply have a map of all of them?

Google sell maps of things like this from street view data.

  • octoberfranklin 2 days ago

    Any one particular cable might not move often, but if a telco owns N bucket trucks it's a safe bet that about N cables move every workday.

    Telcos are notoriously secretive about the location of their fiber. They even got most state legislatures to exempt it from state-level FOIA laws.

    • c22 a day ago

      If you have a map of all utility poles you could probably just avoid every straight line between any of them within some reasonable distance of eachother.

      • euroderf 19 hours ago

        OpenPoleMap is achievable. Just don't expect local governments to subsidise the mapping of obstacles to drones of the likes of Amazon.

      • octoberfranklin 10 hours ago

        Most "utility pole maps" only show poles with power lines on them.

        A ton of telco cables are on telco-only poles (basically just a really straight tree trunk shoved in the ground, no cross-arms at all).

      • drjasonharrison 21 hours ago

        it's an approximation of dangerous areas, catenary curves are more accurate than straight lines but you don't know the length of the cable so you don't know the droop height.

  • riotnrrd 2 days ago

    All cables? Everywhere in the entire country? Accurate to the centimeter level and updated on the hour?

    Edit: This was flippant, but the real issues are: any map you get will be incomplete and obsolete almost immediately and cables move and sway in the breeze.

    • lazide 2 days ago

      It doesn’t need to be at the cm level. Giving them a 10m berth should be fine.

      • anamexis 2 days ago

        A 10m berth from wires would exclude a substantial proportion of houses in my city.

thinkcontext 2 days ago

> Traditional stereo won't help you localize them

Wouldn't making a quick circuit around the house before landing allow wires to be observed from multiple angles be enough?

  • drjasonharrison 21 hours ago

    Yes but tradeoffs with delivery speed, and thin wires are still hard to detect with limits on vision processing.

rkagerer 2 days ago

Helicopter pilots have trouble with them as well.

wat10000 2 days ago

It’s really hard for people too. The advice I got for landing in a field was to assume that every pole you saw had wires going to every other pole. Which is reasonable enough for that scenario, but not workable for continual low altitude flying in a built up area.

PunchyHamster 2 days ago

It's very simple: don't fly there

there are very little aerial lines few meters highers and ones that exist can be probably spotted from satellite images and planned around.

Especially if delivery area is limited, they could just map them out of the routes.