Comment by thrownawaysz
Comment by thrownawaysz 11 hours ago
China only have 8 Nobel winners compared to the 425 from the US is crazy.
Comment by thrownawaysz 11 hours ago
China only have 8 Nobel winners compared to the 425 from the US is crazy.
> 9 if you count people...
13 according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_Nobel_laureate..., including peace prize laureates Liu Xiaobo (2010) and the 14th Dalai Lama (1989).
> But, since the Nobel was established, China has been invaded...
> The US has been invaded zero times...
The number of external invasions is not a strong indicator of the number of Nobel Prizes, if you compare all countries, beyond just China or the US.
And as you mentioned, the Cultural Revolution greatly reduces the chance of Chinese Nobel, so internal events can take a large role. And Mao led to more deaths—not to mention destruction to science and culture—than external invasions in the last century combined.
> The civil wars also brought to power brutal dictatorships...
The dictatorship arguably hasn't ended, by taking another less brutal form. And to be precise, CCP brought the civil wars and its consequences, not the civil wars brought dictatorships.
The War of 1812... when the British burned down the White House and the Capitol surely has to count as an "invasion".
The research competition is basically a funding competition nowadays. In the 20th century, China had far less research funding for universities compared to U.S.. That's due to two facts: 1. China was poor back then. 2. China had barely no high-tech industries which can provide additional financial support to labs and cultivate talents.
Therefore, people got high-level education who want to pursue a research career would have less chance to get a job in China (at least mainland) and had to go to U.S., EU or Japan to utilize their knowledge.
In fact, until now, U.S. still offers the highest the research funding to its universities. That's why there're so many Chinese students in U.S. schools.
Yang got out before Mao. China managed to birth and educate several world-class mathematicians and scientists in the short span between the beginning of Westernized education and Mao's take over... and then it stopped for several decades. The lucky ones managed to get out.
Strange to think that revolutions, unrest, the Sino-Japanese war, and the civil war all provided better conditions for fostering top talent than Mao's China did.
India has similar number of laureates and nowhere had the similar kind of social upheaval or authoritarian regime like China or the soviet union had.
I think it is bit more nuanced than just Mao, pre 1935 you could do ground breaking research in almost any field with limited to no funding at all. Since the war you need increasingly large amount of budgets which western universities with full government support enjoy, ans it was not possible to compete for India or China or even the Soviet Union to keep up.
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The cultural changes you allude to, certainly were a medium term negative factor, but the pre 1950 setup were hardly sustainable or efficient. In pre Mao China or similarly British India (or even till recently) it was not a meritocracy there was a privileged elite who had all the opportunity and few shined if they were also talented.
Today China is one of the most meritocratic economies after all - despite all the authoritarian flaws, we are only seeing positive growth in foundational scientific research and rapidly in contrast with the rising anti-science sentiment we are seeing in so many parts of the western and western influenced world.
The socio-cultural reset was important and necessary for both China and India to progress, the methods of the Mao era are questionable both for their cruelty and also for how efficient and effective they were it was just bad all around however the need of the reset came from a valid place I think.
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There is whole dimension of bias which does disadvantage particularly Chinese research output today. Don't get me wrong I am not saying there is conscious bias against Chinese researchers. The bias is because despite the esteem the Nobel prize is not a global one.
The committee sit in Scandinavian countries closely working with Norway government. The members are predominately affiliated to western universities and fluent in English or other European languages and read Nature / Science type of western journals.
This always put Soviet researches before and now Chinese and Indian(to a lesser degree) at a disadvantage compared to their western peers.
The committee are not equipped to judge the research output of the whole world, till recently this was not a problem, because western research post WW-II was the majority of the world output, but that is increasingly not true and in a multi-polar world.
> the methods of the Mao era are questionable both for their cruelty and also for how efficient and effective they were
Also for killing tens of millions of people, which not only is murder of each person but also those millions of people - and then their families - never benefit.
Absolutely, I am in no way saying Mao era methods were justified, warranted or even effective.
They were misguided, ineffective, and directly or indirectly killed people in the millions.
I am just pointing out that, the atrocities of the era doesn't justify seeing pre 1960s or pre1950s years of China with rose tinted glasses as a better era, it wasn't unless you were in the elite.
It would be no different than seeing the 1970s or any earlier generation in U.S. history as a better era. Only a very small in-group perhaps had it good. Everyone else be it black, women, indigenous, various immigrants, religious, neuro or sexually diverse have only seen net improvements in last 300 years.
Another point about Soviet scientists: it was very often a career-ending move to accept a Nobel prize unless you were a truly untouchable cult of personality and/or direct friend of those in power. See Andrey Sakharov, who first invented the soviet hydrogen bomb and later dedicated himself to non-proliferation which earned him a Nobel Peace prize. He was however barred from traveling to Oslo to accept in 1975, having already been blacklisted from classified work since 1968.
I wonder to what extent that lead to the curbing of consideration of those behind the iron curtain.
It's also quite interesting to compare to the Soviet Union, which managed around 30 Nobel laureates in spite of also going through a communist revolution and some genocides like China did.
9 if you count people from the Republic of China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_cou...).
But, since the Nobel was established, China has been invaded by Germany, Japan, Russia, Britain (largely India), France, the United States, Italy, Austria-Hungary, and Japan again, and had a civil war which hasn't technically ended (plus the end of the Boxer Rebellion), a revolution, and the worst famine in human history. But probably the worst event for its Nobel chances was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution. The civil wars also brought to power brutal dictatorships, including in the so-called Republic of China.
The US has been invaded zero times and had zero civil wars during that period, and in the US, the Cultural Revolution and dictatorship are just starting. Consequently many people who might have been Chinese, German, Japanese, Russian, etc., during the period in question were instead born in the US. And note that, on the page I linked above, 6 Nobel laureates from the US were actually born in China: Charles K. Kao, Daniel C. Tsui, Edmond H. Fischer, Yang, Tsung-Dao Lee, and Walter H. Brattain (!).