Comment by scott_w

Comment by scott_w 12 hours ago

43 replies

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From the UK and listening to people who don't have things like passports, it sounds like it'll make proving your right to work much easier for people, too. I've spoken to friends who have foreign relatives and they've also pointed out the problem the UK has which is:

1. To open a bank account you need an address

2. To rent somewhere (get an address), you need a bank account

3. See above

The same happens for children opening their first bank account. They get round this usually by having a parent vouch for you, however, this isn't much use to children with estranged/dead/abusive parents.

A system that is mandatory, acts as sufficient ID in all cases (proof of ID, proof of address, etc.) and is free for the recipient has the potential to make otherwise excluded peoples' lives easier.

pjc50 12 hours ago

> I've spoken to friends who have foreign relatives and they've also pointed out the problem the UK has which is

Lots of countries have this circularity, including Continental ones with ID systems, and I think it's an intentional anti-immigrant measure.

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  • buildfocus 12 hours ago

    For Spain at least, most banks have foreigner accounts you can open with a passport, and convert into a normal account once you have local id later. It's a mildly unusual setup (and a bit confusing when you're new) but it's pretty widely available and it's not a significant blocker. There's plenty of other challenges and structural disadvantages as an immigrant, but this one at least isn't too bad.

    If anything, there's really a big advantage to it for the banks - most locals already have banking, immigrants are the one market where you can get new customers without having to push them past the effort/laziness of switching from their existing setup.

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    • mytailorisrich 11 hours ago

      It is not a problem to open a bank account with a foreign passport in the UK, and most banks have accounts for those who've just moved to the UK. Hundreds of thousands of people move to the UK every year...

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      • scott_w 11 hours ago

        However, you also need proof of address to open a bank account. Which someone moving to the UK won’t have yet. This limits their options of bank accounts.

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  • scott_w 12 hours ago

    Absolutely, it’s a major problem. I would think this system needs to hand out ID cards to everyone who needs one (student, work visa, alongside NI number, etc.) to break that loop.

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    • pjc50 12 hours ago

      For a while the UK had the stupid situation where there was a high-security biometric identity system, but only for immigrants, and one of the things you did as part of the process of becoming a citizen was the requirement to hand back or destroy the ID.

      (this of course tells us where all the ID pressure is coming from: voters want an identity system that can be weaponized against immigrants and The Other.)

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terminalshort 11 hours ago

In the US you can just tell the bank an address and they will type it in the computer. They make zero effort to verify it. They will even print a piece of paper with that new address on it that you can take down to the DMV and get an ID with that address printed on it. Is this a lot different in the UK?

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  • scott_w 10 hours ago

    That's not the case in the UK. You need a utility bill (gas, electric, council tax, bank statement) or an existing bank customer to verify your identity. It's only in the past 5-10 years that electronic statements have been accepted. Meeting customers in person is becoming less common, so I worry for, say, women whose husbands handle all the bills.

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  • phatfish 11 hours ago

    As the parent said, you need proof of address to open a current account that can be used for day-to-day payments.

    A savings account you don't need proof of address but I think most will ask for your NI (social security) number. Some will send snail mail to the address you provide to enable withdrawals.

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  • MagnumOpus 9 hours ago

    Some do, some don't. Traditional banks will ask for a proof of address (and only accept a council tax bill, utility bill or rental contract). Some new online banks like Revolut will allow you to get around that step.

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  • Muromec 9 hours ago

    At the end of the day, somebody has to take your word for it and type it into the computer. The only questions is who has access to the records of which computer to cross-verify them.

    The fact that the system is not 100% consistent 100% of the time is a feature, not a bug.

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agedclock 11 hours ago

The same happened in Spain when I used to live there. I ended up just paying everything cash in hand until I could get a bank account.

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mytailorisrich 12 hours ago

The issues you mention have nothing to do with having an ID card so a Digital ID won't change anything.

Regarding passports, really at this point people who don't have one don't want one.

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  • scott_w 11 hours ago

    Except they will? We require multiple proofs because there’s no central place a bank or company, etc, can go to prove that you live in the UK. The excessive requirements to provide multiple proofs to your employer of your right to work are explicitly because there’s no single proof of your right to work in the UK.

    If you don’t have a passport, for instance, it’s much harder for a UK citizen to prove their right to work in the UK, for which your employer is liable if they get it wrong.

    So please, tell me again how having a clear proof of identity tied to your right to work, and other things, will “not change anything.”

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    • agedclock 11 hours ago

      Sorry you are totally misrepresenting how difficult it is. Here is the checklist:

      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/68b6b7e7536d6...

      > If you don’t have a passport, for instance, it’s much harder for a UK citizen to prove their right to work in the UK, for which your employer is liable if they get it wrong.

      No it isn't. You need a Birth Certificate and a previous paycheck and something that has your NI number on it, and usually something to prove your address e.g. Utility Bill.

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    • mytailorisrich 11 hours ago

      If you have an address, you have a proof of address. Digital IDs won't magically prove your address, and I don't think there plan is to include addresses. But if Dìgital IDs include address then you'll have to prove your address to the Digital ID first exactly like you prove your address now: with documents.

      Regarding right to work (you are changing topic): if you are a citizen you can show your passport, if you don't have a passport because you don't want one you can show your birth certificate. If you are not a citizen you show your passport and provide a share code. It is simple and there are no "excessive requirements".

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      • pjc50 11 hours ago

        > If you have an address, you have a proof of address

        No! This is another one of those things that ends up being a serious problem for a few people, because the current proof of address standard is "utility bill".

        > you are changing topic

        This seems to be particularly bad in the "digital ID" discussion, almost every speaker including official sources seems to mean something slightly different by this phrase.

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