Comment by klabb3

Comment by klabb3 2 days ago

5 replies

> 4 : Second Order Selves (e.g. cat). Where access consciousness begins. Theory of mind. Self-awareness. Inner narrative. Anticipating the reactions of predator or prey, or navigating a social hierarchy.

Cats and dogs most definitely anticipate actions of other animals and navigate (and establish) social hierarchy. Is this even a trait of consciousness?

I’ve spent much time thinking of qualitative differences between human and close animals. I do think ”narrative” is probably one such construct. Narratives come early (seemingly before language). This lays the foundation of sequential step-by-step thinking. Basically it lets you have intermediate virtual (in-mind) steps supporting next steps, whether that’s through writing, oral communication or episodic memory.

An animal can 100% recall and associate memories, such as mentioning the name of a playmate to a dog (=tail wagging). However, it seems like they can neither remember nor project ”what happens next” and continue to build on it. Is it a degree of ability or a fundamental qualitative difference? Not sure.

In either case, we should be careful overfitting human traits into definition of consciousness, particularly language. Besides, many humans have non-verbal thoughts and we are no less conscious during those times.

jijijijij 2 days ago

There is this popular video of a crow repeatedly riding down a snow covered roof on a piece of plastic, basically snowboarding. Seemingly just for fun/play.

For me, it's hard to imagine how such behavior could be expressed without the pure conscious experience of abstract joy and anticipation thereof. It's not the sort of play, which may prepare a young animal for the specific challenges of their species (e.g. hunting, or fighting). I don't think you could snowboard on a piece of bark or something. Maybe ice, but not repeatedly by dragging it up the hill again. It's an activity greatly inspired by man-made, light and smooth materials, novelties considering evolutionary timescales. May even be inspired by observing humans...

I think it's all there, but the question about degree of ability vs. qualitative difference may be moot. I mean, trivially there is a continuous evolutionary lineage of "feature progression", unless we would expect our extend of consciousness being down to "a single gene". But it's also moot, because evolutionary specialization may as well be as fundamental a difference as the existence of a whole new organ. E.g. the energy economics of a bird are restricted by gravity. We wouldn't see central nervous systems without the evolutionary legacy of predation -> movement -> directionality -> sensory concentration at the front. And we simply cannot relate to solitary animals (who just don't care about love and friendship)... Abilities are somewhat locked-in by niche and physics constraints.

I think the fundamental difference between humans and animals, is the degree of freedom we progressively gained over the environment, life, death and reproduction. Of course we are governed by the wider idea of evolution like all matter, but in the sense of classical theory we don't really have a specific niche, except "doing whatever with our big, expensive brain". I mean, we're at a point where we play meta-evolution in the laboratory. This freedom may have brought extended universality into cognition. Energy economics, omnivorous diet, bipedal walking, hands with freely movable thumbs, language, useful lifespan, ... I think the sum of all these make the difference. In some way, I think we are like we are, exactly because we are like that. Getting here wasn't guided by plans and abstractions.

If it's a concert of all the things in our past and present, we may never find a simpler line between us and the crow, yet we are fundamentally different.

MoonGhost a day ago

> An animal can 100% recall and associate memories, such as mentioning the name of a playmate to a dog (=tail wagging). However, it seems like they can neither remember nor project ”what happens next” and continue to build on it.

There are videos of dogs stopping kids from falling in the water. They definitely can project 'what happens next'. I.e. what kid is doing, why, and what's going to happen. More over dog brings the toy kid wanted from the water. In other words animals are not as primitive and stupid as some want them to be to fit in their theories. BTW, parrots often are really talking, not just reproducing random words.

pengstrom a day ago

I've never gotten the impression an animal was aware it could change me. Sure it'd make its wants clear until it got what it wanted or got bored, but that's a very primitive form of conduct. The cat clearly knows I can get it more foods between meals. The communication is limited, but I've never seen him come up with a better argument than that he really really wants more food. Dogs are stranger and clearly has a concept of social structure that cats don't. Both from their background as pack animals and deliberate domestication for assisting humans in work.

NL807 a day ago

These stages are part of a spectrum. There is no hard boundaries.

ben_w 2 days ago

> Is this even a trait of consciousness?

There's 40 or so different definitions of the word, so it depends which one you're using when you ask the question.

For me, and not just when it comes to machine minds, the meaning I find most interesting is qualia — unfortunately, I have no particular reason to think this hierarchy helps with that, because there might be a good evolutionary reason for us to have a subjective experience rather than mere unfeeling circuits of impulse and response, it's (1) not clear why this may have been selected for, and evolution does do things at random and only select for/against when they actually matter, and (2) it's not clear when in our evolution this may have happened, and (3) it's not clear how to test for it.