Comment by jasperry

Comment by jasperry 5 days ago

9 replies

So if I understand the claim of this correctly (I'm a spectator of logic research and haven't tried to follow the proofs), there is a constructive version of AoC that is obviously true, but it's not the same as Zermelo's axiom because that one is extensional. Zermelo's axiom can be formulated in constructive mathematics but gives you things you don't want (like excluded middle.)

Is this close to a correct statement of the paper's result? Is all this agreed on today? Have there been any significant refinements?

ncfavier 5 days ago

That sounds about correct. The naïve interpretation of AC that interprets ∃ as Σ and ∀ as Π amounts to the trivial fact that Π distributes over Σ, which has little to do with any choice principle. If you instead interpret it in setoids, as Martin-Löf does, then the function you get should be extensional with respect to the relevant setoid structures, which is where the power of the axiom comes from.

The modern view on this is homotopy type theory, where types themselves are intrinsically seen as ∞-groupoids (a higher analogue of setoids) and ∃ is interpreted as a propositionally truncated Σ-type (see chapter 3 of the HoTT book). In this setting the axiom of choice says that for any set X, (∀ (x : X). ∥ P x ∥) → ∥ ∀ (x : X). P x ∥ (see section 3.8).

Note that from the perspective of homotopy type theory, Zermelo's axiom of choice is too strong: it is equivalent to global choice (for all types A, ∥ A ∥ → A), which is inconsistent with univalence.

  • creata 5 days ago

    Off-topic: What's the state of homotopy type theory as an alternative foundation for mathematics? Has it been used to simplify any proofs or prove anything new?

    • zozbot234 5 days ago

      Kevin Buzzard (a standard mathematician who has direct expertise in the sorts of things HoTT is supposed to help with) argues that we simply don't know yet. See the references I previously mentioned in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44151283

      • ncfavier 4 days ago

        There arguably has been a failure of communication between type theorists and "traditional" mathematicians, but Buzzard unfortunately has a bit of a history of vocally spreading less-than-accurate information about type theory. I'd suggest not focusing too much on this one person's opinions and engaging with the subject for yourself if it interests you.

        It's also worth keeping in mind that mathematicians traditionally haven't cared too much about foundations, and are not necessarily the best people to ask about them; see Hilbert, Bourbaki and the scorning of logic¹. Among people who are interested in foundations (logicians, category theorists, computer scientists, philosophers, ...), there is a pretty clear consensus that HoTT is a major step forward; but of course it's not the kind of "step forward" with immediate, observable results. As David Madore puts it, you wouldn't cut the roots of an apple tree just because no apples grow there.

        [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20210506180228if_/https://www.dp...

        • zozbot234 4 days ago

          > but of course it's not the kind of "step forward" with immediate, observable results.

          Nice, it looks like you agree with Kevin Buzzard's claim about HoTT in the presentation I linked above. While mathematicians as a whole have historically not cared all that much about the practicality of formal foundations, it's worth noting that Kevin Buzzard has quite some expertise in dealing with the Grothendieck-style fuzzy, informal reasoning about equality that happens to be a key motivation behind HoTT itself and the univalence approach. What he seems to claim on the topic is that HoTT makes it a tiny bit easier to phrase a formal treatment of these issues, but you still have to do all the really hard work of proving that everything "respects" the equalities you claim it respects. The fact that you can then "transport" mathematical objects, proofs etc. along equalities is nifty but is also the kind of thing that would be glossed over to begin with in any informal treatment, so there's no real gain wrt. that.

      • YetAnotherNick 4 days ago

        In podcasts or open conversation he is far more critical of HoTT.