Comment by ryandrake

Comment by ryandrake 2 days ago

89 replies

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> - Lack of a mobile app. Minimalist design is great, but I still want an app to manage charging and be alerted to any vehicle issues.

Noooooooooo! No apps, please! Finally a car not tethered to and dependent on your phone, and we already have our first request to app-ify it!

EDIT: Ughhh, according to the video that another user posted, it looks like there's an app, and yes, "updates" go through it :(

> - Lack of good charge management and battery conditioning. Either that, or a cheap and easy to replace battery pack. I'd really like both!

Yes to a simple battery system!

> - Comparable hauling and towing capacity to the 1998 Ford Ranger. Those numbers aren't exactly impressive, but I do use the truck as a truck, and I occasionally need the hauling capacity (weight).

Yes!

> - Bucket seats. I need a bench seat so I can take my wife and dog. Think weekend glamping trips. Picture 8 shows a bucket seat. It doesn't look like that would work.

Yes, definitely. It being a 2 seater is kind of a deal breaker for families. You really want a bench seat to at least stick a small child between the driver and passenger. Back in the day, we'd stuff 3 kids between two adults, but these days the Safety People would have a heart attack just thinking about that.

The article mentions an SUV upgrade kit that will bolt onto the back of the truck. Ugh, OK I guess. Sad that that's the way it will probably have to go.

1: https://youtu.be/cq1qEjwSYkw

hylaride 2 days ago

> Yes, definitely. It being a 2 seater is kind of a deal breaker for families.

What you need is not a pickup truck. Catering to families means expensive bells and whistles, like entertainment systems, etc.

> Back in the day, we'd stuff 3 kids between two adults, but these days the Safety People would have a heart attack just thinking about that.

Rightfully so. Back in the day we did so many things we shouldn't have, and survivorship bias makes us default to thinking it was ok. As kids, we used to go barrelling down dirt roads in the back of pickups or played in the backs of station wagons. There's a reason automobile deaths have gone down.

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  • RandomBacon 2 days ago

    > Catering to families means expensive bells and whistles, like entertainment systems, etc.

    It absolutely does NOT mean those things.

    Cars didn't have entertainment systems for nearly a century and families did just fine.

    <Get off my lawn>

    My entertainment system was the window. Observe the world, not just whatever AI-generated garbage some algorithm pushes to a small screen 8-10 inches away from your eyes.

    </Get off my lawn>

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    • ethbr1 2 days ago

      And aside from a window, you know what's better than a car infotainment system?

      A physical holder for a personal pad device.

      The amount of not-invented-here, duplicate functionality that car companies execute poorly, when buyers already have devices that do that well, is ridiculous.

      The biggest benefit of aligning manufacturing costs for profit should be jettisoning the "post-sale" revenue streams that drive complicated built-in tech for current cars.

      And also, you-know, 100% A+ on getting back to "customize your own car, because it's cheap and supported"!

      Owners being afraid of doing what they want with their devices/vehicles has to stop.

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      • FredPret 2 days ago

        > The amount of not-invented-here, duplicate functionality that car companies execute poorly, when buyers already have devices that do that well, is ridiculous.

        Like when GM invented their own computer to put into their cars instead of just buying one off the shelf decades ago

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      • looofooo0 2 days ago

        Lol, yes we just throw a phone and a Tablet with headphones to the kids.

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    • avn2109 2 days ago

      Yes! By far the biggest feature here is "no infotainment" which leads directly to "hard controls for HVAC," that alone is a killer feature! They should double down on that concept and make the truck work perfectly with no apps at all and no OtA updates too.

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      • palata 2 days ago

        No OTA updates would be a killer.

        What is the need for OTA updates for an EV, once you remove the autopilot and touch screen? Genuinely interested, I would guess there is none, right?

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    • hylaride 2 days ago

      > It absolutely does NOT mean those things.

      I don't personally disagree with you, but today it pretty much does.

      Anyways, my point is that this is designed as a utilitarian, cheap truck that covers the use case that most pickup trucks are actually utilitarian for, like local farm or light duty construction work. It's got a short range, no entertainment for long drives, etc. The article doesn't even say if it has AC (Slate's site seems to have images that allude to it having it).

      The OP wants something for families, which exists and costs more because most families want more. They want good, cheap, and available when you can only have two. Even with gas/diesel powered trucks, there's a huge difference between the utilitarian ones construction workers and farmers buy and beat up and the expensive "luxury" quad-cabs that families now buy because minivans are too uncool.

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      • taylodl 2 days ago

        If you consider a fur baby a family! :)

        I want something much more utilitarian than what is being pitched to today's families. If you want a Quad Cab, Infotainment systems, and yadda, yadda, yadda - the market already has options. Lots of them.

        If you want a cheap, light duty truck similar to what a Chevy S10 or a Ford Ranger used to be, then you're pretty much SOL.

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    • crazygringo 2 days ago

      > My entertainment system was the window. Observe the world...

      The world is pretty freaking boring when it's just pavement and the 5,000th time you've passed the same strip mall, gas station, and McDonald's. The same dirty snowbanks on either side of the same gray asphalt under the interminably gray winter sky.

      Maybe you lived in a place of wonderful natural beauty, or a vibrant urban street culture. A lot of people don't.

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      • hollerith a day ago

        I concede that the way much of the US looks from car windows might be bad for people's mental health, but I doubt any of the badness is prevented by playing music or listening to podcasts in the car.

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      • robocat 2 days ago

        Some interesting people find your examples interesting: perhaps native to their personality.

        However I strongly believe we can cultivate fascination with the droll.

        A gray worldview might possibly say more about you.

        Is a gray grain of sand interesting? Blaming a local world for being boring seems overly negative.

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      • myself248 2 days ago

        Boredom is not fatal. Bring it on.

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      • reaperducer 2 days ago

        The world is pretty freaking boring when it's just pavement and the 5,000th time you've passed the same strip mall, gas station, and McDonald's. The same dirty snowbanks on either side of the same gray asphalt under the interminably gray winter sky.

        And yet, somehow the children survived and thrived.

        They learned to make up games, to entertain themselves, and to -- perish the thought -- talk to other human beings in their own family! /shudder/

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    • hermitcrab 2 days ago

      >Cars didn't have entertainment systems for nearly a century and families did just fine.

      ARE WE THERE YET? ... ARE WE THERE YET? ... ARE WE THERE YET?

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    • kebokyo 2 days ago

      I respect the “old person yelling at clouds” disclaimer lmao.

      Honestly, I got bummed when I found out this was an electric vehicle, I wish there wasn’t a chance for my vehicle to get bricked through an over-the-air update, and I personally would like to have a basic stereo with an aux input just so I can listen to FM stations or Spotify while I haul a bunch of DIY materials around without having to install my own speakers.

      My friend keeps telling me to get a truck for my next vehicle, and while this truck doesn’t make the cut for me, hopefully future trucks made either by Slate Auto or other manufacturers inspired by them will add juuuust the right amount of creature comforts to win me over.

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    • tekla 2 days ago

      Kids will return to imagining Sonic running along the car

      Reply View 3 replies
      • parpfish 2 days ago

        you mean "finger-man running on the side of the road and jumping over buildings"?

        we would've called it parkour if we had known what parkour was back then

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      • RandomBacon 2 days ago

        I never heard it quite put that way, but yes, I did something very similar.

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      • ethbr1 2 days ago

        {insert Sonic ring sound in your head}

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  • Beijinger 2 days ago

    Is written in the article that it can fit more seats. And if you click through the pics you will see it.

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  • 7speter 2 days ago

    Station wagons from the prehistoric era were family cars and had bench seats, and only had a Radio…

    Reply View 1 reply
  • drivingmenuts 2 days ago

    > Yes, definitely. It being a 2 seater is kind of a deal breaker for families

    I believe I saw there are plans for some sort of SUV conversion.

    > Catering to families means expensive bells and whistles, like entertainment systems, etc.

    IF it could just get a bluetooth signal from an iDevice or some Android thing, that would probably suffice for a basic option. If the owner needs more than than, let them install (or have installed) some sort of third-party infotainment head of some sort.

    Back in the old days, cars sometimes had a single speaker and that was plenty sufficient for listening to music.

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taylodl 2 days ago

I'd want the mobile app to be an auxiliary, not a requirement for operating the truck. Keep the dashboard simple.

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  • ryandrake 2 days ago

    I'd be worried that once an app got a foothold into the product, the company would be unable to resist the urge to spread the app's tentacles across the entire vehicle, adding connectivity and telemetry and DRM, integrating it into the other car's systems, adding remote-this and wireless-that, and then inevitably the product would end up just like the turd cars we have today.

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    • instaclay 2 days ago

      I have a iron filter that works via app. All configs can be done with button presses on the valve but in a much more tedious process/workflow.

      It connects via bluetooth and not WiFi. If the company goes belly up, I'd just need the APK and an android phone to continue using the app to configure the valve and see/download water usage data.

      Fast forward 20 years when I can't install the APK on android v79, I'd need an older phone to run the APK.. but that seems to be pulling hairs.

      Apps would be great, it's how you handle the backend to it that's the gotcha.

      I also have a water softener with an app that no longer works that had it's backend shut down. It can still be configured via the valve head button presses, but none of the "smart" usage data is available. As an example of good design, this is a perfect dichotomy of one company doing it well and one company doing it un-well[sic].

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      • ryandrake 2 days ago

        Not only the backend, but what happens 40 years in the future, when our phones don't run the app anymore, or we're all on phones that are totally unlike the phones of today, or if we don't even have phones or apps? I would expect the car to still work after that long, and making it dependent on a technology that is specific to a particular decade risks premature obsolescence.

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      • nine_k 2 days ago

        Not an app, but an API. And an app on top of that, if desired.

        Also there are evergreen interfaces, so to say. An RS232 / RS485 connector that serves 115kbps 8N1 serial interface and runs a VT220-based TUI should still be serviceable 40 years from now (VT220 was released 42 years ago). A now-modern web-based GUI also has a great chance to be serviceable 40 years from now.

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    • oslem 2 days ago

      100% agree. I would be fine if they had an estimated time-to-fully-charged displayed on the screen. I don’t need to know the status of my vehicle, personally. I would imagine a third party system could be implemented to achieve most of what one would need.

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  • reginald78 2 days ago

    Nice idea in theory. In practice, apps imply ongoing OTA connectivity, which means the truck will be updated to show ads or at the very least collect and sell all my driving information to any dirtbag that can rub two nickels together. Connected devices can alter the deal so they will, after all I've lost any leverage against them after I purchased the vehicle.

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  • organsnyder 2 days ago

    If the vehicle had an open interface (maybe via CAN bus over the OBD2 port?), then DIY and aftermarket apps become possibilities.

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  • theamazing0 2 days ago

    I think legally they would need to require using an app for their back view camera. All new cars in the United States after 2018 need one and I don't see how it would work without using the phone/tablet as a display.

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    • mulmen 2 days ago

      The article says the rear camera feed will be displayed on a screen behind the steering wheel which doubles as the speedometer and charge display.

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      • ryandrake 2 days ago

        That seems like a clever and reasonable compromise to comply with a particularly bad regulation.

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  • Beijinger 2 days ago

    You need an app. You could make steering to the left only available in a 50 USD per month subscription but steering right is free or something like it.

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EvanAnderson 2 days ago

> Noooooooooo! No apps, please!

I wish devices could have web servers and web-based UI rather than thick "apps" that end up rotting when device manufacturers arbitrarily decide that old software won't work anymore (cough, cough-- Apple-- cough, cough).

I know we can't because "security", no end-to-end over the Internet anymore, etc. >sigh<

It seems like we've engineered the networking and software ecosystem to promote disposable "smart" devices. It's almost like somebody profits from it. Hmm...

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  • nine_k 2 days ago

    Why, we of course could if we cared. Let the car offer a wifi access point. WPA3 is secure enough, but you can of course have an extra layer of TLS inside it.

    For the extra paranoid, a car could have a USB socket that pretends to be a wired network interface, offering DHCP.

    Run a web server for car diagnostics and maintenance when connected to this interface. Do it from the comfort of your laptop, or anywhere anytime using your phone. Zero chance of remote exploits, if you set the things correctly on the car side. An ESP32-based system with $5 BOM would suffice to provide this.

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    • andrewla 2 days ago

      Not with off the shelf protocols. Yes WPA3 is plenty secure, but any AP advertising the same SSID with the same key would allow the device to connect. So how do you know that you're connected to your car, and not to the black hat AP next to it?

      From there, you can have as much TLS as you want, but that still won't give you server identity unless the server certificate is signed by someone you already trust. So a generic web browser would be screwed, because you either add SlateTruckCertificateAuthority to the globally trusted list, and then you still have to deal with revocations and certificate expiry, or you use some other CA that is willing to delegate. There's no good support for self-signed certificates or pinned certificates, and even if there were, the initial connection would be tough.

      Unfortunately this really isn't a well-solved problem. Bluetooth can get you part of the way there, but it only offers really good security in theory (in practice it is constantly having issues) and it is intrinsically limited.

      Reply View 1 reply
      • nine_k 2 days ago

        First of all, the SSID and password should be unique. Then, you can have a QR code printed in the owner's manual, and inside the glove compartment, or something. There's a standard for QR codes for connecting to wifi, so you don't have to type in the long and cryptic password.

        But I don't see much incentive to produce a fake wifi AP for me to connect to with my car diagnostics. I'm not going to punch my bank account and password into it anyway. If I'm misled to alter the battery charging settings for someone else's car, or for a pretend mockup of the car controller, I don't see what the perpetrator could gain from it.

        Then there must be a button on the car dashboard, or near, which I should press to activate the AC (it does not need to be up all the time), and press again to switch it off. This can serve as an easy way to check if there's doubt. The interface may have a function like headlights on / off as a simple way to check that the connection works.

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  • dlcarrier 15 hours ago

    A locally-hosted web interface would likely be easier to reach a given level of security than a centrally hosted interface, but obtaining and renewing SSL/TLS certificates is a requirement for HTTPS interfaces, and are designed around centralized and frequently updated centrally hosted systems, so it's only really doable with a different protocol.

    It would still be easy to have a locally-hosted interface, over any other protocol, with an open-source client that could easily be ported to any future hardware and operating system.

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  • Marsymars 19 hours ago

    A web server and UI is much “thicker” than a REST API. The problem is that the API used to talk to the app isn’t open to the owner.

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nine_k 2 days ago

> Yes to a simple battery system!

Battery balancing and conditioning does not need to be fancy, and does not need a fancy screen; a couple of LEDs should suffice.

But I'd like my batteries charged competently, recharged efficiently while braking, worn uniformly, and kept at reasonable temperature. It's not hard to do completely automatically and invisibly; a quality electric bike would have it.

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Animats 2 days ago

> - Lack of good charge management and battery conditioning.

Why should it lack that? That's a tiny piece of software in the charge controller, which on this vehicle ought to be some tiny microcontroller.

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  • enslavedrobot 2 days ago

    In car it requires liquid cooling and from conversations I've had with former Tesla engineers, exquisite control over power quality.

    Just ask a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Bolt owner.

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    • warble a day ago

      EV battery engineer here. It's not hard. Battery management systems are often over engineered but the state of the art is fairly straightforward and will allow battery packs of sufficient size last 200k miles or more easily.

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      • enslavedrobot 8 hours ago

        I dunno the PhD electrochemist that I know who spent a long time teasing out the conditions and requirements for megapack operation didn't think it was trivial. That's also the reason Tesla pays Jeff Dahn so much money. A million miles/20k cycles is the goal.

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    • justin66 2 days ago

      > exquisite control over power quality

      So a... 16 bit microcontroller?

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      • enslavedrobot 8 hours ago

        The electrochemical interface where lithium intercolates into the anode and cathode of the battery experiences microscopic electric field variations that, depending on the local surface geometry, lead to side reactions and battery degradation. The hardware that converts DC to DC and DC to AC must be designed to mitigate the voltage ripple and harmonics that exacerbate the localized electric field extremes that prematurely degrade electrode interfaces and battery electrolytes. State of the art BMS and rectifier components are much more difficult to build than you might think.

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burnerthrow008 2 days ago

> Yes to a simple battery system!

But you realize this will make cold-weather range suck and on-the-road charging suck, right?

Preheating the battery and cabin on "shore power" is something EV buyers just expect at this point because that can consume 2-3kWh of energy (equivalent to 6-10 miles or 10-16 km). That's almost 10% of Slate's range (see below).

Preheating the battery about 10-15 minutes before you arrive at a supercharger is another expected feature. It can increase charge acceptance rate by over 50% (reduce charge time by 1/3).

The 150 mile range is extremely optimistic given the size of the battery and shape of the truck. With just 5% top and bottom buffers, you'd need to achieve over 3.1 miles/kWh... which is the consumption expected of a small aerodynamic sedan. I would bet real money that highway range (at 75 mph) for the small battery is less than 120 miles from 100% to 0.

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  • warble a day ago

    Highway speeds are worst case scenario so maybe you're right but I doubt it.

    Your charge rate acceptance number is surprising to me, I've never seen anything like this in my years of experience designing EV batteries. Preconditioning helps extreme fast charging but isn't necessary for 1-2 C charges at all unless it's very cold out.

    There's some caveats to this depending on the exact chemistry but if anything the newer semi solid state NMC cells are even less dependent on this and can charge down to -20C.

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potato3732842 2 days ago

> - Bucket seats. I need a bench seat so I can take my wife and dog. Think weekend glamping trips. Picture 8 shows a bucket seat. It doesn't look like that would work.

Take her car on those trips then. You wouldn't complain you can't take a Miata camping, why would you complain you can't take a 2-seat pickup? camping? The product isn't trying to do everything. It's trying to be the minimum viable truck and be good at it. And just like the purpose built roadster you give up unrelated stuff, like family hauling.

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  • 83 2 days ago

    > You wouldn't complain you can't take a Miata camping, why would you complain you can't take a 2-seat pickup? camping?

    Because 2-seat pickups used to function this way. It's okay to pine for functionality that has been lost, particularly when a new product like this comes along and gets your hopes up.

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tw04 2 days ago

>Noooooooooo! No apps, please! Finally a car not tethered to and dependent on your phone, and we already have our first request to app-ify it!

What car is tied to your phone? A mustang mach-e, for instance, does not require your phone at all. It has a FOB for opening the doors and starting it, you can program the charging times from the in-car screen.

The app is optional, exactly as it should be. This car DESPERATELY is going to need an app when it comes to charging whether you know it or not. With no in-car screen you'll have absolutely no way to control charging which WILL come back to bite you.

>Yes to a simple battery system!

"simple" in this case will add cost. Nearly every EV has the battery as a part of the structural frame of the vehicle for a reason (there are some niche exceptions in China). Nothing is impossible, but I don't see them making the battery easily swappable, while also being structurally sound, and keeping the low price point.

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  • nancyminusone 2 days ago

    > DESPERATELY is going to need an app when it comes to charging whether you know it or not

    I don't own an EV. What for? Do you really need more than a button or two and some leds?

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    • yreg 2 days ago

      In addition to the sibling comment, you want to be able to check if the vehicle is charging and everything is fine remotely. EVs randomly stopping charging for various reasons is not rare at all. You want to get a notification.

      You want to know when the vehicle finishes charging so you can vacate the public charger.

      You want to be able to reduce the current when the charging is tripping breakers wherever you are.

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    • tw04 2 days ago

      Controlling your charging. You shouldn’t be charging more than 80% for daily driving unless you want to destroy your battery.

      You will almost assuredly also want to be able to precondition if you live in a cold climate.

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      • tredre3 2 days ago

        Again, why do you consider those things as better done via a smartphone and an app, versus using the already built-in screen (the one behind the wheel)?

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        • tw04 a day ago

          As I’ve already stated, I consider it better done by both. I don’t think forcing one or the other is a good user experience.

          Every preview I’ve seen has stated that display is for the speedometer and backup camera, and that’s it. It’s not an input device.

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almosthere a day ago

I absolutely agree with you on the NO APP thing. I too just want air conditioning knobs and that's it. A truck from 1980 that is an EV that can haul lumber to build a house.

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pedalpete 2 days ago

I think you're assuming a mobile app would mean that the car is dependent on your phone. Just because an app can be connected to your car doesn't mean the app controls your car.

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