Comment by g8oz 8 days ago
The government may be within its legal rights. As an expression of values however it's hard not to see the expulsion of these students as petty politicalized retaliation. The sort of thing you would see in an electoral autocracy as opposed to a liberal democracy.
Not in my America.
I welcome any and all persons from anywhere in the world if they want to come and protest the American war machine
Our forefathers would be absolutely ashamed at what you just said. Protesting a totalitarian government that lacks proper representation is the most American thing you can possibly do, and that makes these immigrants more American than you will ever be, as long as you hold such views.
Edit: It seems you have edited your post in order to remove the extremely distasteful language you originally expressed. I assume you still hold such views or you'd not have expressed them to begin with, and as such my comment still stands.
> Our forefathers would be absolutely ashamed...
Well, like half of our forefathers. Maybe 30%.
America has always been this weird combined project of Hopeless Idealists and The Worst People In The World. Our forefathers sought independence for freedom and self-determination and all sorts of other noble things, but also because many of them owned a bunch of slaves and were worried that was going to be outlawed in the near future. And then sought independence again a century later out of the same fear.
That's a good point, I often use "forefathers" loosely when I really mean just the good forefathers, such as Franklin, Paine, etc. I need to figure out a way to be more precise about this without being too verbose.
Fuck that!
We have this thing called the First Amendment. It applies to all people under the jurisdiction of the United States. There’s no exception for “guests.” Criticizing the government is a time-honored American tradition. Throwing people out for it is absolutely vile.
Rayiner says it in a comment upthread. Whereas most lawyers in the US work on cases filed in state court, Rayiner works on cases filed in Federal court, and if you were to sue the US government to try to assert the free-speech rights of the immigrants we are talking about, you'd do it in Federal court.
Sadly, his comment has been flagged.
It's hard for me not to be extremely cynical about the anti-Israel protests that happened. For one thing, a lot of people who favor them gloss over the illegal things done at them like break-ins, vandalism, trespassing, and illegal occupations.
But in general I think the case made by the pro-Palestinian side was that somehow universities bore responsibility for what Israel did because of vague investments in their endowments. I didn't think owning an ETF that held a weapons manufacturer or some Israeli company on the stock market was explicitly Zionist but this was the premise for protests. Why not protest the US or Israel directly? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
It felt like they were asking universities to explicitly be pro-Palestine which is a strange thing to ask for in America.
It absolutely is not. And your views are very concerning. Everyone residing in the US is entitled to the ammendments. That is exactly why Guantanamo bay was formed, as a matter of fact. What makes this so much worse is these individuals were not arrested for criticizing these United States, but for criticizing a hostile foreign nation, that just so happens to be the darling of billionaires of a certain faith, who constitute an overwhelming majority in the aristocracy of the US (and have been there since around the 70s). It can in fact be traced back to AZC, when JFK forced them to register as foreign agents.
I completely agree on this, however I will note that the courts somehow always forget that the number 2 exists.
I’m not weighing in on the specific protests here—I’m actually not unsympathetic to your point about that. I’m talking about the general power of the government to decide what kinds of foreigners it wants to allow in the country.
Do you think the first amendment means the government has to allow in immigrants that are Nazi sympathizers? What about Communists?
Americans have free speech. But Americans can also decide which foreigners are allowed the privilege of being on American soil. In fact, I would say that it’s precisely because we have free speech that we must carefully guard who is allowed into the tent.
Who is we in this regard? You and I do not decide on such matters (was there a survey or referendum?) I agree with your sentiment, but I reject that a select few (rich Jews like the Adelsons) get to decide who comes in by donating to a campaign and influencing intepretations for our ammendments. Let us apply this standard to everyone and block IDF soldiers alongside those individuals. Will this ever happen? I doubt it (Gal Gadot served in those armed forces for instance, and is a darling of Disney executives). The problem I have with this issue, is it is being weaponized by one group to subjugate another. I am not sympathetic to either sides (although as of late, I am much more sympathetic to the Palestinian plight, given they are victims of an oppression at the hand of a much more powerful entity, backed by powerful states that are losing the propaganda edge they have mastered for so long). I have an issue with the weaponization of free speech to advocate on behalf of one group that holds a lot more power in the US. That is not something I accept. Ultimately, you and I can debate this, but no effect will result from this. The Adelsons made donations to Trump explicitly because of Columbia's protests, and what they asked for was crystal clear: everyone (including citizens) must be deported or blacklisted from jobs for protesting against darling Israel. The deans of Harvard and Columbia were sacked. You see this as a free market or a lawful interpretation of Immigration. I see it as foreign interference with a cooperation from American traitors (like the Adelsons) and treason to American values. It is an anti-American initiative that prioritizes the wellbeing of Israel at the expense of American free speech and the well-being of students that chose to come here.
If you're a guest, act like a guest. Anti-Israel protests are by extension a protest against the US foreign policy, so yeah... You protest your host in a violent and disruptive manner, you probably shouldn't have been allowed in to begin with.