Comment by saalweachter

Comment by saalweachter 8 days ago

> Our forefathers would be absolutely ashamed...

Well, like half of our forefathers. Maybe 30%.

America has always been this weird combined project of Hopeless Idealists and The Worst People In The World. Our forefathers sought independence for freedom and self-determination and all sorts of other noble things, but also because many of them owned a bunch of slaves and were worried that was going to be outlawed in the near future. And then sought independence again a century later out of the same fear.

soulofmischief 8 days ago

That's a good point, I often use "forefathers" loosely when I really mean just the good forefathers, such as Franklin, Paine, etc. I need to figure out a way to be more precise about this without being too verbose.

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onetimeusename 8 days ago

The good forefathers? What is the basis for deciding? Like back in 2017 there was the Unite the Right rally on the UVA campus. I am guessing you would not support that kind of anti-Semitic speech and "protest against totalitarian government" although there's not really much difference in speech said at that rally versus the anti-Israel ones at Columbia except by who was saying it. Maybe I am wrong and you are a free speech absolutist but if not I would be interested in hearing how to decide which hate speech should be cracked down upon and which shouldn't.

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- soulofmischief 7 days ago
  
  > What is the basis for deciding?
  For one, whether or not they supported abolition.
  I also will not engage in a debate with a poisoned premise: To be clear, supporting Israel today means supporting genocide. That is the beginning and end of it. You can denounce Israel and still denounce Hamas. You can support an individual Jewish person's right to life and liberty without making the mistake of supporting their genocidal government.
  Given that my own government, the United States, is also genocidal and has a history of bloody colonialism, I appreciate when people can make this distinction. I condemn my own government and still support my fellow countrymen.
  None of this needs pointing out. Any attempt to paint an anti-Israel stance as an antisemitic stance is deliberately deceitful and wholly reprehensible. Israel the government is illegitimate and Netanyahu is wanted in the International Criminal Court for genocidal crimes.
  
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  onetimeusename 7 days ago
  
  For the record I am not really defending Israel. I think they routinely violate conventions and illegally expand their territory. They also mistreat non-Jewish people. So it is reasonable to protest against Israel.
  I am more interested in knowing how someone decides what is moral and immoral, i.e. which causes they choose to support. I have my theories. I have very mixed feelings towards the pro-Palestine protestors on campuses stemming from the tactics used, how they directed protests at universities themselves and not Israel, and the subtle implications that universities were "Zionist" for vague reasons. I guess that by extension most Americans are Zionist also?? I am not sure if that's fair and then obviously there's an element of conspiracy theory that is also kind of nasty.
  I note you mentioned abolition, colonialism, and genocide so I think it's not a stretch to say you decide based on anti-Fascism which I'll leave open to definition.
  
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  soulofmischief 7 days ago
  
  I apologize for assuming!
  I do believe it's clear that if you support the American-Israeli war machine, you support colonialism and Zionism intrinsically. So I don't know if most Americans are Zionist or not, but I do personally know a frightening amount of Zionists.
  A confused bunch, as I am originally from the Deep South and most of these Zionists I speak of were shitting on Jews and making light of the Holocaust just a few years ago. It seems paradoxical until you realize the common thread is the support of fascism.
  > I note you mentioned abolition, colonialism, and genocide so I think it's not a stretch to say you decide based on anti-Fascism which I'll leave open to definition.
  Absolutely. Specifically, I start from the Golden Rule, or a modified version of it, I also back the spirit of the Constitution, which in my mind should have always extended to protect not just white, land-owning Americans, but the entire world, rich and poor, given that the rights it recognizes are considered inalienable for all humans.
  I also find solidarity within some of the views of most of our founding fathers, especially regarding basic things such as taxation without representation, even if I don't agree with their views on slavery or certain economic positions.
  
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