Comment by tialaramex

Comment by tialaramex 9 days ago

26 replies

Election is a bad way to choose almost anything. The enthusiasm of Americans for adding yet more elected roles rather than, say, having anything done by anybody competent is part of how they got here. The only place elections are even a plausible choice is political office - with an election and as close as you can to universal suffrage now the idiots running things are everybody's fault, although Americans even managed to screw that up pretty good. Sortition would probably be cheaper, but elections are fine for this purpose.

mmooss 8 days ago

> Election is a bad way to choose almost anything.

Except the alternatives! No form of government is more effective, competent, just, or free of corruption.

  • hayst4ck 8 days ago

    That's false. Everything comes down to good leadership. Monarchies with good leadership very well might have incredibly effective anti-corruption techniques and competency. China is managing a billion people and their infrastructure and tech is incredible.

    The problems are two fold. The first is vetoing of bad ideas. No leader is right 100% of the time, and when they are wrong, someone must have the power to veto. There must be some way for reason to triumph over power, and a leader who chooses to be responsible is capable of deferring to expertise.

    The second is succession. A good leader today may be succeeded by rotten leader tomorrow, but both have the same legitimacy, because the legitimacy comes from power alone and not reason.

    > effective, competent, just, or free of corruption.

    These things are a result of culture, not a result of the government itself. The government influences culture, but they are first and foremost functions of culture, specifically a culture of tolerating speaking truth to power, dissent, critical thinking, tolerance, and solidarity.

    • hnhg 8 days ago

      I think people get confused into thinking that democracy is about voting when it is should be about reducing prolonged concentrations of power, because of the innate tendency for it to be abused and hoarded. So to support your point, if your culture does not support the concept of good "democratic" governance, and no one strives for the institutions and constitutions to support it, you might be better off with a benevolent dictator, for as long as they last before a not-so-benevolent one.

      • hayst4ck 8 days ago

        Timothy Snyder would encapsulate this idea as "Democracy is not something you are, but something you do."

        Which makes a lot of sense if you say the same thing about Christianity. Christian isn't something you are, Christianity is something you do.

        Both have hallowed dogmas that are poorly understood by their followers, the constitution and the bible/teachings of jesus respectively.

      • mmooss 6 days ago

        > I think people get confused into thinking that democracy is about voting when it is should be about reducing prolonged concentrations of power

        Voting is the definition and core mechanism of democracy: Government by the consent of the governed, to protect their rights, their lives, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

        What's bizarre is, probably in a place where you have the benefits of centuries of overwhelming success, your extreme attempts to redefine it.

        cui bono?, other than dictators. What has worked better than democracy?

        > if your culture does not support the concept of good "democratic" governance, and no one strives for the institutions and constitutions to support it, you might be better off with a benevolent dictator, for as long as they last before a not-so-benevolent one.

        Which culture? Democracy has been an incredible success all over the world - unprecedented success in history in most places it's taken hold.

        Yours are the old propaganda of dictators - our 'culture', that undefined nonsense people cite for their prejudices, isn't compatible. The question is, why do you take up their cause?

        They also love that you are sitting on the sidelines distracted, criticizing, rather than acting as a democratic citizen.

      • yyyk 8 days ago

        Democracy and elections are not opinion polls. It's a distribution of political power.

    • mmooss 6 days ago

      > That's false. Everything comes down to good leadership. Monarchies with good leadership very well might have incredibly effective anti-corruption techniques and competency. China is managing a billion people and their infrastructure and tech is incredible.

      Can you name a monarchy that is nearly as free, safe, and prosperous as advanced democracies? That is less corrupt? Is China? (No.)

      > These things are a result of culture, not a result of the government itself.

      How do you explain all the cultures around the world with successful democracies that meet my descriptions? How about Taiwan and (formerly) Hong Kong - same cultures as communist China, far more free, prosperous, non-corrupt, safe ....

      There is also the issue of rights. What right does someone have to rule me without my consent? Who the heck are they, other than thugs with guns?

      • defrost 6 days ago

        > Can you name a monarchy that is nearly as free, safe, and prosperous as advanced democracies?

        Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom.

        Andorra, Belgium, Denmark, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Spain, and Sweden.

        Liechtenstein and Monaco.

        • mmooss 5 days ago

          As you have listed advanced democracies with figurehead relics of monarchy, we agree!

  • bruce511 8 days ago

    That's the point the parent made. Elections are suitable for political officers.

    Once you start electing other jobs, like judges or plumbers, then you get whoever you elected, rather than necessarily a person able to do the job.

    In other words, getting elected is a specific skill set. Doing the job is a different skill set. In most fields those skill sets do not overlap.

    Even in govt the overlap is marginal. Which is why some elected officials are pretty useless at actually "governing".

    To my American friends all I can say is "you voted for this".

    • tobbe2064 8 days ago

      Well,of course you get who ever you elected, that's a trueism that holds for any method.

      What method do you prefer?Trust in the market and chose the one with the highest price, or, choose the one recommended by most, aka the popular choice or the elected?

      • bruce511 7 days ago

        You're offering two choices which prove the point that electing is a poor way to fill a post.

        "popularity" does not imply competence. Popularity is easily gamed and bought. Given that unlimited business money can be spent on elections, it's mostly bought.

        I'm not sure what you mean by market, or highest price, but I assume you mean the above?

        The opposite of elections is appointment. Based on competence. So, for example, in my company I want job x done well, so I appoint a person based on their ability to do x.

        Of course this assumes I want x done well. If I'm elected, and I want x done badly, then I can appoint someone based on other factors, like ideology or loyalty etc.

  • ekianjo 8 days ago

    > free of corruption.

    There are just plenty examples of corruption among the people we elect, everywhere.

  • Aspos 8 days ago

    This is a dangerous axiom which will take you to wrong conclusions. Elected officials may be better, more efficient and less corrupt at a local level, but this does not scale.

Quarrelsome 9 days ago

democracy is bad but its still better than more autocratic systems because it encourages change which keeps succession well-oiled and also acts as a vent for tyranny to curtail its worst excesses. This applies as much to politics as it does a school board.

  • umanwizard 9 days ago

    Democracy doesn’t entail having tons of minor roles being elected. That’s actually completely unique to the US, as far as I know. A lot of the positions that are elected in the US would be neutral civil servants in any other democratic country I can think of.

    • Spivak 8 days ago

      > neutral civil servants

      Look I'm not saying we don't have these but the set of positions that are neutral is much smaller. Thanks to the political whipping boys de jour any position of power within academic or educational institutions has become politicized.

  • rfrey 9 days ago

    Having judges and university trustees hired on merit rather than campaigning to be elected does not make a system autocratic.

    • brokeAstronomer 9 days ago

      Being super rich != merit. This is what seems to be happening in practice.

    • judahmeek 9 days ago

      What better merit is there than public approval for positions like that?

      • vkou 8 days ago

        If you ask five people who can't speak French to tell me which French-language essay deserves a higher grade, you'll quickly discover that their merit-finding abilities are a coin flip.

        The whole purpose of elections is tangential to merit. There's important reasons to have them, but finding the 'best' candidate isn't one of them.

    • mmooss 8 days ago

      Who chooses them? What makes you think they choose them on merit?

      • LtWorf 8 days ago

        It's the whole theological foundation of northern european and american protestantism = being rich means good loves you, so you're a good person.

        How they got there from jesus saying rich people can't go to heaven is one of those theological acrobacies they criticise so much in catholics, but don't disregard doing themselves when suits them.

  • mmooss 6 days ago

    It also ensures that many people, including people others don't like and dismiss, get a voice and some real power.