Comment by jchw 9 days ago
I'm rooting for Ladybird to gain traction in the future. Currently, it is using cURL proper for networking. That is probably going to have some challenges (I think cURL is still limited in some ways, e.g. I don't think it can do WebSockets over h2 yet) but on the other hand, having a rising browser engine might eventually remove this avenue for fingerprinting since legitimate traffic will have the same fingerprint as stock cURL.
but on the other hand, having a rising browser engine might eventually remove this avenue for fingerprinting
If what I've seen from CloudFlare et.al. are any indication, it's the exact opposite --- the amount of fingerprinting and "exploitation" of implementation-defined behaviour has increased significantly in the past few months, likely in an attempt to kill off other browser engines; the incumbents do not like competition at all.
The enemy has been trying to spin it as "AI bots DDoSing" but one wonders how much of that was their own doing...
It's entirely deliberate. CloudFlare could certainly distinguish low-volume but legit web browsers from bots, as much as they can distinguish chrome/edge/safari/firefox from bots. That is if they cared to.
> Are we really blaming...
No, they're discussing increased fingerprinting / browser profiling recently and how it affects low-market-share browsers.
I saw that, but I'm still not sure how this fits in:
> The enemy has been trying to spin it as "AI bots DDoSing" but one wonders how much of that was their own doing...
I'm reading that as `enemy == fingerprinters`, `that == AI bots DDoSing`, and `their own == webmasters, hosting providers, and CDNs (i.e., the fingerprinters)`, which sounds pretty straightforwardly like the fingerprinters are responsible for the DDoSing they're receiving.
That interpretation doesn't seem to match the rest of the post though. Do you happen to have a better one?
I think "slop" only refers to the output of generative AI systems. bot, crawler, scraper, or spider would be a more apt term for software making (excessive) requests to collect data.
When I spoke to these guys [0] we touched on those quirks and foibles that make a signature (including TCP stack stuff beyond control of any userspace app).
I love this curl, but I worry that if a component takes on the role of deception in order to "keep up" it accumulates a legacy of hard to maintain "compatibility" baggage.
Ideally it should just say... "hey I'm curl, let me in"
The problem of course lies with a server that is picky about dress codes, and that problem in turn is caused by crooks sneaking in disguise, so it's rather a circular chicken and egg thing.
> Ideally it should just say... "hey I'm curl, let me in"
What? Ideally it should just say "GET /path/to/page".
Sending a user agent is a bad idea. That shouldn't be happening at all, from any source.
Since the first browser appeared I've always meant that sending a user agent id was a really bad idea. It breaks with the fundamental idea of the web protocol, that it's the server's responsibility to provide data and it's the client's responsibility to present it to the user. The server does not need to know anything about the client. Including user agent in this whole thing was a huge mistake as it allowed web site designers to code for specific quirks in browsers. I can to some extent accept a capability list from the client, but I'm not so sure even that is necessary.
Absolutely, yes! A protocol should not be tied to client details. Where did "User Agent" strings even come from?
They're in the HTTP/1.0 spec. https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1945#section-10.15
10.15 User-Agent
The User-Agent request-header field contains information about the
user agent originating the request. This is for statistical purposes,
the tracing of protocol violations, and automated recognition of user
agents for the sake of tailoring responses to avoid particular user
agent limitations.What should instead happen is that Chrome should stop sending as much of a fingerprint, so that sites won't be able to fingerprint. That won't happen, since it's against Google's interests.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how TLS fingerprinting works. The "fingerprint" isn't from chrome sending a "fingerprint: [random uuid]" attribute in every TLS negotiation. It's derived from various properties of the TLS stack, like what ciphers it can accept. You can't make "stop sending as much of a fingerprint", without every browser agreeing on the same TLS stack. It's already minimal as it is, because there's basically no aspect of the TLS stack that users can configure, and chrome bundles its own, so you'd expect every chrome user to have the same TLS fingerprint. It's only really useful to distinguish "fake" chrome users (eg. curl with custom header set, or firefox users with user agent spoofer) from "real" chrome users.
What? Just fix the ciphers to a list of what's known to work + some safety margin. Each user needing some different specific cipher (like a cipher for horses, and one for dogs), is not a thing.
Part of the fingerprint is stuff like the ordering of extensions, which Chrome could easily do but AFAIK doesn’t.
(AIUI Google’s Play Store is one of the biggest TLS fingerprinting culprits.)
ladybird does not have the resources to be a contender to current browsers. its well marketed but has no benefits or reason to exist over chromium. its also a major security risk as it is designed yet again in demonstrably unsafe c++.
I used to call it "cURL", but apparently officially it is curl, correct?
As in “See-URL”? I’ve always called it curl but “see url” makes a hell of a lot of sense too! I’ve just never considered it and it’s one of those things you rarely say out loud.
I prefer cURL as well, but according to official sources it is curl. :D Not sure how it is pronounced though, I pronounce it as "see-url" and/or "see-U-R-L". It might be pronounced as "curl" though.
I’d guess Daniel pronounce it as ”kurl”, with a hard C like in ”crust”, since hes swedish.
It would be good to see Ladybird's cURL usage improve cURL itself, such as the WebSocket over h2 example you mention. It is also a good test of cURL to see and identify what functionality cURL is missing w.r.t. real-world browser workflows.