Comment by jl2718

Comment by jl2718 2 days ago

11 replies

I have an interesting anecdote about that. I was consulting for a very large tech company on their advertising product. They essentially wanted an upsell product to sell to advertisers, like a premium offering to increase their reach. My first step is always to establish a baseline by backtesting their algorithm against simple zeroth and first-order estimators. Measuring this is a little bit complicated, but it seemed their targeting was worse than naive-bayes by a large factor, especially with respect to customer conversion. I was a pretty good data scientist, but this company paid their DS people an awful lot of money, so I couldn’t have been the first to actually discover this. The short story is that they didn’t want a better algorithm. They wanted an upsell feature. I started getting a lot of work in advertising, and it took me a number of clients to see a general trend that the advertising business is not interested in delivering ads to the people that want the product. Their real interest is in creating a stratification of product offerings that are all roughly as valuable to the advertiser as the price paid for them. They have to find ways to split up the tranches of conversion probability and sell them all separately, without revealing that this is only possible by selling ad placements that are intentionally not as good as they could be. Note that this is not insider knowledge of actual policy, just common observations from analyzing data at different places.

bee_rider 2 days ago

One thing you know about ad guys—they are really good at tricking people into spending money. I mean, it’s right there in their job description. For some reason their customers don’t seem think they’ll fall for it, I guess.

  • chgs 2 days ago

    The average “smart person” thinks a trillion dollar industry can’t brainwash them.

    • dspillett 2 days ago

      In terms of the people with products to advertise being crewed over by the ad industry, I think it is more that they don't see the similarity between the ad industry brain-washing us and the ad industry brain-washing them. Perhaps the disconnect happens because they want to interact with the ad industry, so get their stuff hawked to us, but we'd usually rather not.

      Another interesting disconnect is that sometimes a person is both the “us” and the “them” in different contexts. i knew someone who would complain about some of it on other sides but when pointed out that his site used some of the same tricks he'd respond with “yeah, but I need that because …”.

    • pdimitar 2 days ago

      Meh. I have no idea if I am smart or not -- the last several years proved to me I am definitely stupider than I thought -- but I know that with time I only started buying things I directly derive value from or in the worst-case scenario, I'll undoubtedly need during the next few months. No cutesy phone cases, no gadgets "because why not", no extra socks "because you never know", no new toaster because the current one just a tad too big etc. Almost no unnecessary purchases.

      It's much more related to maturing on this or that axis than being smart IMO.

    • red-iron-pine 2 days ago

      "advertising works, even when you know exactly how advertising works"

mrweasel 2 days ago

Effectively the advertisers could buy less ad space and get the same or better conversion? That is somewhat hilarious because that means that not only are the end-users "the product" the advertisers are as well. There's only cows for the milking, on either side... and shareholders.

  • rrrx3 2 days ago

    Yes. It works really well. You can do a WHOLE LOTTA ARB(tm)(circle R), buying the crap placements at super low CPMs and selling the performance difference to clients. This is mitigated by those clients who ONLY WANT THE BEST (but of course, sir, right this way) - but there are ways around that, too - like the MFA (made for advertising) domains of all the big-name sites you can think of that solely exist for your RTB machine to pump ads stacked on top of each other, and only visible to bots and crawlers. It doesn't help that on one side, you have folks astute with math (Data Scientists et al.) and on the other, a metric shit ton of Media Planners/Buyers who are just handed a budget and are often pretty naive about the intricacies of how it all works. But it all sort of goes back to the original point - people put on blinders. They just wanna see the metric get hit, the numbers go up. Most of the time they don't care how any of that works as long as they look good to their boss, and the industry mostly obliges.

rrrx3 2 days ago

> They have to find ways to split up the tranches of conversion probability and sell them all separately, without revealing that this is only possible by selling ad placements that are intentionally not as good as they could be.

I worked in the adtech space for almost 10 years and can confirm this is where we landed, too.

>The short story is that they didn’t want a better algorithm. They wanted an upsell feature.

This is why I got out. No one cares about getting the right ad to the right person. There's layers upon layers of hand-waving, fraud, and grift. Adtech is a true embodiment of "The Emperor's New Clothes."

  • maeil a day ago

    Is there a solution? Obviously those companies are not going to change, so what can everyone else do about it - besides already being very rich, starting a competing ad-tech without funding, managing to get market share, and managing to remain one of the good guys.

    The only thing I can think of is to use things like influencer ads on places like Instagram or Youtube which ironically sound like much better value for money as you actually know what you're getting for the money.

sanj 2 days ago

This is a really interesting insight. Drop me a line if you want to talk further.