Comment by hiAndrewQuinn

Comment by hiAndrewQuinn 4 days ago

26 replies

Personally, I would hate this. As a student I far preferred PDFs, etc. because I could quickly make Anki cards out of them, strip mine them for insights and good practice problems and then just burn them into my long term memory over the next few months. We should be teaching children about spaced repetition systems and helping them instill the one habit actually proven to help them remember what they learn, not banishing them back to the Carboniferous Era!

EDIT: I'm getting downvoted, and I stand by what I said. :) Your kid's inability to focus should not be the reason my kid can no longer remember his material. That's a separate problem which can be solved with an approach as simple as "turn off the modem".

pwillia7 4 days ago

Nah -- the schools should teach to the average student and address the average problems. I don't begrudge the school system for not catering to me when I went through it.

  • graemep 4 days ago

    No one is really average. Even people who are average overall are not average in every skill and every subject. /classroom This is an intrinsic problem with classroom teaching. There is an HN discussion about home education (or "homeschooling" as people misleadingly call it) at the moment...

  • bluGill 4 days ago

    Schools need to teach everyone basic skills for life in society. Whatever those are. In lower grades that is about the same for everyone, but as you move on schools need to push kids to where they will do well. I took metal shop in school, but I was always on the college track and so this was just a fun class I only took because I have one block that nothing else fit in - for all other kids in that class it was essential to their future life and they knew it.

  • hiAndrewQuinn 4 days ago

    The average student shouldn't be expected to remember more than 5% of what they learn through school because teaching them to use a computer program for half an hour is too hard? That's bleak.

    • pwillia7 3 days ago

      _if_ teaching them to use a computer program for half an hour is too hard.

alkonaut 4 days ago

> Your kid's inability to focus should not be the reason my kid can no longer remember his material.

The books are brought back (at a cost) because the kids have proven to learn better from books, or a mix of mediums. They haven't, and won't, use only physical or only digital material. They'll use a mix.

  • hiAndrewQuinn 4 days ago

    You need to measure long term remembrance of the material, not short-term learning. A 5% increase in the speed of children learning a fact for the first time doesn't matter if the fact has disappeared from all their brains 6 months later, but to accomplish the latter at scale, there's no substitute - you need some kind of spaced repetition system. Otherwise you may as well have not taught the fact at all, and let them spend the time having fun or getting some exercise instead.

    • dagss 3 days ago

      Is your idea that 6 to 15 year olds are going to suddenly discover Anki cards on their own and start using them? How high is that %?

      I think you should focus more on teachers introducing Anki cards and less on not throwing screens out then, in a sense. I mean, the fact that screens supports something that isn't currently being widely used anyway isn't a very strong argument to keep them.

      (And well, the argument against introducing it is that likely very small % of 6 to 15 years are able to or motivated to follow a system like that.)

      And the school system already provide ample spaced repetition because there is repetition each year from previous year (at least in Norway, sure Sweden is similar).

      The status quo in Norway is horrible, screens have destroyed education system (I have two kids going through it).

      I am sure there are better ways to use screens and that is what the proponents always say. But the burden of proof should have been on those introducing screens not the other way around.

      There is so much being lost now; ability to concentrate, ability to use a paper and pen as an extension of your brain (as I often do when solving a tough problem).

    • dambi0 4 days ago

      I don’t think education is purely about remembering facts.

      For one, often we teach things initially in simple terms as a way of building up to more complicated explanations. Failing to forget the simpler facts would be a learning failure to a degree.

      Secondly, we want people to learn what to do with facts, how to handle and interpret new information, focusing solely on recall doesn’t cover this either.

      Optimizing repetition for things we do want to be remembered is certainly a useful technique, but it isn’t the only or perhaps even primary goal of education.

      • hiAndrewQuinn 3 days ago

        >[O]ften we teach things initially in simple terms as a way of building up to more complicated explanations. Failing to forget the simpler facts would be a learning failure to a degree.

        I've never found remembering the simplified explanation to be a hindrance to learning the more complicated explanation. Quite the opposite, in fact.

        I have found times where forgetting the simple explanation before ever getting to the more complicated one meant it felt like I was learning the complicated one from scratch.

        >[W]e want people to learn what to do with facts, how to handle and interpret new information, focusing solely on recall doesn’t cover this either.

        You can't learn any of that stuff without having the facts at hand first, however.

        More importantly, "recall" is a much broader subject than it may sound at first: The ability to tackle novel mathematical theorems is based largely upon one's recall of prior proofs, which I have found to be just as valuable a target for spaced repetition approaches as any. But even if it turned out that wasn't the case, simply separating one's school day into an hour or two of "recall work" followed by 5-6 hours of "dynamic work" where we work with and elaborate upon facts that everyone in the class is statistically guaranteed to remember sounds like a much better use of one's time.

    • alkonaut 4 days ago

      I have no idea what the actual science referenced here is on this but I'm sure whatever they used to convince people to spend that much money is based on science that isn't just "the tests go better" but actually "the learning is better".

      And spaced repetition has been part of education since forever hasn't it. Yes it's slightly easier with a PDF. But you'd have to assume they thought of that too...

      • hiAndrewQuinn 3 days ago

        >I'm sure whatever they used to convince people to spend that much money is based on science that isn't just "the tests go better" but actually "the learning is better".

        Likewise, I'm sure that science is weaker than it first appears.

        I can point you to dozens of studies showing spaced repetition is robust and effective, across a wide variety of domains.

        >[S]paced repetition has been part of education since forever hasn't it. Yes it's slightly easier with a PDF. But you'd have to assume they thought of that too...

        In fact I only found out about spaced repetition near the end of high school, so no, I wouldn't call it "part of education since forever". In fact I consider the fact it isn't a topic we scream about from the hilltops and make it a known thing for students a great civilization-wide error. It seems closer to an open secret that was a lot less well known even just a decade ago.

        It's also not "slightly" easier with a PDF, it's much easier. Individual cards that would take much longer to create by hand (image occlusions in particular) take less than a minute with software. There is a reason I insist upon using ebooks these days, paper books just can't compete with that kind of efficiency.

golly_ned 4 days ago

What would stop a kid from doing the same with physical books rather than PDFs?

  • hiAndrewQuinn 4 days ago

    You can't screenshot a physical book nearly as easily as a PDF. That's an issue for making flashcards out of a whole host of useful informational visuals, not to mention stuff that is just plain hard to communicate in plain text.

fn-mote 4 days ago

Downvotes should not be for disagreeing with content!!

  • add-sub-mul-div 4 days ago

    I suppose it depends on how you think of free speech:

    1. Free speech means I should be able to say anything (or in this case vote in any manner) that's legal, and that's the only consideration.

    2. Free speech is a foundation for a higher level goal of a society that also values etiquette, respect, and discretion.

  • cooper_ganglia 4 days ago

    That is quite literally what they are for!

    • dagss 3 days ago

      Downvotes is for removing thoughtless comments and spam.

      I try to upvote someone making a well thought out argument that brings clarity to the discussion even if I disagree with it.

      And I try to downvote something I agree with if it was stated in an incoherent manner.

  • hiAndrewQuinn 4 days ago

    I don't begrudge them for downvoting. They are, nonetheless, wrong in their belief that a return to printed books makes long term sense.

    • dambi0 3 days ago

      Do you have any reasons for this beyond ease of reproducing portions of the text to drill yourself to remember it verbatim?

      • hiAndrewQuinn 3 days ago

        Yes. Over 12 years of use I have consistently found spaced repetition to be the most enjoyable way to learn basically anything, and essentially the only way to ensure things I don't regularly use as part of my job continue to be things I can remember. Some subjects I have in rotation at the moment: Finnish, Haskell, SQLite database internally, cash management and financial jargon, old photos and video clips of my childhood cat who I loved dearly.

        But, more to the point: You seem confused as to the true generality of the technique. Flashcards can be used in much more interesting ways than just checking to see if you can recite all the lines of Homer correctly or something.

        The vast majority of cards I have are questions of understanding - e.g. a card like "How many unique strands of DNA can be made from 100 A-T pairs and 100 C-G pairs?" You can't memorize all those digits. You need to remember how to solve the problem, which is quite simple, but not so simple it's worthless for a non-mathematician to solve without pen and paper.