Comment by edude03

Comment by edude03 4 days ago

14 replies

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As a heavy container user myself - I've been using containers since I needed to build my own 3.x kernel to test them - docker doesn't solve the reproducibility problem nix solves - IE, I can make a Dockerfile that does `RUN curl foo.com/install.sh` and who knows if that'll work ever again. Nix on the other hand doesn't allow you to do IO during builds[^0] only describe the effect of doing the IO.

[0]: Though apparently darwin (mac) doesn't support sandboxing by default, so you can bypass that but anyway

cge 3 days ago

>who knows if that'll work ever again

Unless you restrict your nix files to specific channel revisions, which when I had to deal with it was poorly documented, and involved searching through specific channel commit hashes in a particularly opaque way, you also can't know that your nix derivations will ever work again.

A number of people on my field used nix as a way to make their research code repositories reproducible, and everything broke within around three years.

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  • edude03 3 days ago

    Yeah that's a ux papercut - pre flakes nixpkgs was always the nixpkgs on your machine. There is docs but if you're not expecting that to happen you wouldn't think to look up the docs.

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    • lreeves 2 days ago

      I think expecting everyone to enable a still-experimental feature is more than a papercut.

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XorNot 3 days ago

You can just store the actual container though. Which will reproduce the environment exactly, it's just not a guidebook on how it was built.

The value of most reproducibility at the Dockerfile is that we're actually agnostic to getting a byte-exact reproduction: what we want is the ability to record what was important and effect upgrades.

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  • lmm 3 days ago

    > Which will reproduce the environment exactly, it's just not a guidebook on how it was built.

    By that logic every binary artifact is a "reproducible build". The point of reproducibility isn't just to be able to reproduce the exact same artifact, it's to be able to make changes that have predictable effects.

    > The value of most reproducibility at the Dockerfile is that we're actually agnostic to getting a byte-exact reproduction: what we want is the ability to record what was important and effect upgrades.

    More or less true. But we don't have that, because of what grandparent said; if a Dockerfile used to work and now doesn't, and there's an apt-get update in it, who knows what version it was getting back when it was working, or how to fix the problem?

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    • photonthug 3 days ago

      I do get the theoretical annoyance of how it’s technically not reproducible, but in practice most containers are pulled and not built from scratch. If you’re really concerned about that apt-get then besides a container registry you’re going to host a private package repository too, or install a versioned tarball from a public URL, but check the hash of whatever you’re downloading and put that hash in the dockerfile.

      So in practice.. if the build described in the dockerfile breaks, you notice when you’re changing / extending the dockerfile.. which is the time and place where you’d expect to need to know. My guess is that most people complaining about deterministic builds for containers are not using registries for storing images, and are not deploying to platforms like k8s. If your process is, say, shipping dockerfiles to EC2 and building them in situ with “compose up” or something, then of course it won’t be very deterministic and you’re at the mercy of many more network failures, etc

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      • lmm 3 days ago

        > If you’re really concerned about that apt-get then besides a container registry you’re going to host a private package repository too, or install a versioned tarball from a public URL, but check the hash of whatever you’re downloading and put that hash in the dockerfile.

        Right, but if you're doing that then you probably don't need to bother with the docker part at all.

        > you notice when you’re changing / extending the dockerfile.. which is the time and place where you’d expect to need to know

        You notice, sure, but you can't see what it was. Like, sure, it's better than it failing when you come to deploy it, but you're still in the position of having to do software archaeology to figure out how it ever worked in the first place.

        Like, for me the main use case for reproducible builds is "I need to make a small change to this component that was made by someone who left the company 3 years ago and has been quietly running since then", and you want to be able to just run the build and be confident it's going to work. You don't necessarily need to build something byte-for-byte identical to the thing that's currently running, but you do need to build something equivalent. The reproducibility isn't important per se but the declarativeness is, and with Docker you don't get that.

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      • XorNot 3 days ago

        The issue is it's why are you trying to be reproducible. The best use case is proving authenticity: that the source code became the binary code as written, but we're so far away from that that it's not realistic.

        My dream system would be CI which gives me a gigantic object graph and can sign the source code from the ground up for every single thing including the compiler, so when a change happens you can drill down to what changed, and what the diffs were.

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    • cpuguy83 3 days ago

      None of this has anything to do with Dockerfile but the tools used within.

      Nix provides the tooling to do reproducible builds. Meanwhile docker is a wrapper around the tools you choose.

      Also just to note, docker does allow you disable network access during builds. Beyond Dockerfile, which is a high level DSL, the underlying tech can do this per build step (in buildkit LLB).

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  • edude03 3 days ago

    I'm not talking about a bit perfect reproduction though, just being able to understand dependencies. Take for example a simple Dockerfile like

    ``` FROM python:latest ADD . RUN pip install foo ```

    If I run this today, and I run this a year from now, I'm going to different versions of `python` and `foo` and there is no way (with just the Dockerfile) to know which version of `foo` and `python` were intended.

    Nix on the other hand, forces me to use a git sha[^0] of my dependency; there is no concept of a mutable input. So to your point it's hard to 'upgrade' from version a -> b in a controlled fashion if you don't know what `a` even was.

    [0]: or the sha256 of the depedency which yes, I understand that's not easy for humans to use.

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    • ofrzeta 3 days ago

      Well, what about "FROM python:3.18" and using requirements.txt or something like that? I mean, running an arbitrary Python version will get you in trouble anyway.

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      • viraptor 3 days ago

        Depends on the repository used, actual version revision of Python, compiled features, the way the requirements file is written, the way the current version of pip resolves them, the base is that Python image and a lot of other things. Doing that gives you maybe 30% of the way towards something reproducible and consistent.

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      • neobrain 3 days ago

        There's no mechanism to enforce this is done consistently. With nix, there is.

        The degree to which this guarantee is useful or necessary depends on your use case.

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