Comment by fidotron

Comment by fidotron 11 days ago

9 replies

> Most Unity games look like very bad, even with fancy shaders, normal mapping and other techniques.

This seems to be an increasingly common point of view among those of a certain age.

It is definitely the case that the art of a certain sort of texture mapping has been lost. The example I go back to is Ikaruga, where the backgrounds are simply way better than they have any right to be, especially a very simple forest effect early on. Some of the PS2 era train simulators also manage this.

The problem is these all fall apart when you have a strong directional light source like the sun pointed at shiny objects, and the player moves around. If you want to do overcast environments with zero dynamic objects though you totally could bypass a lot of modern hacks.

speeder 11 days ago

Yes. And the thing is, some modern games ARE overcast with no dynamic lights, and then go on to use Lumen of all things. This was the case with Silent Hill remake, and that thing runs very slowly, looks WORSE on PS5 Pro, the grass looks worse than in older games and so on.

Seriously, the plot of Silent Hill was invented to justify optimization hacks, you have a permanent foggy space called "fog space" to make easier to manage objects on screen, and the remake instead stupidly waste a ton of processing trying to make some realistic (instead of supernatural looking) fog.

  • OCASMv2 11 days ago

    It's not the 90s anymore. Using basic linear fog with ultra-realistic assets would just look terribly out of place.

    The point about Lumen stands though. Baked lighting would have been much better in this case.

  • realusername 10 days ago

    It's worse than that, in the Silent hill remake, everything is being rendered behind the fog too, yes you read that right, they render a whole town with complex gemetry to hide it with fog after so you see none of it.

jameshart 11 days ago

Most good looking games built with Unity don’t ’look like Unity games’ so people don’t think of them as constituting an example of ‘what Unity games look like’. So the archetype for ‘what a Unity game looks like’ remains at ‘pretty rough’.

The ‘art’ of making stuff look good has not been lost at all. It’s just very unevenly distributed.

When a team has good model makers and good texture artists and good animators and good visual programming, it looks great, whether it’s built in Unreal or Unity or a bespoke engine or whatever.

  • fidotron 11 days ago

    I don’t think that is what people are getting at, since they uniformly want more texture detail.

    There are a lot of technically polished Unity titles that get knocked because they look like very well rendered plasticine, for want of a better description.

    For example, there was an argument on here not too long ago where various people pushing the “old graphics were better” (simplification) did not understand or care that the older titles had such limited lighting models.

    In the games industry I recall a lot of private argument on the subject of if the art teams will ever understand physically based models, and this was one of the major motivations for a lot of rigs to photograph things and make materials automatically. (In AAA since like 2012). The now widespread adoption of the Disney model, because it is understandable, has contributed to a bizarre uniformity in how things look that I do think some find repulsive.

    Edit to add: I am not sure this is a new phenomenon. Go back to the first showing of Wind Waker for possibly the most notorious reaction.

Tanoc 10 days ago

There's an insistence that materials can overcome lacking texturing and normal mapping. It's not true, but it's a result of a lot of marketing fluff from things like Unreal Engine being misunderstood or misrepresented. Did you know that in Super Mario Sunshine, for "sharp" shadows the Gamecube was unable to render, that they actually used flattened meshes instead? In Delfino Plaza the shadows under the canopies near the Shine Gate are actually meshes instead of textures. Meanwhile the tile plaza that the mesh shadows lie on looks so nice because it's not one giant texture, it's actually several dozen 128x128px textures all properly UV mapped. In a modern game you'd get two brick textures and a noise pattern to blend them, and they'd all be 2048x2048px with the shadows being raytraced so they have sharper edges.

Ironically as we've gotten hardware with more VRAM and higher bus speeds we've decided to go with bigger textures instead of more of them. The same with normal mapping, instead of using normal mapping alongside more subdivided models we've just decided that normal maps are obsolete and physically modelling all the details is technologically forward way. Less pointy spheres is one thing, but physically modelling all the cracks and scrapes on the sphere is just stupid and computationally wasteful.

  • fidotron 10 days ago

    > Ironically as we've gotten hardware with more VRAM and higher bus speeds we've decided to go with bigger textures instead of more of them. The same with normal mapping, instead of using normal mapping alongside more subdivided models we've just decided that normal maps are obsolete and physically modelling all the details is technologically forward way.

    This right here is precisely what I alluded to in another reply as the motivator for generating meshes and PBR materials from controlled photography. Basically you now have enough parameters per texel, which interact in distinctly unintuitive ways, that authoring them is a nightmare, hence people resorting to what you describe.

  • OCASMv2 10 days ago

    Easier to market "more resolution" and "more polygons" than masterful use of uv mapping.

bombcar 11 days ago

You can get something working quite quickly (especially with things like Unity) - but to get them looking amazing takes extra skill and polish.

Even a "2D" game like Factorio has amazing polish difference between original release, 1.0, and today.

(This can very obviously be seen with modded games, because the modded assets often are "usable" but don't look anywhere near as polished as the main game.)