Comment by pmarreck

Comment by pmarreck 9 days ago

22 replies

I learned this in my very first corporate job at Factset and it made me sick of them; it's the main reason why I've worked at a bunch of startups.

If the manager likes you, they will see the things you do in a positive light.

If the manager doesn't like you, they will see the things you do in a negative light.

So obviously, the solution is to optimize for always keeping the manager happy... except that that is a little dehumanizing.

It's basically like any relationship coupled with confirmation bias. Basically, if you get onto the shit-list of your partner or friend or manager, it is difficult to get off it. People seem to automatically polarize their opinions about other people (probably due to confirmation bias) and then just apply post-hoc justification.

If nothing else, I have gotten very good at noticing the change of tone when the point-of-no-return is reached (perhaps because I feel like I am terrible at avoiding it). You'll feel some queasiness/nausea after a conversation that went from friendly to critical based on something you perhaps flubbed... you'll start blaming yourself (even though you probably didn't actually have a ton of control over the outcome). Something will feel "off." Things won't feel as harmonious anymore. Details will be off- you didn't get invited to an important meeting that you are pretty sure you would have been invited to months prior. A new hire will get approved, but without anyone checking in with you first. You will feel like you are on the defensive and are working "defensively"- you're struggling to complete work or put presentations together or whatever- you're not sleeping well- those are all the feel of the ring ropes against your back, because you're actually on them, and you're in denial. It's hard not to take personally; has anyone actually ever been put on a PIP that made it back to "stellar performer", or are PIPs purely just lip-service to a CYA for the inevitable layoff?

krisoft 9 days ago

The best ever advice I received from my dad, maybe the only advice he ever gave me, was exactly what you are writing here.

It was a few days before my first day at elementary school. He told me that teachers very quickly put people into little boxes. “The good students” vs the “troublemakers”. If you end up in the first basically no matter what you do they will see your output in a more positive light. They will forgive your mistakes as “momentary lapses”. If you are in the second category no matter what you do they will see your work in a negative light. If you do well that will be because you got lucky, or because you cheated. Or so they will think. And how they feel about you will affect your grades, your everyday, and your opportunities. And this is completely and utterly unfair, but this is how it is. You can’t change it, but you can learn to use it to your advantage.

So i put in some extra effort to the first few days of elementary school and coasting on that ever since. ;)

Later as i got older i learned that managers work the same way. Obviously it doesn’t mean that one can completely neglect the actual work, but one’s manager’s (and manager’s manager’s) perception is paramount.

  • bravura 9 days ago

    "Give a man a reputation as an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon." - Mark Twin

  • irjustin 9 days ago

    100% agreed. This is very much human nature and impossible to avoid. I do this; you do this. We meet someone and very rapidly bucket them into whatever categories we've built over the years. When you're younger, it takes longer because those buckets aren't as well defined. But once I've played someone, it's very hard for them to move into another.

    My favorite clip that encapsulates this thread is from Suits[0]. Mike hates it, but first impressions matter.

    [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjQOu4cVm8c

    • pmarreck 9 days ago

      ha, haven’t been much of a TV show watcher in years (I play games for entertainment) and never heard of this show (nor did I know that Meghan Markle was a TV actress before now, LOL… also, damn she was fine in 2011!) but this one looks entertaining, especially because I live 40 minutes from NYC… Anyway, insightful clip!

  • Moru 9 days ago

    Yes, most people get to this insight and gives it back to their kids so they can get a head start in life. And for those that don't, there are enough movies for the kids/youth showing exactly how it works.

  • beryilma 8 days ago

    Along the same lines, if you are a bad student for whatever reason, the best thing you can do to improve your grades without any extra work is to ask questions during class and talk to your teacher before/after class. I guarantee results...

hinkley 9 days ago

Gottman has documented this phenomenon in romantic partnerships, and I personally think we overplay the differences in romantic versus other partnerships, like teamwork, mentor/mentee, boss/employee.

In a good relationship, neutral acts are seen as neutral. In a struggling relationship, neutral acts are interpreted as negative. They don't exactly come out and say it, but to an extent your problems with another person are all in your head, and there are things they can do about it but it's a lot of work, because any time you're not actively being awesome you might be getting construed as a shithead.

  • hackit2 9 days ago

    I think you've got it around backwards. Your trying to look for external validation instead of having a internal locus of control. It is nice to talk about observation of people and some how rationalize some inner monologue of some sort of internal mental model but it is just a exercise in conjecture.

    Just focus on developing your own set of qualities that you want from people. If people meet those qualities then great but if they don't then just move on. All you can do with people is sit down and shut up, and let them do what-ever they want to do, and then you get to decide if you want to participate in it or not.

    • lnenad 9 days ago

      In an ideal scenario maybe, but we are social animals and we don't always conscientiously choose whose emotional feedback we value (in the case of managers/mentors/etc we cannot even choose)

    • hinkley 8 days ago

      That’s quite a guess, and wrong.

      But I don’t know how you construe performance reviews as anything other than external validation/invalidation.

      My bank account cares if I give a shit what my boss thinks about my work.

sulam 9 days ago

Re: PIPs, it depends on how they’re used. For stronger managers, who address issues quickly, a PIP (even informal) can be effective at creating behavior change that sticks. However the way many companies practice them, they are simply a formal recognition by HR that things have gotten intolerable. The only way out of one of these other than leaving is to move to another team. Thankfully companies who practice this style of PIP are also usually full of junior managers who are easy to convince that they can “fix” whatever issues have caused the situation to arise.

  • eweise 9 days ago

    If its been documented then you're probably on your way out, or you should at least operate as if you are. I don't think a "stronger manager" would put you on an official PIP if they wanted to address the issue quickly. They would probably have a face to face discussion and let you know what the issue is. Nothing else is required.

    • sulam 8 days ago

      I know this forum is suspicious of managers on general principle, and that’s sometimes appropriate, especially the more layers there are between decisions your manager is executing vs where they were made. That said, it is my experience that some managers truly want people to improve when they’re operating below expectations at a given level, and furthermore that some people need that feedback written down, formally, for it to really land and produce change.

      I am happy to accept that the majority of cases where you’ve gotten a formal PIP that HR is involved with will end with the employee’s termination. I don’t have industry data on this but it would match both my actual experience and the experience of my peers as has been relayed to me over the years. But someone in that situation should be open to the possibility that they can truly succeed if the dominoes fall correctly. There are many signals along the way that will also inform you what your manager in turn believes and even HR sometimes gives themselves away despite the legal risks they are trained to avoid.

      Finally, there’s a spectrum of how people use the term PIP. At the far end is what you’ve described, a written document that exists to provide evidence in the event of litigation and is largely HR driven. However a manager can absolutely use the same structure and terminology and never involve HR and hopefully we both agree those are more likely to result in win-win outcomes. In fact the trend in this space is towards a continuous performance management environment where expectations are formally defined and updated and checked in on at least quarterly if not more frequently.

      • sulam 8 days ago

        One last thought before I stop thinking about this thread. Many places are now starting to adopt a policy where the company will offer a choice to the employee. Choice A is to run the PIP process, and live with the outcome. Choice B is effectively an immediate layoff with severance. These are sometimes referred to as PIP or PEP (Prompt Exit Program). If you truly believe all PIPs end in exits you may find it strange that companies would make this offer, but I think it’s a very healthy way to give the employee some agency in the process besides just dusting off their resume.

        • eweise 8 days ago

          Not strange at all. The company basically wants the PIP employee gone but puts them on a plan instead of firing immediately, so that they aren't sued. But its bad for the company having someone on a PIP who is liable to be disgruntled and poisoning the well. A PEP gets the employee out so they can't do damage.

  • dangerwill 9 days ago

    I'm sorry but even if you manage to resolve the PIP, it is always there in the HR records as a black mark. It will always make it easier (not guaranteed, but easier) to get hit in the next round of layoffs

supriyo-biswas 9 days ago

> It's basically like any relationship coupled with confirmation bias. Basically, if you get onto the shit-list of your partner or friend or manager, it is difficult to get off it.

On that note, the article "The Set-Up-To-Fail Syndrome" by the Harvard Business Review[1] covers similar ground and was discussed on HN[2].

[1] https://hbr.org/1998/03/the-set-up-to-fail-syndrome

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39879250

  • hunter-gatherer 9 days ago

    I normally brush this stuff off, but I have gone from a high performer to something lower in the past 6 months because my team got a new boss, and we are all miserable. I'm definitely in that cycle that is described in the Harvard Business Review. No matter what I do I can't seem to get off the shit list, and was just venting to my wife about it last week. Good to know it isn't just me.

  • unboxedtype 5 days ago

    Thanks so much for sharing this HBR article, it is so useful!

makz 9 days ago

1000% agree with this, couldn't have explained it better myself

jimmydddd 8 days ago

I vote for PIP's just being for documenting purposes for CYA.