Comment by globular-toast

Comment by globular-toast 10 months ago

24 replies

Big difference being Child went to France to train as a cook and spent a long time there (she learnt French). There were techniques and recipes that simply weren't available to the English speaking world at the time. It's different nowadays, especially with English being so much more dominant. It's easy for us to find someone French doing a video in English. As of about 10 years ago there was still a bit more to learn if you learnt French, but the amount of stuff left is shrinking.

For anyone who wants to learn to cook my advice is not to learn recipes but instead learn ingredients, tools and techniques. Good books like Child's Mastering the Art of French Cooking dedicate many pages to this before they get into recipes (this book incidentally sets out the ingredients better than any other cooking book or website I've ever seen). Where YouTube shines is the techniques. Books do an admirable job of describing kneading, but nothing beats seeing someone do it. That's how we really learn this stuff, and must of us don't have a parent to learn from these days. So watch YouTube videos, but pay extra special attention to what they are doing, more so than what they are saying (you could have just read that part).

maccard 10 months ago

> For anyone who wants to learn to cook my advice is not to learn recipes but instead learn ingredients, tools and techniques. Good books like Child's Mastering the Art of French Cooking dedicate many pages to this before they get into recipes

Hard, hard disagree here. Learn some recipes, enjoy eating some food that you've cooked for yourself. Cook some recipes you like for 6 months and _then_ start learning the techniques and fundamentals.

  • globular-toast 10 months ago

    I didn't say don't read or follow recipes like some kind of culinary monk. Using recipes is as important to a cook as reading programs is to a programmer. But the focus, if you want to learn to cook, should be on ingredients, tools and techniques. For a start, you will not enjoy making any recipe without a good knife. What's more, your execution will be terrible if you don't know what "finely diced onion" is supposed to be or how to make it, or how much "salt to taste" is. You won't enjoy it and will forever think restaurant/takeaway food is better than your own creations.

    Recipes are always written at a particular level of abstraction. Most won't tell you how to dice an onion, but many will tell you explicitly how to make a roux, without saying the word roux. Learning the basics means you can skim and assimilate recipes at a much higher level. Plenty of people can follow recipes but few can learn a recipe from first principles as there are far too many details. To learn a recipe you need to first learn the basics, then you find a recipe is rather easy to learn. Then once you can do that you have the power to tweak them or substitute ingredients etc. as necessary and/or desired.

  • dredmorbius 10 months ago

    I feel much the same way about food recipes as I do about tech how-to's which describe steps but not reasons.

    A simple statement of ingredients, processing, times, temperatures, etc., should get you something serviceable. But a guide which tells you what each ingredient, step, etc., is doing to the finished product is far more informative. Also those which let you know whether a value is a minimum or maximum, and how much flexibility there is to it. Much the same as a step-by-step systems admin guide works if everything goes right, but is entirely useless if you run up against a problem, in which case what you desperately need is troubleshooting and compensation/correction guidance.

    For example, if a sourdough bread-making recipe gives an instruction "autolyse for 30 minutes", is there any indication that going shorter or longer is possible, or even preferable? (In practice you can autolyse for hours if you choose to do so, 20--40 minutes is a minimum.) How sensitive is dough to overfermentation? What will more, or less, salt do? How does starter change its behaviour in warmer or cooler conditions? What's too warm? Is there such a thing as too cold? How should you adjust hydration for different doughs (whole wheat, rye, spelt, einkorn, semolina, etc. --- something I'm still learning FWIW, though generally WW more, rye less, spelt about the same). How does dough change with a longer cold ferment (1 day vs. 2, 3, or more)?

    A recipe is is a sequence with no flow or feedback logic to it. Techniques give you tools to control the process.

  • tpm 10 months ago

    I will try to give an example: you find a recipe you like at first glance and try to cook it. It's from East Asia and contains tofu, so you buy tofu, and if you live in Central Europe like me there is good chance the tofu will be completely different to what should the tofu in that recipe be like. Same for the rice (and other ingredients). The result will not be ideal, to say the least, because while the recipe might have been good and you may followed it correctly, the fundamentals weren't there.

    • imp0cat 10 months ago

      Improvisation is an art in itself. Tofu is easy, try recreating something like Osaka-style okonomiyaki with European ingredients, now that is a challenge!

  • mhuffman 10 months ago

    So yes and no in my opinion. First, almost all recipes are written from being cooked in gas stoves and ovens. However, many people have electric. That alone will cause you a problem. Second, tweaking or hacking a little bit of a recipe is a great way to learn what techniques and ingredients do while not breaking the bank. At some point, you will have learned ingredients, tools, and techniques and you can just "cook". You know, like your grandmother could just cook somehow. It was from practice and experience and she always had her own "secret" recipes.

  • slightwinder 10 months ago

    You learn a recipe to eat. And you learn fundamentals and techniques to cook.

    Learning a recipe doesn't give you much in terms of cooking-skills. But with skills, you can create or adapt any recipe to your own demand.

  • gowld 10 months ago

    Alton Brown's "I'm Just Here for the Food: Food + Heat = Cooking" is a fun intro too.

0xfeba 10 months ago

as someone who divorced and didn't want to be the 'mac and cheese dad', I found an older edition of "Williams Sonoma Cooking at Home" a really good beginner book. It goes over basic ingredients, seasonality, cooking methods, cooking tools, proper measuring, and complementary sides before hopping into recipes. I found all of these very valuable as _tons_ of recipes assume basic knowledge of it.

A lot of the recipes are quite involved though so now I tend to go for simpler ones, or pick-and-choose.

dragonwriter 10 months ago

> For anyone who wants to learn to cook my advice is not to learn recipes but instead learn ingredients, tools and techniques.

For anyone who wants to learn ingredients, tools, and techniques, my advice is to start by learning recipes, preferably from a source that explains both rationale and variations (America's Test Kitchen cookbooks are pretty good for this.)

  • mauvehaus 10 months ago

    The ATK cookbooks are fantastic, not only for explaining how the recipe works, but also explaining some of the things they tried that didn't make the cut and why they thought they didn't work.

    They also did a cookbook devoted to recipes for two people a while back. Love that.

  • schwartzworld 10 months ago

    The old _Good Eats_ tv show was great for this too. You can find most of the episodes on YouTube.

    Another good source is the book Ratio, which is almost like a tutorial in how to come up with your own recipes

  • cvoss 10 months ago

    > a source that explains both rationale and variations

    This is the key right here. Not all recipes are created equal. The terse ones are for people who already know what they're doing and just need a sketch to jog their memory. If that's not you, you need a thorough guide. But a guide that explains the why, beyond the how, is far more valuable.

    If you can't find such a resource, a good backup option is to search around for a variety of recipes for the same dish. By comparing them, you get an idea of what's critical, what's optional, what is safe to fudge, what you have to get right, etc.

    Knowing the why and what your end goal is also helps you adapt your methods to the tools you have on hand. Your stove and pots don't heat the same way your recipe author's stove and pots do. Your fruits aren't the same ripeness. "Cook on medium-high for 3 minutes" is not a very helpful instruction, because its precision is illusory.

    • com2kid 10 months ago

      > The terse ones are for people who already know what they're doing and just need a sketch to jog their memory.

      The day I reached that level was a wonderful feeling.

      Some of my favorite cookbooks just outright skip steps or don't bother writing down important pieces of information. You should know what to do by now, so here is some general guidelines, go at it.

      Getting to that point took awhile though, and IMHO the key to doing it faster is to be mindful of all the steps that are taken while cooking. Understanding why there is a wet and a dry mixing bowl, understanding why sometimes there isn't. Understanding why glazes are used vs a marinade[1], and knowing why some things are cooked low and slow vs hot and fast, etc.

      [1] As an aside, I estimate that 90% of marinade recipes in the western world are pure trash - dry rubs are useless, marinades without an acidic ingredient in them are useless, and any marinades with an acid that suggests you need more than 8 hours is wrong on the math.

      • Karrot_Kream 10 months ago

        IMO marinades are really fun to experiment with because you can just taste them. I cook a lot of veg proteins (tempeh, tofu, soya chunks, TVP, etc) and often marinade them. I'm pretty used to elaborate balances of salt, msg, acid, and other flavors. The way I test it out is just to stick a pinky in or use a tasting spoon and taste. You want your marinade to be heavily seasoned than what you're marinading of course. Acid is an essential component of a marinade.

dredmorbius 10 months ago

How to Read a French Fry is the book which introduced the idea of a science of cooking to me. I'd caught a 2001 interview on Fresh Air at the time, which is available by the Fresh Air Archive:

<https://freshairarchive.org/segments/russ-parsons>

The book itself is at the Internet Archive:

<https://archive.org/details/howtoreadfrenchf0000pars>

There are far more titles and now websites on the topic, quite probably improving on Russ's effort. But the basics are sound.

Since the Covid-19 pandemic I've taken to baking sourdough bread, which is its own whole set of knowledge and experiments. Every batch is a new discovery, though all have been edible. Worst error to date has been forgetting the salt (much worse than leaving the oven temp too high).

  • globular-toast 10 months ago

    Harold McGee's On Food and Cooking is essential if you're interested in this stuff.

jillesvangurp 10 months ago

You are not wrong. Watching people on Youtube go through the process is how I absorbed knowledge. The fun thing with people like Jamie Oliver is that he is very loose and imprecise. He doesn't use table spoons, cups, and what not to measure things out. I don't print out or read recipes, ever.

It's all about techniques and ingredients.

  • marginalia_nu 10 months ago

    I'll glance at recipes to figure out how something is done, when I don't know how to do it. Usually stuff that's from different cuisines that I'm used to. It's hard to e.g. invent a recipe for borscht from first principles if all you know is that it's got beets in it.

    Most of my process is just cooking a dish (or an ingredient) over and over again until I've figured out to make it fantastic. It's a great way to become very flexible and learn how to work around missing ingredients.