Comment by avianlyric

Comment by avianlyric 10 months ago

11 replies

This is a commercial product, that’s actually been installed and being used. The magic here is a “transparent” antenna. The magic is a carefully tuned, small and innocuous antenna, that when mounted on a window it’s been tuned for, allows 5G to easily propagate through the glass.

Glass facades almost universally use Low-E glass to avoid turning the building into a huge greenhouse. Problem for 5G, is that low-e glass is remarkably good at blocking 5G frequencies[1]. Pair that with 5G smaller propagation distances, and issues of finding viable locations to mount 5G antenna becomes a real problem.

This product neatly solves that problem by allowing carriers to mount these antenna on the inside of a buildings facade, while providing coverage outside the building. Which will substantially reduce the cost and difficulty of installing 5G masts. You can place all your sensitive equipment in normal building voids, without the need for bulky and ugly weather proofing, and you need to break the buildings weather tight seals (which a landlord isn’t gonna let you do without significant assurances you’re going the cover the costs of any water that comes through) to run cables to external antenna.

To make all of this viable, someone has had to do a fair bit of work to figure out how to build an antenna that effectively incorporates the low-e window it’s attached to, into its RF design. The fact the physical antenna is made of glass and partial transparent isn’t actually the interesting part. That’s likely been done because glass is a very rigid material that will make it easy to ensure the conductive parts of the antenna are kept at a specific distance from the window it’s mounted on, to ensure the correct RF coupling occurs.

[1] https://www.ranplanwireless.com/gb/resources/low-e-glass/

SOLAR_FIELDS 10 months ago

I like that this also solves the problem of historically there being bad reception in between really tall buildings downtown. If you can embed towers in the facade of a building this problem is significantly reduced.

kurthr 10 months ago

Ok, so this is the final commercial design. It's inside the window. You can see the electrodes on the small glass sheet (100cm x 25cm?). There are 8 coax connections to 8 patch antennas. They don't cover the entire window and since I can see them they aren't very transparent (that's pretty normal for off angle low resistance ITO since you can't easily match the index shifts with AR films). The antennas aren't very big (why would they be for GHz+ frequencies) and they still have to go through the windows.

I don't know that a white box on the inside of the same window (which covered the wired coax connections) would be that much more conspicuous, especially from the outside. Maybe they require special exterior windows, but those don't seem to be part of the very visible "transparent" antennas. If you lowered the drop ceiling anything would be less conspicuous on the inside.

  • avianlyric 10 months ago

    > If you lowered the drop ceiling anything would be less conspicuous on the inside.

    The product is for fitting into existing buildings, with minimal impact. Being inconspicuous is a secondary concern, it only needs to be inconspicuous enough to not be obvious. Drop the ceiling on an entire floor to hide would not be low impact.

    As to a plastic white box, sure you could do that. But it would be a plastic box that contains some kind of antenna on a rigid substrate. At which point you might as well just use glass as the substrate, and get rid of the extra enclosure, and manufacturing fiddlyness involved in assembly.

    The cost of a glass antenna vs one housed in a plastic box is going to be negligible compared to overall cost of the installed equipment. At that point you might as well just use glass, simplify the construction and install process, and get a product that’s less visually distracting as a bonus.

    • kurthr 10 months ago

      PCBs and antennas in general are cheaper than glass. I think that's why this is considered special. Also note that they can do UWB and all sorts of other things. It's not like these glass antennas are using a substrate that already exists, they're just mounting something with exposed wires to a semitransparent 1ft/3ft piece of expensive specialty glass. Any change they have to do to the low e windows, they have to do for both.

      The idea that a plastic enclosure is difficult, expensive, or fiddly, is kinda hilarious. Maybe you'd like your monitor or laptop or microwave oven to have it's fiddly enclose removed, but I don't think it's wise.

venusenvy47 10 months ago

I'm a little disappointed this IEEE article doesn't give any technical details. As an EE, I'd like to know what they are using for the antenna wire conductor. The quote from the article says it's a transparent conductor, which I've never heard of.

“I don’t think the idea for using transparent conductive materials as an antenna existed before"

  • kurthr 10 months ago

    The touch screen on your laptop/phone are definitely made with "transparent' conductors. These range from ITO and Silver Nanotubes on LCDs to patterned aluminum mesh (Samsung's OCTA is On Cell Touch AMOLED) and semi-transparent cathode (~10nm Ag/Mg ground current return layer) on OLEDs.

    Those electrodes are literally used as capacitive antennas to detect the position of your fingers and they range from about 300ohm/sq to 1ohm/sq. Depending on the capacitive coupling they range from GHz to 100kHz bandwidths.

    • venusenvy47 10 months ago

      I was trying to understand if "transparent" was literally a property of the metal, of if it just means "so thin that you can't see it".

      • kurthr 10 months ago

        That depends. For ITO it can be quite transparent (80-90%), if you do a good job of matching the index of refraction (otherwise you get weird yellowish reflections and blue transmission). For the nanotubes and metal mesh, it looks fairly neutral (grey >90% transmission), if they do a good job darkening the metal so it doesn't reflect. The OLED meshes are only 2-3um wide and actually aligned with the display sub-pixels (to allow their light through) and their reflections are blocked by circular polarizing films which help make the display black as well.

        Just for clarification, the reason that ITO can be transparent even though it is conducting is due to a fairly novel effect where the bandgap of the material is just wide enough to allow most visible light (red-blue) through while still allowing electron conduction (degenerate bands due to Sn doping?). It's pretty cool. Most conductors (metals) have conduction bands that reflect visible light (though they might let X-rays or IR through). Most transparent materials (eg. glass, water) are insulators which have wide band gaps, but no conduction carriers (electrons or holes).

        One counter example is Ruby (chromium doped sapphire) which looks red. If you heat it up the bandgap narrows and you it turns dark/black because only IR can get through, while if you cool it in LN2 they will turn light pink as the bandgap width increases!